What Would God's Word Be Like?

[Ken Behrens]

...and?

That makes half the worlds population would probably agree that the writings of at least part of the Bible have greatly influenced their lives. You asked me about the number.

 

[Desk trauma]

That makes half the worlds population would probably agree that the writings of at least part of the Bible have greatly influenced their lives.

Which has no impact on it being words from a deity.

Additionally it's a bit of a stretch to include Muslims in the Bible believing category as they have their own scriptures.

 

[FireDragon76]

You see my point then...he knows what will happen, does he not? Certaintly he must've known the future would hold much better methods of recording and transmitting information?

Is it information we need, and not formation?

Do you know anything about Martin Luther King Jr. or Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Both men were formed by the Scriptures. Both were formed so much, they put their life on the line to bring us a more just world.

I still get moved by 3,000 year old psalms sung by the cantor at church. Don't you think its a bit hasty to say that these hopelessly out of date texts have nothing to offer us?

Yet he didn't choose today transmit his message today...he picked a time of rampant mythology, superstition, and prophecy. He picked a time when men still followed the authority of other men because they were believed to be divine.

Exactly. He gave us a Servant Lord to show us true lordship and divinity. The Gospel was revealed in the fullness of time.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Which has no impact on it being words from a deity.

Additionally it's a bit of a stretch to include Muslims in the Bible believing category as they have their own scriptures.

Do Muslims believe in the Bible? - Talk to Islam

 

[brightlights]

You see my point then...he knows what will happen, does he not? Certaintly he must've known the future would hold much better methods of recording and transmitting information?

Yet he didn't choose today transmit his message today...he picked a time of rampant mythology, superstition, and prophecy. He picked a time when men still followed the authority of other men because they were believed to be divine. He could hardly have chosen a worse time to deliver his message.

Well. It could be argued that the ethical norms conveyed in Scripture are responsible for getting the world to a civilized and unified enough place to be able to invent stuff like TVs, the internet, and iPads. So perhaps the Bible is a victim of its own success.

What's so difficult about that? God only speaks ancient Hebrew? Or Greek?

The first difficulty that I see is that not all people in history are alive at the same time.

I like poetry and fiction...I agree completely that these methods can relate ideas an expressions...often beautifully. If god's goal was to be beautiful and artistic in his expression...then perhaps you've got yourself a good point.

I do believe that what God wants to convey is much more than propositional truth and requires story and poetry.

What those mediums are not, however, is clear and direct. We aren't simply talking about little stories that give advice about your life...let's be clear about what's at stake if you "miss" god's message in christianity...shall we? We're talking about the damnation of your eternal soul. It seems like with that at stake....clarity and directness should be the top priority....far more important than pretty words and middling stories. So if you think god chose to sound beautiful and artistic over clear and direct...you can only conclude that he doesn't really care that a lot of people aren't going to correctly interpret his message...which doesn't speak well of his motivations (as I said in my last post)

I think that God is very direct in Scripture when he needs to be and I think he's very artistic and subtle in other places.

Is poetry or narrative unclear? Is propositional truth more clear than truths conveyed through story or poetry? I think these are highly debatable questions. I think that propositional truth without the help of narrative and poetic illustration is actually very confusing and too abstract to be of much use.

Let me put it this way...

Suppose a truck had overturned on a road you were driving along and a giant poisonous gas cloud lay ahead of you. You see me stopped alongside the road and you ask me why I stopped there...

Do you want me to give you the information about the giant poisonous gas cloud in...

1. Poetry and parables. Sure, you may not realize that I'm talking about a giant gas cloud in your path that will certainly kill you should you continue driving....but boy it's gonna sound pretty!

2. Direct and clear language. Something like "Hey, stupid! Turn around and go back the way you came! There's a giant poisonous gas cloud in the road ahead that's gonna kill you if you keep driving that way!"

