What Would God's Word Be Like?

[brightlights]

Not sure where to put this...

1. I've requested access to the outreach section but there has been no response.
2. The philosophy section has been shut down.
3. I want to talk with both Christians and non-Christians.

So if mods would move this to outreach and grant me access that would be awesome!

That being said...

If you're a non-believer then you reject the notion that the Bible is God's word. You might even think that it's a very strange book. It presents itself as sort of a meandering history of a bronze-age, middle-eastern tribe who gets delivered from slavery and conquers the land of Canaan, highlighting a few major characters along the way.

Along with this there's a lot of aphorisms, wisdom literature, and poetry. And there's also a great deal of 15th century BC civil law to sift through.

In the NT there's several stories about a Galilean carpenter who taught, healed, died, and rose again. Then this guy Paul writes a bunch of letters to small communities around the ancient world who believe that said carpenter is still alive and is God's son.

In both the OT and NT there's psychedelic, apocalyptic literature about the end of the world.

And that about sums up the Bible.

For a lot of people, this doesn't strike them as the word of God. So my question for these people is - If God were real, and if he were a person, and if he wanted to communicate with us through words: what would his words be like?

Would he give us stories, parables, laws, poetry? What would you expect communication from God to be like if there was such a thing?

 

[Ken Behrens]

There is something special about these particular meandering stories, parables, laws, etc. (chosen from many millions of other such literary works, if archeology is to be believed). Half the world's people think that they have been dramatically personally changed by reading them, and placed in touch with an incredible unimaginable reality, that given time, will change the world.

I would not try to outguess God. It seems like what we have now is working.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Brightlights, all the objections you mention are variations of the "I don't like it!" argument. The ONLY underlying basis for the objections is "God should have done it like I want it".

I find that a difficult position to discuss.

 

[Desk trauma]

Half the world's people think that they have been dramatically personally changed by reading...

A third at the most actually.

 

[FireDragon76]

Probably they want the cure for cancer or something like that. Western secularists are very concrete minded people. I can sort of understand that, as I have Asperger's and I know alot of types like that, who are completely irreligious. Abstract stuff just has no comprehensibility to many of them. Other, more normal people people understand it, they just reject it as unimportant or absurd. Like talking about how many angels are on the head of a pin. A difference that in their mind makes no difference.

 

[FireDragon76]

On its face the Bible is a pretty wierd narrative, honestly. That's one reason I believe in creedalism or confessionalism. I really do think tradition has a place in our hermeneutical approach to the Scriptures: I don't think of the Bible as a religion construction set. I know in my own case I was drawn to Christianity, not the Bible. That may be because I'm looking for concrete ways to embody truth, rather than abstract ideas about truth (perhaps a reflection of my own personality).

 

[Desk trauma]

If God were real, and if he were a person, and if he wanted to communicate with us through words: what would his words be like?

Unquestionably clear, not open to misinterpretation and delivered in a way that leaves no question as to the omnipotent nature of their giver. Think hitchhikers guide opening broadcast.

A point I often make is that the words of the Bible don't come from an god as they don't offer insight into physical reality. A benevolent deity could have ended centuries of suffering and starvation by communicating the nature of infectious diseases, how to capture atmosphere nitrogen for fertilizer, how to create effective pain killers.

 

[brightlights]

Unquestionably clear, not open to misinterpretation and delivered in a way that leaves no question as to the omnipotent nature of their giver.

Is this logically possible? Could you give an example of any document that matches this description?

A point I often make is that the words of the Bible don't come from an god as they don't offer insight into physical reality. A benevolent deity could have ended centuries of suffering and starvation by communicating the nature of infectious diseases, how to capture atmosphere nitrogen for fertilizer, how to create effective pain killers.

So God's word would be like a scientific text book? How could anyone have understood it?

 

[brightlights]

Probably they want the cure for cancer or something like that. Western secularists are very concrete minded people. I can sort of understand that, as I have Asperger's and I know alot of types like that, who are completely irreligious. Abstract stuff just has no comprehensibility to many of them.

What is abstract about Scripture? The stories, laws, imagery, parables, etc seem pretty concrete to me. It's certainly not a philosophical or technical text in any sense.

