As I see it it's really a matter of taking Scripture at its word with what it says.
-CryptoLutheran
As I see it it's really a matter of taking Scripture at its word with what it says. Regeneration is our new birth, Jesus says that we receive that new birth by being born "of water and the Spirit", there has never been any confusion about what Jesus meant by being born of water and the Spirit among the historic teaching of the Church--it's Baptism.
Setst RE: You may not be aware of this, but there has historically been confusion over what was meant by “water” in John 3:5. Some say the water represents the first birth from the womb, which would directly answer Nicodemus’ question as follows:
John 3:4 (WEB) 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?””
Lord Jesus’ response answers his question – being born the first time from the water of the womb, and the second time by the Spirit.
Others say “water” represent the Word, for we are born again by the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23) and also the Spirit Jn 3:6. Therefore, the Word and Spirit work together to bring life to those who believe.
1 Peter 1:23 (NIV) 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
James 1:18 (WEB) 18 Of his own will he gave birth to us by the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.
Others, like you, believe water here means baptism by water, which most view as unlikely, and such is not stated in Jn 3:5, nor is such taught anywhere in Scripture.
But of course
John 3:5 isn't the only place, rather consistently Scripture speaks of Baptism as the means by which we were united to Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection; since we have died with Christ, been buried with Christ, we are now alive with Christ. We have put on Christ, etc.
Setst RE: We must repent and believe in Jesus to be united with him. Once you believe, you are baptized (Mat 9:13; Lk 5:32; Lk 13:3; Lk 15:10; Lk 24:45-48; Acts 2:38; Acts 17:31; Acts 20:20-21; Acts 26:20; 2 Cor 7:10; 2 Pet 3:9). Dunking someone in water and saying words over them saves no one.
See again John 3:14-18.
All of Scripture commands and teaches us that we must repent (a complete change of mind, purpose, and life after learning the Gospel and salvation God offers), and then we are commanded to deny our selves, take up our cross and follow Jesus to be saved. OR, as the Apostles teach, we are commanded to put off the old man and its desires, and then to put on the new man (
Romans 6;
Ephesians 4:19-24;
Colossians 2:7-10;
Romans 12:1-2;
2 Corinthians 5:15). When we commit to do this, the Spirit indwells us to lead our faith to victory.
As we continue in that faith in this way, we are walking by the Spirit of Christ in us – this is the only kind of faith that saves (Romans 8:12-14; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25).
Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
The Spirit will only indwells and give life to those who repent and have an obedient faith unto Jesus as Lord (Jn 7:37-39; Acts 5:32; Jn 14:15-17; Jn 14:23; Acts 2:38).
Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit,
whom God has given to those who obey him.
John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15
If you love me, keep my commandments. 16
I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17
the Spirit of truth
John 14:21 (WEB) 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him,
and will reveal myself to him.”
John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him,
and make our home with him.
Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and
you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
If we simply take the plain and straight forward meaning of Scripture when it speaks about Baptism, there shouldn't be any confusion here. The texts simply mean what they say. When it says we died and were buried with Christ in Baptism, it means just what it says.
Setst RE: You must repent and believe in Jesus, then you are baptized. Baptism is the sacrament showing the reality of your faith before God – that you died to your old life in the flesh, and have committed your life to Jesus. That is the repeated theme throughout the OT and NT Scriptures by which we receive the Spirit of God and salvation.
Romans 1:16 (WEB)
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the
power of God for salvation for
everyone who believes…
The only acceptable faith is to be a disciple or follower of Jesus – then you are baptized…
Matthew 28:18-19 (WEB) 18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 19
Go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20
teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.
setst777 said: ↑
There is only one Sacrament of Baptism
whereby we make our public confession of repentance and faith - a commitment to renounce the old carnal way of life, and then to follow Lord Jesus. Yet, Paul was well aware, and addressed, the fact that not all those in the Church were true believers, and many would fall away.
But where does the Bible say this? Where does the Bible say that Baptism is "whereby we make our public confession of repentance and faith"?
