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Featured What was Jesus saying when He said "you must be born again"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by rhern, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Funny how you want to judge and eternally condemn others for much lesser sins than your own, etc...

    And what kind of spirit is that, or where does that come from, etc...?

    Guess I should expect as much from you and your kind or kinds though, it's what your kinds have been doing for a very, very long time, etc...

    Not in the true Spirit of the true Gospel, I guarantee you...

    God Bless!
     
  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    @Phil W

    How seriously do you think God takes handling His Word completely wrongly...?

    Just saying/asking...

    And doing it wrongly just in order to judge and condemn others that He loves, and has a very big heart full of compassion for, etc, and doing it wrongly in order to make you feel better about your own self by doing so, or by doing that, etc...?

    How seriously do you think takes that or those kinds of things, etc...?

    Not the first time I have caught you personally doing this either, and probably won't be the last either, you certainly have not seemed to repent from the last few times I have pointed this out, or your doing that/this, etc...

    How seriously do you think God takes it...?

    God Bless!
     
  3. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    The True Gospel is one of Reconciliation, not Judgement and Condemnation, etc, a thing in which you only judge and condemn yourself, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  4. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    Where did a Pharisee ever say he didn't commit sin?
    Any level of sin is still separation from God.

    Only the unregenerated still serve sin.
    As we can now be reborn of the same seed Jesus was born from we too can live and walk as Jesus walked.

    Where are all the "do it by myself" folks when I need them...Ha.
    As "we" try to cut back (?) on sins, why not quit sinning altogether?
    That is called repentance form sin.

    You are hanging around with the wrong crowd.

    And you are saying we CAN serve God and sin?
    I disagree.
    Jesus' "lesson" was really clear.

    All sin is idolatry, so no sin is exempt from Jesus' lesson that nobody can serve God and...self too.

    Do you think I sinned more than Jesus when he called the Pharisees and lawyers children of the devil, liars, etc?

    Defenders of sin are so easily offended.
    Jesus said the truth could free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.
    Is that the truth you refer to?
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  5. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    So, counter to my opinion, you believe the sinners are good people.
    I wonder why God made it possible to turn from sin and get washed of all past sins by the blood of His Son, if sin doesn't really matter?
     
  6. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    It is nice to think you consider me, an alleged sinner, "good".
    It doesn't make any sense though.
     
  7. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Do sinners do good sometimes...?

    Yes or No...?
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    They always claimed they didn't or ever did, just like you and your kind/crowd, etc...

    Yes it is, some more so than others, but you claim not to be at all, etc, and others are, who are "less" than you, etc, less deserving, less worthy, etc, etc, etc...

    You just sinned, care to explain that maybe...?

    Potentially, yes, some more so than others, but the ones that are more so, do not ever think others are less, or less than them, etc...

    How about you first, etc...

    Jesus hung around and had very great love for "sinners", etc, He had to, since all are sinners, etc...

    Are you saying you don't ever sin, etc...?

    Cause I just showed you that you just did a minute ago, and is not the first time I have caught you doing so either, etc...

    Disagree all you like, doesn't change the fact that all are sinners, etc...

    Some more so than others, etc...

    Yes it was, one your are failing to get or even acknowledge, etc...

    All sin is sin, so what is your point...? Cause that is really kind of my point, etc...?

    And the scripture you used was used very, very wrongly, etc, and was sin, and in my opinion a great sin, and a true reflection of your heart, etc, or the Spirit it was done in, etc...

    It was about serving both God and mammon, but you are correct that no one can serve God perfectly, and be doing things like you are right now doing, that are all about "self" too...

    Do I think you sinned more than Jesus, yes I do, since Jesus was sinless, etc...

    Are you saying Jesus sinned, etc...?

    Cause that's what it sounds like, etc...

    And how great a sin is that maybe, etc...?

    Your comparing your sin, or sins, to His, and are saying how you didn't sin any more then He did after all, so...?

    So just what exactly are you saying or meaning by even having the gall to say such a thing, or do such a thing, etc...?

