What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

[Fireinfolding]

I'm confused as to why when a person believes something to be true, they automatically attribute it to the Holy Spirit working in them. But when they believe it to be false, then it is the belief of men.

Interesting Oblio, you dont believe what you do because you believe the truth in Christ confirmed it to you? You also dont believe what you believe (to be false) to be contrived of men (with no leading of the Spirit) to come to such a conclusion?

You dont believe that men can have doctrines? The apostles say to the contrary of that.

We prove ourselves as a workman unto God (not unto men). One can test and prove a thing as we are instructed. God is not dead and more then able to make something clear who gives of His Spirit.

Why did Paul say the same Oblio? Why did Jesus ask who MEN say He is verses who THEY say He is which was GIVEN THEM of God? He puts the difference.

Theres the little matter of discernment.

Besides Oblio, its God who sends the powerful delusion to believe the lie, we are just always convinced its not to ourselves He sends it. Why would it be sent except they receive not a LOVE for the truth and although various voices are resounding various things it dont shake you none being convinced in yourself because you know Whom you have believed.

We are to have the witness "in ourself" of which witness is true and no lie and the apostles know who they were speaking to and who would hear and know the truth concerning that.

Even the apostles admonished us to not let ones faith rest upon the wisdom of men but the power of God (Christ). We all rest it somewheres dont we?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Oblio]

Interesting Oblio, you dont believe what you do because you believe the truth in Christ confirmed it to you? You also dont believe what you believe (to be false) to be contrived of men (with no leading of the Spirit) to come to such a conclusion?

If I did, I would be the Pope

 

[Fireinfolding]

If I did, I would be the Pope

I dont think so Oblio

However you chose to spin it

 

[Oblio]

Actually FiF, you have confirmed the point of confusion that you responded to. You simply assign the Holy Spirit to unfailingly tell you what is true and what is false. The only problem with that line of reasoning is that it makes you by definition, infallible. Same as the Pope, except it is in ALL things, not just the limited scope that is given the Pope.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Actually FiF, you have confirmed the point of confusion that you responded to. You simply assign the Holy Spirit to unfailingly tell you what is true and what is false. The only problem with that line of reasoning is that it makes you by definition, infallible. Same as the Pope, except it is in ALL things, not just the limited scope that is given the Pope.

No it does not make me infallible, howso? HE (not me) is THE Truth and learning of Him we are to do. Our faith is to rest on Him (who is infallible) not ourselves or on men (who are fallible). That doesnt make any of us anything at all just because one waits on Him concerning anything.

I dont get such reasonings. Trusting the Spirit of God does not make one infallible, thats way offbase to me. Lording over others faith (to me) sets oneself up as being infallible forgetting the Lord altogether in seeking His preeminent place as Head.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Oblio]

So what if two people believe that the Holy Spirit has confirmed the truth to them, but they both believe contradictory things. Which of the two is correct ? By your scenario, they both are because the truth of Christ confirmed it each one.

Simple example:

Person A believes through the HS in OSAS

Person B believes through the HS in OSNAS

Who is right ?

 

[jckstraw72]

im right. the other guy is misinterpreting.

 

[Fireinfolding]

So what if two people believe that the Holy Spirit has confirmed the truth to them, but they both believe contradictory things. Which of the two is correct ? By your scenario, they both are because the truth of Christ confirmed it each one.

Not really, how do you come up with that?

Simple example:

Person A believes through the HS in OSAS

Person B believes through the HS in OSNAS

Who is right ?

Though I dont know what those abreviations stand for we are to test all things.

Peter wasnt believing or walking uprightly in the truth through the Holy Spirit when he feared the circumcision and did what he did. Peter was fallible, he had pitfalls, those of understanding can fall that they be refined, sifted and purified.

ALL knowledge is listed as being IN PART thats ALL knowledge (ALL understanding, ALL faith, ALL mysteries etc) its not ~the perfect~. Our love is being perfected without which we are nothing. Otherwise we just have a big book of right answers (in the FORM of knowledge) without love (LIGHT of knowledge) and it makes us absolutely nothing if we dont have this within us. We cant even be known as His disciples without having a love for one another (being taken seriously by the world). At some point we obey from the heart the manner of doctrine delivered to us unto the unfiegned love we are to have for one another and walk in the Light as He is in the Light.

Any sincere seeker or workman in the word will eventually be adding experience to his knowledge and putting into practice the things learned wherein the doctrine of Christ becomes more then a mental assesment but an empowered life in fellowship with the Father through Christ.

The disciples did not understand perfectly at the first. They came to an understanding on doctrine, most importantly is the understanding Christ come to give us is to know the Father and we add to our faith those things (even as instructed by Peter) which should be in us and abound that make us so that we are not unbarren or unfruitful in our knowledge of HIM. That which surpasses knowledge itself (as knowing the love of God in Christ) surpasses the same.

The doctrine of Christ is ~after godliness~ not a substitute form of it. Not always having the right answers but the right heart and right life (in a nutshell).

Theres allowable differences, convictions and without a doubt differences in understanding due to the fact we have all received a "measure of" faith and that measure is added to and increased of God. We live up to where we have attained and grow from there. Nevertheless always putting our faith and trust in Him from whom our hearts must never depart because without Him we can do nothing at all.

I ignore half the "do you believe in THIS" ? stuff because some of it (as I am convicted) of whom I am to obey makes it of no consequence or conviction to me.

Theres depth to these things not just black and white letters to nod in agreement on. Mentally agreeing without being in accord in the Spirit is like saying ~peace peace~ where in truth there is none. Because they honestly dont see it the same, they'd need to lie under the pretence of truth. Not sure if I put that exactly that way I would have liked to but theres my best shot.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[jckstraw72]

so when you play Bible wars with someone all night and both sides swear they're hearing from the Spirit, how do you resolve the issue at hand?