My guess is that even though it doesn't come off as pretty...you'd probably rather I choose to communicate this extremely important message using method #2. If I were to use method #1 I could be accurately described as a jerk, sadist, or at least apathetic towards the imminent death of many people.

Well this is an interesting point and actually one that Jesus directly addressed. If you'll remember, his disciples once asked him why he taught in parables rather than stating truth directly and plainly. Jesus' response was this:

Matthew 13:13 - This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Apparently the people that Jesus was dealing with didn't understand the clear language. They just weren't hearing what God was plainly saying. I think this is probably because they did not want to hear what God was plainly saying. To go along with your analogy (use of a parable to convey a clear truth that I don't seem to be hearing), it's like the man on the road is dead-set on proceeding forth and doesn't want to hear that there's a cloud of poisonous gas. This makes the situation more complicated. So Jesus taught with stories and parables in order to sneak truths into peoples' psyches that they may have normally had their defenses set up against.

 

[brightlights]

@Ana the Ist It is somewhat ironic that you used a parable to make your point more clear, is it not?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well. It could be argued that the ethical norms conveyed in Scripture are responsible for getting the world to a civilized and unified enough place to be able to invent stuff like TVs, the internet, and iPads. So perhaps the Bible is a victim of its own success.

You could make that argument...but I could just as easily argue that the regressive nature of the teachings of the bible are responsible for the "dark ages" and stifled the forward progress of mankind for centuries...resulting in death, famine, and persecution on a previously unknown scale.

The first difficulty that I see is that not all people in history are alive at the same time.

Sure, but even if it only happened once...it would be difficult for historians to explain all of mankind hearing the exact same message at the exact same time...without the intervention of some otherworldly deity.

I do believe that what God wants to convey is much more than propositional truth and requires story and poetry.

Fair enough...give me one example of something in the bible which couldn't be explained better with clear and direct language. I'm interested in what you think needs conveying.

I think that God is very direct in Scripture when he needs to be and I think he's very artistic and subtle in other places.

Is poetry or narrative unclear? Is propositional truth more clear than truths conveyed through story or poetry? I think these are highly debatable questions. I think that propositional truth without the help of narrative and poetic illustration is actually very confusing and too abstract to be of much use.

You're entitled to your opinion...however I think the existence of such diverse denominations and wildly different interpretations of the bible between and within those denominations proves rather definitively that it isn't clear at all.

Well this is an interesting point and actually one that Jesus directly addressed. If you'll remember, his disciples once asked him why he taught in parables rather than stating truth directly and plainly. Jesus' response was this:

Matthew 13:13 - This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Frankly, it sounds like a poor excuse for why he only had a handful of followers. What religion hasn't used the old "everyone else just doesn't get it" excuse?

Apparently the people that Jesus was dealing with didn't understand the clear language. They just weren't hearing what God was plainly saying. I think this is probably because they did not want to hear what God was plainly saying. To go along with your analogy (use of a parable to convey a clear truth that I don't seem to be hearing), it's like the man on the road is dead-set on proceeding forth and doesn't want to hear that there's a cloud of poisonous gas. This makes the situation more complicated. So Jesus taught with stories and parables in order to sneak truths into peoples' psyches that they may have normally had their defenses set up against.

I'm sure that on some level you believe that...

If you want my opinion, I think parables and poetry was used to make some rather mundane and (in some cases) poor advice sound better than it actually was.

 

[FireDragon76]

You could make that argument...but I could just as easily argue that the regressive nature of the teachings of the bible are responsible for the "dark ages" and stifled the forward progress of mankind for centuries...resulting in death, famine, and persecution on a previously unknown scale.

This isn't the fault of the Bible in my mind so much as the sinful tendencies of human beings. Indeed, this confirms a theme within the Bible, that the good things of God can be misused.

Sure, but even if it only happened once...it would be difficult for historians to explain all of mankind hearing the exact same message at the exact same time...without the intervention of some otherworldly deity.

Look up the Axial Age. A similar message happening all at once... "whatever is hurtful to you, do not do to others".