    I guarantee you you definitely sinned, and do still sin, and have sinned, way, way much more than Jesus, etc, or than Jesus ever did, etc...

    I call a spade and spade, and sinners sinners, and it is the Pharisitical types that get offended by the Truth, and when they are confronted with their own sin, etc, which is all I am doing here, and am not the one getting "offended", etc, and even if was "offended" it would only be by the particular kind of sin it is that you are doing and are guilty of right now, yet are refusing to acknowledge, etc...

    If I believe correctly, that was the exact same passage I tried to point out your sin in misquoting and taking out it's context before, etc...

    And it was directed to the Pharisees about their sin specifically, to those who thought they didn't have any, etc, and Jesus did not mean it would be immediate either, cause He said "If you remain in my Word (to the ones who believed and believed in Him, that it would, in time and eventually, "set them free", etc, eventually, if they continued to remain in His Word, AND THE TRUTH AND THE TRUE GOSPEL, etc, which is a message/ministry or reconciliation, and not condemnation, etc, of which your are only the latter, etc...

    But you do not even have the Truth or the True Gospel yet, just like them, etc...

    The Truth, or True Gospel is a message/ministry or reconciliation, not judgement and condemnation, and certainly not for the self-serving or selfish reasons you are doing, etc...

    That is a very, very wrong spirit, etc...

    And is opposite of Truth, etc....

    OH, and P.S: I would refrain from referring to Jesus Christ as a sinner if I were you, etc...

    How seriously do you think God takes that, etc...?

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  9. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I'm not saying "sin doesn't matter", etc, not at all, and/or because your the only one saying that just only your own sin doesn't matter, etc, but everyone else does, etc, just not your own, etc, which you don't have, etc...

    Which is not true at all, which I am right now pointing out, etc...

    So like your kind to think I am saying that though, that sin doesn't matter, etc, what, you personally know my mind and what I think and my thoughts always, etc...?

    Cause I 100% guarantee you you don't, etc...

    I think that many who you would personally in your own mind and judgement would call and label and judge and try to condemn as "sinners", etc, are much more good, and do much more good a lot of the time, etc, than you or your kind ever do, ever, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    @Phil W

    You are on the side of those who Jesus was very, very much against, and are going after those who He both loved and had and showed great mercy upon and sought to protect...

    I think you need to seriously rethink your position, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  11. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    @Phil W

    To ask or say to anyone, if they think you sinned more than Jesus did, for any reason at all whatsoever, or about anything whatsoever, etc, especially for a very, very selfish and extremely vain one (reason), etc, is a "sin" on a level that I just do not have the words for, etc, and is very, very offensive to me, etc...

    And I think is to God as well, etc...

    Cause the only 100% completely honest and only correct answer to that, is most certainly a very, very loud and ultimately resounding and 100% most certainly big-time, "Yes", etc...

    And beyond that, that you both are, was, and still do, or are still now, etc, most definitely a greater sinner than Jesus ever are or is or was, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  12. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    The only people that get the real Truth from the Bible when they are reading it, etc, are only those who know they are sinners when they are reading it, etc, all others are fake and false and are just exactly like the arrogant puffed-up Pharisees of old, etc...

    God Bless!
     
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    @Phil W

    What you just did, in asking if you were a worse sinner than Jesus, is the very height of arrogance and egotism that is all to commonly found in your kind, and in your crowd, etc...

    And is, yes, very, very, very "offensive" to me, etc, but I think is to God also as well, etc...

    And we are way, way more offended by your "ego" than we are your sin, etc...

    But both are sins, etc...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  14. TexFire316

    TexFire316 Come as a child, with no agenda

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    When I was born a long time ago, I was born an heir to Adam, and inherited his sin and his death penalty, then I sinned, and that monkey got off of Adam's back and on to my own. When I was 19, I cried out to the Most High for mercy, His Son heard my cry and washed my sin away. At that moment I became a new man, born of the Spirit of God. If you are born once, you will die twice. If you are born twice, then you will only die once. The Father made a covenant with me that day, a blood covenant. Not because of anything I could do, but because of who He is.
     