Setst RE:
Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 [You were] buried with him in baptism, in which
you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
1 Peter 3:21 (WEB)
21 This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but
the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Matthew 2:19-20 (WEB) 19
Go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20
teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.
No where does Scripture speak of Baptism this way.
Setst RE: ??
Scripture does not speak of Baptism as something we do, either for ourselves, for the Church, or for God; but consistently Scripture speaks of Baptism as what God does.
Setst RE: Lord Jesus commanded the Church to baptize disciples, and that is what the Apostles did by the command of Jesus – they baptized the believers in Jesus in water. We see this especially recorded in the Book of Acts.
Matthew 2:19-20 (WEB) 19
Go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20
teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.
It is God who claims us as His own in Baptism, we didn't do anything in Baptism, God did something in Baptism. Baptism isn't our work, it's God's work.
Setst RE: No Scripture states or teaches that God claims us as His own through water baptism. God claims us as his own through faith in Jesus in all the NT Scriptures – a true Gospel Faith after one repents, just as the Scriptures teach it
See
John 3:14-18
setst777 said: ↑
Spiritual Baptism is a work of the Spirit
as the Spirit wills (John 3:8) - to whomever the Spirit discerns has truly repented and received Lord Jesus as Lord (John 3:14-18; John 7:37-39).
And how and where does this "spiritual baptism" take place? Where can I find it in Scripture?
Setst RE:
- By drinking/believing
- After the glorification of Jesus.
- The Old Testament believers were not given the Spirit by faith – only for the New Covenant.
John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38
He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But
he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.
setst777 said: ↑
We cannot tell who a true believer is
- only the Spirit can. But we can baptize the "professing believer" in water as a member of the Church body - the physical Church we can see. The wheat and tares grow together, but the Spirit indwells the true believers.
So we can have no assurance from God of our salvation? We can't trust in what God has said and done for us?
Setst RE: You can be assured of your salvation by obeying what God commands you to do, which is, to repent, and believe in the Lord Jesus – following Him. The Sprit indwells those who believe in Jesus in this way.
Matthew 2:19-20 (WEB) 19
Go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20
teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.
This is not a works salvation. God wants YOU – your entire life to be His (a Disciple of Jesus). When God has YOU, then all that you do will be because you now follow Jesus as Lord of your life. You repented, and have renounced the old life, and are now living to listen to and follow Jesus by faith.
We are commanded to be holy onto God to be granted the free gift of eternal life – only by faith.
Romans 6:19-23 (WEB) 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 12:1-2 (WEB) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.
2 Timothy 2:19 (WEB) 19 However
God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “
The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “
Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”
John 10:27-28 (WEB) 27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28
I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
1Peter 1:13-19 (WEB)
13 Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ — 14 as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, 15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” [Leviticus 11:44-45]
17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man’s work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear, 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ.
setst777 said: ↑
Physical Church and Spiritual Church
The Church we see with our eyes, the people in it, we cannot tell who the true Spirit filled believers are, only the Spirit knows. They are all baptized in water, but not everyone is a true believer or remains so.
John 3:8 (WEB) 8 "The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
The Spirit's work in baptizing or submersing a true believer into the Body of Christ (Spiritual Church) is a work from above - from God.
I'm starting to see a dangerous pattern. You are making a division between the visible and invisible, the spiritual and the material. . .
Setst RE: Nothing dangerous about the Word of God, except to those who are perishing.
Israel is the Elect of God, the apple of His eye, yet not everyone in Israel will be saved – only a remnant.
The Church is the Elect of God, not everyone who claims faith in Jesus is saved – only some.
While the names of those who are saved are written in the Book of Life, they can be blotted out (
Revelation 3:1-5) or cut off for unfaithfulness or re-added (
Romans 11:22-24) if they repent.
Romans 11:20-21 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
You received the white robes of Jesus Christ in the waters of Baptism.
Setst RE: ?? Not in God’s Word.
Revelation 3:2-5 (WEB)
Jesus is speaking to the Church – one of the seven golden lampstands.
2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard.
Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.
4
Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white,
for they are worthy.
5
He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and
I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Blessings,
Steven