 

[Ana the Ist]

@Ana the Ist It is somewhat ironic that you used a parable to make your point more clear, is it not?

Lol about how parables are crappy and indirect?

Here's another one...

Imagine far off in the future when there's flying cars, people looked at the advice I gave you and thought..."why wouldn't we just fly over the poisonous cloud? Or turn on our ionizers and eliminated the poison"

Imagine a far off future where they no longer can harvest resources and everyone walks everywhere. People might look at my advice and think, "What in the world is a poisonous gas cloud? And what's a car?"

That's the primary problem with parables...they're little pictures of the time they were written in, and may not apply to anyone's current situation. I'm afraid that stories about angels coming to people's houses and the neighbors asking to rape them aren't exactly drawing any strong parallels to my life. Stories of going off to a cave and having drugged sex with one's daughters probably had real significance way back when...but those aren't issues most people deal with anymore. Similarly, we don't stone homosexuals to death nor make women marry their rapists.

I could go on...but I'm hoping that you see the problem. Those stories really don't resonate today...and people who believe have to guess what they were really about or what was really meant by them. Maybe some interpretations are correct...maybe they aren't...there's no real way of knowing...and that makes them rather ineffective for keeping people from hell.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This isn't the fault of the Bible in my mind so much as the sinful tendencies of human beings. Indeed, this confirms a theme within the Bible, that the good things of God can be misused.

Again...I'm sure that argument can be made...but so can the one I proposed.

Look up the Axial Age. A similar message happening all at once... "whatever is hurtful to you, do not do to others".

The "Axial Age" refers to a period of about 500 years or so...which doesn't exactly conflate with what I'm saying.

 

[FireDragon76]

I could go on...but I'm hoping that you see the problem. Those stories really don't resonate today

Maybe they don't resonate with you

and that makes them rather ineffective for keeping people from hell.

Are they ineffective, or are certain individuals unwilling to consider the scandal that God chose a particular people to be the place for his ultimate revelation?

 

[brightlights]

You could make that argument...but I could just as easily argue that the regressive nature of the teachings of the bible are responsible for the "dark ages" and stifled the forward progress of mankind for centuries...resulting in death, famine, and persecution on a previously unknown scale.

What @FireDragon76 said.

Sure, but even if it only happened once...it would be difficult for historians to explain all of mankind hearing the exact same message at the exact same time...without the intervention of some otherworldly deity.

I'm sure they'd find a naturalistic explanation ;-)

Fair enough...give me one example of something in the bible which couldn't be explained better with clear and direct language. I'm interested in what you think needs conveying.

You're asking for me to describe what poetry adds to a propositional truth statement. This is difficult to discuss propositionally. Better to look at an example:

Amos 3:8 -
The lion has roared; who will not fear?
The Lord God has spoken; who can but prophesy?

This is a type of Hebrew poetic structure called parallelism. There's two lines that say the same thing twice, although in two different ways. One is a poetic image and one is more of a propositional statement. So what does the first line add? Why not just stick with the proposition?

You're entitled to your opinion...however I think the existence of such diverse denominations and wildly different interpretations of the bible between and within those denominations proves rather definitively that it isn't clear at all.

As an insider I don't really have much of a problem with diversity within Christianity. I don't think that the Bible is crystal clear on everything. It is clear on enough, however. We all agree on the Apostles' Creed and that's enough for me. Diversity is a good thing. Where the Bible is unclear there's room for disagreement.

Frankly, it sounds like a poor excuse for why he only had a handful of followers. What religion hasn't used the old "everyone else just doesn't get it" excuse?

Yeah. That whole Jesus group never really got off the ground, did it?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Hard to say, but I expect the gods could speak to each of us directly, rather than relying on intermediaries. We know humans are fallible, so the gods would know better than to whisper a secret to one person and rely on them to spread the news. They would tell everyone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What @FireDragon76 said.