  15. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi CryptoLutheran,

    Thank you for your reply.

    Your review of the quotes you gave is accurate.

    That is the impression I get as well. In the sacrament of Baptism the authority and presence and work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are certainly represented - I agree.

    Paul makes a distinction of Persons in the Trinity

    I also am well aware that Apostle Paul clearly makes a distinction in His writings between the person, function, and work of the Father in relation to the Son, in relation to the Holy Spirit. If that were not so, then Paul would not be carefully naming and describing the work and function of each person of the Trinity in His writings in such a meticulous way.

    No one must be allowed to gloss over these distinctions and teachings of Paul in regards the Persons of the Trinity in his writings, as if such distinctions did not exist. Paul was definitely not a unitarian.

    1 Corinthians 12 - A teaching of the Person of the Holy Spirit.

    Paul is definitely making that distinction of persons in the Trinity in 1 Corinthians 12, where Paul is addressing the function and work of the Holy Spirit on earth today in the Body of Christ - the Church. Paul teaches the work of the Spirt on earth today ever since Lord Jesus was resurrected and glorified.

    Paul sets the stage for his discussion of the Spirit's work and function in the first sentence of 1 Corinthians 12 as follows:

    1 Corinthians 12:1 (WEB)
    1 Now concerning spiritual things, brothers, I don’t want you to be ignorant.

    Baptismal Regeneration

    I will say this: I do not see anywhere in all of New Testament where Baptismal Regeneration is taught. And that is the issue that is causing this disagreement we are having over 1 Corinthians 12:13.

    There is only one Sacrament of Baptism whereby we make our public confession of repentance and faith - a commitment to renounce the old carnal way of life, and then to follow Lord Jesus. Yet, Paul was well aware, and addressed, the fact that not all those in the Church were true believers, and many would fall away.

    Spiritual Baptism is a work of the Spirit as the Spirit wills (John 3:8) - to whomever the Spirit discerns has truly repented and received Lord Jesus as Lord (John 3:14-18; John 7:37-39).

    We cannot tell who a true believer is - only the Spirit can. But we can baptize the "professing believer" in water as a member of the Church body - the physical Church we can see. The wheat and tares grow together, but the Spirit indwells the true believers.

    Physical Church and Spiritual Church

    The Church we see with our eyes, the people in it, we cannot tell who the true Spirit filled believers are, only the Spirit knows. They are all baptized in water, but not everyone is a true believer or remains so.

    John 3:8 (WEB) 8 "The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

    The Spirit's work in baptizing or submersing a true believer into the Body of Christ (Spiritual Church) is a work from above - from God.

    So, we cannot call the Spirit down to regenerate anyone by baptizing them in water. The Spirit will work according to His Will, and will indwell those who truly believe, making them part of the Spiritual Church - the Body of Christ.

    John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

    Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life only by Faith

    John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

    So the Spirit's function in salvation is to save (Spiritual regeneration) those who truly believe in Jesus.

    John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

    John 4:13-14 (WEB) 13 Jesus answered her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”
    • The Spirit working with the Word is what brings about salvation, life, renewal, or the new birth, in those who believe after hearing (Jn 7:37-39; Jn 3:14-18; Rom 1:16-17; Rom 10:14-21).
    • Many will resist the Spirit and the Word, and so will not be saved (Rom 10:14-21; Heb 4:12; Acts 7:51; Is 63:10; Ps 106:32-33).
    • Therefore, the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, or being born again, cannot occur without the preaching of the Gospel in the New Covenant, and only if those who hear will not resist, but instead, believe the message.
    • The humble will believe because they thirst for what God offers them (Is 61:1-3; Lk 4:18-19; Mat 11:4-5; Mat 11:28-29; 1 Cor 1:28-29; Ps 18:27; Prov 3:34; Ps 25:9, Jer 18:2-11; 2 Tim 2:19-21; Rom 8:28),
    • For the will of God is to save the humble by sending Lord Jesus to preach the Gospel to the humble (Lk 4:18-19; Is 61:1-2; Mat 11:28-29).
    To be born again of the Spirit, or born from above, is to become a child of God.