 

[Fireinfolding]

so when you play Bible wars with someone all night and both sides swear they're hearing from the Spirit, how do you resolve the issue at hand?

How do you before the Lord?

 

[jckstraw72]

How do you before the Lord?

the faith was delivered once and for all to the saints -- there are no issues to resolve, only answers to be taught.

 

[Fireinfolding]

the faith was delivered once and for all to the saints -- there are no issues to resolve, only answers to be taught.

The faith in Christ yes.

I havent a clue to what issues you are generalizing about or what answers your implying need to be taught so I cant even guess. There are so many weird things being taught out there its hard to know.

 

[jckstraw72]

I havent a clue to what issues you are generalizing about or what answers your implying need to be taught so I cant even guess. There are so many weird things being taught out there its hard to know.

is salvation once saved always saved, or can you lose salvation -- that is just one example of something that ppl argue over -- and they can each throw out Bible verses that "prove" their point, but in the end, how do you know which is right?

 

[Oblio]

Though I dont know what those abreviations stand for we are to test all things.

Uh huh, and you both test all things and still come up with mutually exclusive conclusions. But by your paradigm, both of you are right.

A == !A


OSAS: Once Saved Always Saved

OSNAS: Once Saved NOT Always Saved

They can't both be true, but thousands on either side are led by the 'Spirit' to believe they believe the truth. By your method, whatever I believe to be true, I believe through Christ to be true, therefore it must be true. Explain why the other person, who believes COMPLETELY opposite to me, who is also 'born again' and is led by the 'Spirit of Christ' to his belief, can also be correct. Either God is lying to one of them, or one of them is not being led by God. But your truth paradigm does not allow for the second option. The only other option is the first, that God is lying to one of them. This leads us to the conclusion that either God is not what you (and I) say He is, or your paradigm is faulty.

 

[Fireinfolding]

is salvation once saved always saved, or can you lose salvation -- that is just one example of something that ppl argue over -- and they can each throw out Bible verses that "prove" their point, but in the end, how do you know which is right?

Maybe the question itself (or attitude toward ones salvation) is off? I refrain from my posting how I see it because most honestly Im not particularly clear on it. To side with either without looking at the whole thing is not a smart thing to do.

I just keep my eyes on Him, continue to apply myself to learning and wait till He makes something clear. He doesnt do that with me in one day, others (He might) but unless I feel He confirmed something to me and I can (for the most part) support it I wont touch it. That (to me) would be going beyond my measure.

I'm not familiar with the two opposing arguments on it. I'm not in the habit of bothering to look at either side. I just learn as Im led to at any given time, a little here and there and focus on the now (In Him) which is the best way I can put it.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

Uh huh, and you both test all things and still come up with mutually exclusive conclusions. But by your paradigm, both of you are right.

A == !A

Oblio, if you cant speak to me in way I can understand I will not understand a single word you say. I never do anyway.

OSAS: Once Saved Always Saved

OSNAS: Once Saved NOT Always Saved

Thanks

They can't both be true, but thousands on either side are led by the 'Spirit' to believe they believe the truth. By your method, whatever I believe to be true, I believe through Christ to be true, therefore it must be true.

So thouands led by the Spirit eat meat or refrain and eat vegetables (as they are convicted) in the conscience, which is right and which is wrong? Millions believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary and the pope and a billion others things and you do not (as I do not) how do you judge that?

I'd ask where those words came from, are either of them His words or others?

Explain why the other person, who believes COMPLETELY opposite to me, who is also 'born again' and is led by the 'Spirit of Christ' to his belief, can also be correct.

That question makes no sense, where are those words His words? Was Peter not led by the Spirit when he walked not uprightly and Paul had a difference with him?

Whats your definition of being led by the Spirit? Im sorta groping in the dark oblio because I have no understanding of any of your basis for thinking.

Are you trying to point out my error on men being infallible here? Because I never said they were.

Either God is lying to one of them, or one of them is not being led by God.

God doesnt lie. Maybe God has not revealed the truth to them concerning it yet. Maybe they should wait on Him concerning it? Would Peter (in your estimation) be not led of God in His mistake?

Me and you think differently, I (personally) allow for difference and ignorance on things without offense. We have been on threads where I have seen you throw up your hands in the air over something I would not. So we are very different that way.

But your truth paradigm does not allow for the second option. The only other option is the first, that God is lying to one of them. This leads us to the conclusion that either God is not what you (and I) say He is, or your paradigm is faulty.

Where on earth do you derive your reasonings? They certainly are not mine. I shared in a nutshell but I cannot write out the depths to which I perceive a thing. Its not so cut and dry with me Oblio.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

the faith was delivered once and for all to the saints -- there are no issues to resolve, only answers to be taught.

I would go more for the Orthodox's answers than the Roman pope.

Matthew 12:41 `Men of Nineveh shall-rise-up/anasthsontai <450>in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, for they reformed at the proclamation of Jonah, and lo, a greater than Jonah here!

1 thess 4:16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall-rise-up/anasthsontai <450> First,

 

[racer]

. . . . Or what would it take for the Pope to come back to the Faith where he is "first among equals"?

Although we share 1000 years, we have also been estranged for another 1000. We are very different. You are closer to Catholicism, as a Protestant, than is the Orthodox Church. Your separation is not as wide.

Love,
Christina

Amen, Sista! But, we are also closer to EOxy than is the RCC . . .

 

[Oblio]

IOW something like this ?:


EOC---------------------Prot----RCC

 

[racer]

IOW something like this ?:


EOC---------------------Prot----RCC

No, more like:

EOC---------------PROT---------------RCC