Then you can consider my response to him as a response to you.

I'm sure they'd find a naturalistic explanation ;-)

It's possible...but we'll never no because god is apparently silent on those sorts of things.

You're asking for me to describe what poetry adds to a propositional truth statement. This is difficult to discuss propositionally. Better to look at an example:

Amos 3:8 -
The lion has roared; who will not fear?
The Lord God has spoken; who can but prophesy?

I don't know what those two lines are trying to say...and that's really the problem. Why in the world would god use "Hebrew poetic structure" for a message meant for all of mankind? Pretty stupid, don't you think?

This is a type of Hebrew poetic structure called parallelism. There's two lines that say the same thing twice, although in two different ways. One is a poetic image and one is more of a propositional statement. So what does the first line add? Why not just stick with the proposition?

If I read that...I would think "I don't fear when lions roar...cuz there aren't any lions around me." So the second line adds nothing to the first.

As an insider I don't really have much of a problem with diversity within Christianity. I don't think that the Bible is crystal clear on everything. It is clear on enough, however.

It's clear on enough "you think"...but in case you find yourself in hell in the afterlife, you'd probably wish it was more clear.

We all agree on the Apostles' Creed and that's enough for me. Diversity is a good thing. Where the Bible is unclear there's room for disagreement.

There isn't much that isn't disagreed on in the bible.

Yeah. That whole Jesus group never really got off the ground, did it?

Not until a Roman emperor annihilated religious freedom around 300A.D. and forced his reluctant population into christianity with violence and began an age where learning was stifled and many advances were lost...no...it was a rather small cult before then.

 

[brightlights]

I don't know what those two lines are trying to say...and that's really the problem. Why in the world would god use "Hebrew poetic structure" for a message meant for all of mankind? Pretty stupid, don't you think?

Understanding what Hebrew parallelism is isn't necessary for understanding the power of the metaphor.

If I read that...I would think "I don't fear when lions roar...cuz there aren't any lions around me." So the second line adds nothing to the first.

I suppose the Bible wasn't written for you, then.

But luckily modern folks like you have Youtube and Metropolitan zoos at their disposal. It wouldn't take much for you to figure this one out. And I suppose you're playing dumb, anyway.

Not until a Roman emperor annihilated religious freedom around 300A.D. and forced his reluctant population into christianity with violence and began an age where learning was stifled and many advances were lost...no...it was a rather small cult before then.

Didn't Rome get sacked?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Understanding what Hebrew parallelism is isn't necessary for understanding the power of the metaphor.

I don't understand the metaphor though...what is it saying?

I suppose the Bible wasn't written for you, then.

It wasn't written for anyone alive right now! That's my point! Even if you think that parables are great for conveying messages at the time they're written...they stink at conveying messages to all of humanity across all time! Seriously, the story about going up into a mountainside cave and having drunken sex with one's daughters...what am I supposed to get from that? What's the message there? And I'm talking specifically about the part where he has sex with his daughters...

But luckily modern folks like you have Youtube and Metropolitan zoos at their disposal. It wouldn't take much for you to figure this one out. And I suppose you're playing dumb, anyway.

I've been to the zoo...those lions don't really roar anymore but if they did, I don't think it's gonna scare me.

What's the message behind those two lines?

Didn't Rome get sacked?

Multiple times, for several reasons, but the only thing that really stopped the rest of Europe from enjoying things like modern agriculture, running water, waste disposal, and many many other advances that the Romans enjoyed was an almost slavish belief that all knowledge outside of the bible was bad or useless....and only the bible contained real knowledge. With that regressive belief...the whole of the continent slipped rather quickly into the dark ages.

 

[brightlights]

I don't understand the metaphor though...what is it saying?

It's saying that God's word, if heard, elicits an immediate response.