    So when are we born again, or when do we become children of God – before or after we believe?

    Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

    Does that mean we are born of the Spirit as children of God by faith? Yes.

    Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

    John 7:39 (WEB) 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

    Blessings,
    Steven
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  16. James Honigman

    James Honigman Member Supporter

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    Hi 57. In the Greek, "born" means "begotten and "again" means "from above". The Greek word is "anothen" = from above, by Divine power. Everyone living today has been born from above.
     
  17. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    As I see it it's really a matter of taking Scripture at its word with what it says. Regeneration is our new birth, Jesus says that we receive that new birth by being born "of water and the Spirit", there has never been any confusion about what Jesus meant by being born of water and the Spirit among the historic teaching of the Church--it's Baptism.

    "Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" - St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch. 61

    "'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Unless a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" - St. Irenaeus, Fragment 34

    Again, a whole number of cross references can be found here.

    But of course John 3:5 isn't the only place, rather consistently Scripture speaks of Baptism as the means by which we were united to Christ, His death, burial, and resurrection; since we have died with Christ, been buried with Christ, we are now alive with Christ. We have put on Christ, etc.

    If we simply take the plain and straight forward meaning of Scripture when it speaks about Baptism, there shouldn't be any confusion here. The texts simply mean what they say. When it says we died and were buried with Christ in Baptism, it means just what it says.

    But where does the Bible say this? Where does the Bible say that Baptism is "whereby we make our public confession of repentance and faith"? No where does Scripture speak of Baptism this way. Scripture does not speak of Baptism as something we do, either for ourselves, for the Church, or for God; but consistently Scripture speaks of Baptism as what God does. It is God who claims us as His own in Baptism, we didn't do anything in Baptism, God did something in Baptism. Baptism isn't our work, it's God's work.

    And how and where does this "spiritual baptism" take place? Where can I find it in Scripture?

    So we can have no assurance from God of our salvation? We can't trust in what God has said and done for us?

    I'm starting to see a dangerous pattern. You are making a division between the visible and invisible, the spiritual and the material. This is how the ancient Gnostics saw the world; they separated things between the invisible and spiritual and the visible and material; where the material and visible things are not what matters, indeed because the material is fundamentally not good; where only the invisible and "spiritual" is good.

    But it's very easily demonstrable why such thinking is wrong and heretical. We read in the prologue of the Gospel of John that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    Our salvation was wrought not by invisible, immaterial, unknowable things; but through the visible, material, knowable reality of Jesus Christ who was conceived and born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried, and who rose from the dead on the third day bodily.

    It is by God taking a body, that we are saved. It is through the bodily suffering and death of Christ that God has worked to reconcile and save us.

    And how do we become the benefactors of what Christ has done? Through invisible, enigmatic, immaterial experiences? No, but by the word of Christ the preaching of the Gospel would begin in Jerusalem and then out to the world, that disciples would be made by baptizing them. What does St. Paul say in Romans 10? How can they call upon One whom they have not heard? How can they hear unless one is sent to preach? So what does the Apostle say? "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ", it is God's Word and Sacraments, the Means of Grace God has instituted and chosen, that we receive the work of Christ and God appropriates that work to us, converting us.

    For it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, says St. Paul in Titus 3:5, but "according to His own mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit", where is that washing of regeneration the renewal of the Holy Spirit found? Where does Scripture say this happens? Where does God meet man if not through His Word? His works? His gifts? Where He has promised to be and to act and to save: That the one who is baptized has not merely gotten wet, but has been clothed with Jesus Christ and all His righteousness.

    You received the white robes of Jesus Christ in the waters of Baptism. Because this Word has come to you, become you are baptized, you don't have to wonder whether or not God is saving you, you can trust in what God has said. You can believe God's word, you can believe God's promises. You can believe and trust in God. Jesus has your back, He is trustworthy, He is true.