Other, more normal people people understand it, they just reject it as unimportant or absurd. Like talking about how many angels are on the head of a pin. A difference that in their mind makes no difference.

Where does the Bible deal with the issue of how many angels can fit on a pin head?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not sure where to put this...

1. I've requested access to the outreach section but there has been no response.
2. The philosophy section has been shut down.
3. I want to talk with both Christians and non-Christians.

So if mods would move this to outreach and grant me access that would be awesome!

That being said...

If you're a non-believer then you reject the notion that the Bible is God's word. You might even think that it's a very strange book. It presents itself as sort of a meandering history of a bronze-age, middle-eastern tribe who gets delivered from slavery and conquers the land of Canaan, highlighting a few major characters along the way.

Along with this there's a lot of aphorisms, wisdom literature, and poetry. And there's also a great deal of 15th century BC civil law to sift through.

In the NT there's several stories about a Galilean carpenter who taught, healed, died, and rose again. Then this guy Paul writes a bunch of letters to small communities around the ancient world who believe that said carpenter is still alive and is God's son.

In both the OT and NT there's psychedelic, apocalyptic literature about the end of the world.

And that about sums up the Bible.

For a lot of people, this doesn't strike them as the word of God. So my question for these people is - If God were real, and if he were a person, and if he wanted to communicate with us through words: what would his words be like?

Would he give us stories, parables, laws, poetry? What would you expect communication from God to be like if there was such a thing?

I would imagine that if god had a message for man...he probably wouldn't have it put into a book, especially at a time when it could be so easily edited/reworded by man. I mean he's god right? Why not just tell us all in person? At the same time?

I especially don't think he would use parables, stories, poetry, etc...why leave your message unclear and subject to multiple interpretations? Either the message isn't important enough to deserve clarity...or he intended to be unclear, which doesn't speak well of his motivations.

 

[Desk trauma]

Is this logically possible?

If we're dealing with an omnipotent deity.

Could you give an example of any document that matches this description?

I don't think one exists just as I don't think a god exists.

So God's word would be like a scientific text book?

If it was communicating things that humans needed to know in order to live well it would need to include a many scientific things.

How could anyone have understood it?

An omnipotent being could make itself understood.

 

[FireDragon76]

What is abstract about Scripture? The stories, laws, imagery, parables, etc seem pretty concrete to me. It's certainly not a philosophical or technical text in any sense.

True, but the typical way that western people approach the Bible is to try to produce abstract, "timeless truths" from its passages.

 

[brightlights]

True, but the typical way that western people approach the Bible is to try to produce abstract, "timeless truths" from its passages.

You seem to have just said that you're in favor of this, though. Isn't this the essence of confessionalism?

 

[FireDragon76]

You seem to have just said that you're in favor of this, though. Isn't this the essence of confessionalism?

I'm an evangelical catholic (more like, catholic first, evangelical second in terms of the priority), so I regard Christianity as something that predated the turn towards biblicism in the Reformed confessions and wider evangelical world (indeed, Christianity predates the Bible as we know it). Being confessional means being part of a people who confess a common faith. It doesn't mean a strict scholasticism.

 

[brightlights]

I would imagine that if god had a message for man...he probably wouldn't have it put into a book, especially at a time when it could be so easily edited/reworded by man.

Well Scripture was not originally recorded in a codex. Most of it was originally written on something like a papyrus scroll. They didn't have iPads back then. How else could written words be transmitted?

I mean he's god right? Why not just tell us all in person? At the same time?

All historical persons from all around the world speaking all kinds of different languages at the same time? Not sure what you're envisioning here.

I especially don't think he would use parables, stories, poetry, etc...why leave your message unclear and subject to multiple interpretations? Either the message isn't important enough to deserve clarity...or he intended to be unclear, which doesn't speak well of his motivations.

Not a fan of poetry or narrative, eh? Some people believe that poetry, stories, and aphorisms are beautiful. Some even believe that poetry is the very height of verbal expression. Some think that stories can convey much more than propositional truth statements.

Why should God pander to your rather modern, western preferences?