It wasn't written for anyone alive right now! That's my point! Even if you think that parables are great for conveying messages at the time they're written...they stink at conveying messages to all of humanity across all time! Seriously, the story about going up into a mountainside cave and having drunken sex with one's daughters...what am I supposed to get from that? What's the message there? And I'm talking specifically about the part where he has sex with his daughters...

Well the story of Lot and his daughters is meant to be historical, not parabolic. It explains where the troublesome Moabites and Ammonites came from - an incestual relationship.

The message is that sin can have unforeseen, devastating long-term consequences.

What's the message behind those two lines?

God's word, once heard, cannot be ignored any more than the roaring lion can be ignored.

Multiple times, for several reasons, but the only thing that really stopped the rest of Europe from enjoying things like modern agriculture, running water, waste disposal, and many many other advances that the Romans enjoyed was an almost slavish belief that all knowledge outside of the bible was bad or useless....and only the bible contained real knowledge. With that regressive belief...the whole of the continent slipped rather quickly into the dark ages.

Where would people get such an unbiblical belief that all knowledge outside of the Bible is useless?

 

[FireDragon76]

I'd also point out that a Christian civilization, the Byzantines, enjoyed a lot of those amenities that Ana is saying that supposedly the Bible hindered. There was nothing unsophisticated about their culture.

Maybe the Bible helped hold together a crumbling civilization in the west? Considering that the Francs were little more than illiterate barbarians when they were Christianized, it's not hard to conclude this. If there were no Christianity, then the Franks and Goths would have overrun Rome and butchered each other and left a tattered landscape devoid of any of that glorious learning people appreciate so much. Christianity created a class of celibate, bored men with nothing better to do than to write stuff down, preserve it, just because they believed it had value.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well the story of Lot and his daughters is meant to be historical, not parabolic. It explains where the troublesome Moabites and Ammonites came from - an incestual relationship.

I can imagine that lurid details just made the stories that much more interesting. Sort of like how folks in the recent past sat around and watched Breaking Bad. I mean, isn't that a sign of authenticity that the Bible is R-rated? Do we live in a Sesame Street world?

My pastor occasionally gets some of the old "Minnesota Nice" types to cringe when he will talk about crazy stuff he did as a kid (he's from New Jersey), to use it as metaphors to explain some concept. In the name of "nice", we cut ourselves off from learning deeper lessons about life.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'd also point out that a Christian civilization, the Byzantines, enjoyed a lot of those amenities that Ana is saying that supposedly the Bible hindered. There was nothing unsophisticated about their culture.

That's a bit dishonest isn't it? The Byzantine empire was the remnants of the Roman empire...what was essentially left after it's fall, and while it did pretty well for itself for a few centuries...it never reached the levels of civilization the Romans did. After a brief expansion, it's mainly torn apart by...Muslim nations.

Maybe the Bible helped hold together a crumbling civilization in the west? Considering that the Francs were little more than illiterate barbarians when they were Christianized, it's not hard to conclude this.

Barbarian is a rather disingenuous term. Did they have their own cultures before they were christianized? You betcha. Did christianity teach them to read? Not unless they joined a monastery...the bible remained in Latin for centuries and most people couldn't speak Latin, let alone read it. This became a method for the church to establish and maintain power...they got to tell everyone what to believe and what to do.

If there were no Christianity, then the Franks and Goths would have overrun Rome and butchered each other and left a tattered landscape devoid of any of that glorious learning people appreciate so much.

I don't know about a tattered landscape...but they rest of it did get destroyed by several peoples.

Christianity created a class of celibate, bored men with nothing better to do than to write stuff down, preserve it, just because they believed it had value.

They claimed to be celibate. Unfortunately, instead of preserving all of the greatGreek and Roman texts and writings....they destroyed them. No point in keeping around anything which was pagan and might contradict the bible. Arabic nations, however, conquered the Byzantines...established the Ottoman empire...and discovered all those great Roman and Greek scholars. They improved mathematics, astronomy, and other sciences and became the shining hub of civilization for centuries while Europe became increasingly backwards and theocratic.