    You don't have to look to yourself. You don't have to rely on yourself. You don't have to trust your works, your feelings, your thoughts, you can trust Jesus and what He has done, and what God has done in your life by the visible, tangible, and audible reality of the Word which is yours. Because God says so, because God made it so, He made it so in your baptism. He makes it so whenever you receive the very flesh and blood of Jesus Christ in and under the bread and the wine. When you confess your sins, you can know you are forgiven because God says so.

    Trust in the word which you have heard and received. Believe the good news.

    You are the child and offspring of God, by the adoption of His grace, you were made God's child in your baptism, whereby you received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, who is--as the Apostle St. Paul says, the guarantee of these things. It is for this reason that you can call out "Abba! Father!" for because you are in Christ, you have the God and Father of Jesus as your Father as well. This is wholly and entirely by the grace and kindness of God, and you can believe it, trust it, put your whole confidence in it because of God's indelible and irrevocable promise to you which He has made through His Word and Sacraments.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  18. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Setst RE: You may not be aware of this, but there has historically been confusion over what was meant by “water” in John 3:5. Some say the water represents the first birth from the womb, which would directly answer Nicodemus’ question as follows:

    John 3:4 (WEB) 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?””

    Lord Jesus’ response answers his question – being born the first time from the water of the womb, and the second time by the Spirit.

    Others say “water” represent the Word, for we are born again by the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23) and also the Spirit Jn 3:6. Therefore, the Word and Spirit work together to bring life to those who believe.

    1 Peter 1:23 (NIV) 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    James 1:18 (WEB) 18 Of his own will he gave birth to us by the Word of Truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures.

    Others, like you, believe water here means baptism by water, which most view as unlikely, and such is not stated in Jn 3:5, nor is such taught anywhere in Scripture.

    Setst RE: We must repent and believe in Jesus to be united with him. Once you believe, you are baptized (Mat 9:13; Lk 5:32; Lk 13:3; Lk 15:10; Lk 24:45-48; Acts 2:38; Acts 17:31; Acts 20:20-21; Acts 26:20; 2 Cor 7:10; 2 Pet 3:9). Dunking someone in water and saying words over them saves no one. See again John 3:14-18.

    All of Scripture commands and teaches us that we must repent (a complete change of mind, purpose, and life after learning the Gospel and salvation God offers), and then we are commanded to deny our selves, take up our cross and follow Jesus to be saved. OR, as the Apostles teach, we are commanded to put off the old man and its desires, and then to put on the new man (Romans 6; Ephesians 4:19-24; Colossians 2:7-10; Romans 12:1-2; 2 Corinthians 5:15). When we commit to do this, the Spirit indwells us to lead our faith to victory.

    As we continue in that faith in this way, we are walking by the Spirit of Christ in us – this is the only kind of faith that saves (Romans 8:12-14; Galatians 6:7-9; Galatians 5:24-25).

    Romans 8:12-14 (NIV)
    12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

    The Spirit will only indwells and give life to those who repent and have an obedient faith unto Jesus as Lord (Jn 7:37-39; Acts 5:32; Jn 14:15-17; Jn 14:23; Acts 2:38).

    Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are His witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

    John 14:15-17 (WEB). . . 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

    John 14:21 (WEB) 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”

    John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

    Acts 2:38 (WEB) 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Setst RE: You must repent and believe in Jesus, then you are baptized. Baptism is the sacrament showing the reality of your faith before God – that you died to your old life in the flesh, and have committed your life to Jesus. That is the repeated theme throughout the OT and NT Scriptures by which we receive the Spirit of God and salvation.

    Romans 1:16 (WEB)
    16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes

    The only acceptable faith is to be a disciple or follower of Jesus – then you are baptized…

    Matthew 28:18-19 (WEB) 18 Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

    setst777 said:
    There is only one Sacrament of Baptism

    whereby we make our public confession of repentance and faith - a commitment to renounce the old carnal way of life, and then to follow Lord Jesus. Yet, Paul was well aware, and addressed, the fact that not all those in the Church were true believers, and many would fall away.

    Setst RE:
    Colossians 2:12
    (WEB) 12 [You were] buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    1 Peter 3:21 (WEB)
    21 This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you—not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

    Matthew 2:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

    Setst RE: ??