 

[brightlights]

I'm an evangelical catholic (more like, catholic first, evangelical second in terms of the priority), so I regard Christianity as something that predated the turn towards biblicism in the Reformed confessions and wider evangelical world (indeed, Christianity predates the Bible as we know it). Being confessional means being part of a people who confess a common faith. It doesn't mean a strict scholasticism.

Confessional means that you hold to a man-made confession.

The church may predate Scripture, but it does not predate God's word.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not a fan of poetry or narrative, eh? Some people believe that poetry, stories, and aphorisms are beautiful. Some even believe that poetry is the very height of verbal expression. Some think that stories can convey much more than propositional truth statements. ...

... Why should God pander to your rather modern, western preferences?

Bingo.

Nobody looks for ultimate concerns in an owner's manual. Not unless they are mentally deficient. And if they think there are no ultimate concerns, welcome to the subhuman way of life Lewis called living as "men without chests". I can't think of any civilization that endured for long without some sense of ultimate concerns. Even social progressives are looking for that elusive "justice". Why? If we are just matter in motion, there is no point in looking for that at all.

 

[Ken Behrens]

A third at the most actually.

I am counting Moslems.

Look at it this way. 2000 years ago, maybe 20 million Jews believed there is just one God, who created us all, and is in some sense our father. Today, there are billions of Christians, Jews and Moslems, who believe this. I googled a little and got 2013 stats of 2.05 billion Christianss, Jews, Moslems out of 7.4 billion total.

 

[Desk trauma]

I am counting Moslems.

Look at it this way. 2000 years ago, maybe 20 million Jews believed there is just one God, who created us all, and is in some sense our father. Today, there are billions of Christians, Jews and Moslems, who believe this. I googled a little and got 2013 stats of 2.05 billion Christianss, Jews, Moslems out of 7.4 billion total.

...and?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well Scripture was not originally recorded in a codex. Most of it was originally written on something like a papyrus scroll. They didn't have iPads back then. How else could written words be transmitted?

You see my point then...he knows what will happen, does he not? Certaintly he must've known the future would hold much better methods of recording and transmitting information?

Yet he didn't choose today transmit his message today...he picked a time of rampant mythology, superstition, and prophecy. He picked a time when men still followed the authority of other men because they were believed to be divine. He could hardly have chosen a worse time to deliver his message.

All historical persons from all around the world speaking all kinds of different languages at the same time? Not sure what you're envisioning here.

What's so difficult about that? God only speaks ancient Hebrew? Or Greek?

Not a fan of poetry or narrative, eh? Some people believe that poetry, stories, and aphorisms are beautiful. Some even believe that poetry is the very height of verbal expression. Some think that stories can convey much more than propositional truth statements.

I like poetry and fiction...I agree completely that these methods can relate ideas an expressions...often beautifully. If god's goal was to be beautiful and artistic in his expression...then perhaps you've got yourself a good point.

What those mediums are not, however, is clear and direct. We aren't simply talking about little stories that give advice about your life...let's be clear about what's at stake if you "miss" god's message in christianity...shall we? We're talking about the damnation of your eternal soul. It seems like with that at stake....clarity and directness should be the top priority....far more important than pretty words and middling stories. So if you think god chose to sound beautiful and artistic over clear and direct...you can only conclude that he doesn't really care that a lot of people aren't going to correctly interpret his message...which doesn't speak well of his motivations (as I said in my last post)

Let me put it this way...

Suppose a truck had overturned on a road you were driving along and a giant poisonous gas cloud lay ahead of you. You see me stopped alongside the road and you ask me why I stopped there...

Do you want me to give you the information about the giant poisonous gas cloud in...

1. Poetry and parables. Sure, you may not realize that I'm talking about a giant gas cloud in your path that will certainly kill you should you continue driving....but boy it's gonna sound pretty!

2. Direct and clear language. Something like "Hey, stupid! Turn around and go back the way you came! There's a giant poisonous gas cloud in the road ahead that's gonna kill you if you keep driving that way!"

My guess is that even though it doesn't come off as pretty...you'd probably rather I choose to communicate this extremely important message using method #2. If I were to use method #1 I could be accurately described as a jerk, sadist, or at least apathetic towards the imminent death of many people.

Why should God pander to your rather modern, western preferences?

See above.