    Setst RE: Lord Jesus commanded the Church to baptize disciples, and that is what the Apostles did by the command of Jesus – they baptized the believers in Jesus in water. We see this especially recorded in the Book of Acts.

    Matthew 2:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

    Setst RE: No Scripture states or teaches that God claims us as His own through water baptism. God claims us as his own through faith in Jesus in all the NT Scriptures – a true Gospel Faith after one repents, just as the Scriptures teach it

    See John 3:14-18

    setst777 said:
    Spiritual Baptism is a work of the Spirit
    as the Spirit wills
    (John 3:8) - to whomever the Spirit discerns has truly repented and received Lord Jesus as Lord (John 3:14-18; John 7:37-39).

    Setst RE:
    • By drinking/believing
    • After the glorification of Jesus.
    • The Old Testament believers were not given the Spirit by faith – only for the New Covenant.
    John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.

    setst777 said:
    We cannot tell who a true believer is

    - only the Spirit can. But we can baptize the "professing believer" in water as a member of the Church body - the physical Church we can see. The wheat and tares grow together, but the Spirit indwells the true believers.

    Setst RE: You can be assured of your salvation by obeying what God commands you to do, which is, to repent, and believe in the Lord Jesus – following Him. The Sprit indwells those who believe in Jesus in this way.

    Matthew 2:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

    This is not a works salvation. God wants YOU – your entire life to be His (a Disciple of Jesus). When God has YOU, then all that you do will be because you now follow Jesus as Lord of your life. You repented, and have renounced the old life, and are now living to listen to and follow Jesus by faith.

    We are commanded to be holy onto God to be granted the free gift of eternal life – only by faith.

    Romans 6:19-23 (WEB) 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 12:1-2 (WEB) Therefore I urge you, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. 2 Don’t be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what is the good, well-pleasing, and perfect will of God.

    2 Timothy 2:19 (WEB) 19 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”

    John 10:27-28 (WEB) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    1Peter 1:13-19 (WEB)
    13 Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober, and set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ — 14 as children of obedience, not conforming yourselves according to your former lusts as in your ignorance, 15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” [Leviticus 11:44-45]
    17 If you call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man’s work, pass the time of your living as foreigners here in reverent fear, 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ.

    setst777 said:
    Physical Church and Spiritual Church
    The Church we see with our eyes, the people in it, we cannot tell who the true Spirit filled believers are, only the Spirit knows. They are all baptized in water, but not everyone is a true believer or remains so.

    John 3:8 (WEB) 8 "The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    The Spirit's work in baptizing or submersing a true believer into the Body of Christ (Spiritual Church) is a work from above - from God.


    Setst RE: Nothing dangerous about the Word of God, except to those who are perishing.

    Israel is the Elect of God, the apple of His eye, yet not everyone in Israel will be saved – only a remnant.

    The Church is the Elect of God, not everyone who claims faith in Jesus is saved – only some.

    While the names of those who are saved are written in the Book of Life, they can be blotted out (Revelation 3:1-5) or cut off for unfaithfulness or re-added (Romans 11:22-24) if they repent.

    Romans 11:20-21 (WEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

    Setst RE: ?? Not in God’s Word.

    Revelation 3:2-5 (WEB) Jesus is speaking to the Church – one of the seven golden lampstands.
    2 Wake up and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you.
    4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
    5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    Blessings,
    Steven
     
  19. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

    +665
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    No.
    Their motive isn't to manifest God.
     
  20. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

    +665
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Scripture, please.

    How can one type of separation from God be any different than any other type of separation from God?
    Where did I make any such statement regarding 'others'?

    How is saying "Only the unregenerated still serve sin." a sin?
    If one has been reborn of Godly seed they can't commit sin.
    If you disagree, do you also think we can get grapes from fig trees?

    Like you just did with "some more than others"?

    I already have, thanks to the grace and gifts of repentance from sin, and rebirth, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, from God.

    And didn't He tell them to "Sin no more."?

    My repentance from sin is true, so I don't sin.

    Your judgement is clouded by your defense of sin.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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