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Featured What was Jesus saying when He said "you must be born again"

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by rhern, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Member

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    Not quite. Is is also found in 1 Corinthians 12:13 where it shows this baptism is to ALL believers:

    For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
     
  2. Paul4JC

    Paul4JC The trees of the LORD are well watered

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    You must be born of God, as you were born of your mother. It's a spiritual birth, explained in human terms allegory. Babies are born out of the mothers water or sack, first birth, now you must be born again of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    1 John 5:1a Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

    I was born again months before, my water baptism(whole different subject). No ritual will ever save you. Faith in Christ alone is what saves.

    Because the Lord Jesus explained it so. The Holy Spirit was present in Christ. It does not say Nicodemus was born again that night, though he may have as Jesus was functioning in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

    "unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God"!


    1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
    1 Peter 1:11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.
     
  3. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Welcome!
    Born again with His Holy Spirit ,once lost through Adam, now regained through the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. No water needed. Be blessed.

    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit,
     
  4. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Does this refer to baptism with the Holy Spirit, or does it refer to Baptism? The historic Christian interpretation of this passage is that this refers to Baptism, not "baptism with the Holy Spirit".

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  5. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    Why do you say "Some thing or some things in you must die", instead of "all of you must die"?
    2 Cor 5:17 says..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
    All things are made new.
    There wasn't a bit of us worth bringing with us.
     
  6. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    I gotta go with baptism of/by the Holy Spirit in 1 Cor 12:13..
    But 1 Cor 12:13 goes along with 1 Cor 6:11..."And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
    Having one baptism without the other is futile.
    "ye are washed" and "in the name of the Lord Jesus" are both references to Acts 2:38, which is a water baptism.
     
  7. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Greetings.

    I noticed your question and desire to respond.

    The entire 12th chapter of Corinthians is discussing the Spirit and His work within the Church - the Body of Christ.

    In fact, the first sentence of that Chapter sets the tone as to what Paul will be teaching.

    1 Corinthians 12:1 (WEB)
    1 Now concerning spiritual things, brothers, I don’t want you to be ignorant.

    The Spirit is mentioned twelve times in 1 Corinthians 12.

    Water baptism is not so much as hinted at in any way. The word "water" is not used anywhere.

    Lastly, when we consider that the whole Chapter is focused on the Spirit as the topic, then we understand what Paul clearly states - that he is discussing the Baptism in the Spirit in the very verse being contested...

    1 Corinthians 12:13 (WEB)
    13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

    The Greek word for "in" is also commonly translated as:
    in, on, at, with, by, among
    [Thayer's Greek Lexicon].

    In other words, the Body of Christ is immersed in the Spirit - each person (member) in the body is drinking of the same Spirit by faith.

    Blessings,
    Steven
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    In Baptism we are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the same way that we read in the Scripture "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" and "baptized into Christ" we know that this is not a "baptism in the name of Jesus" apart from ordinary Christian Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit; but rather that Christian Baptism covers all these things. In Baptism we are baptized into Christ and under His name and authority, in Baptism we are baptized into the Spirit and receive Him; in Baptism we are baptized into the household of faith under God the Father, who is our Father now by grace through adoption as children.

    By Baptism we are brought into union with God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    And this is also what the Church has always confessed and believed.

    The idea of there being a "baptism with the Holy Spirit" that is somehow a special something that each person experiences (though, how this could be is unclear, as Scripture certainly never says anything); as each of the two references to baptism with the Holy Spirit apply to those very specific events recorded in the Acts of the Apostles--at no point is an individual shown to be baptized with the Holy Spirit; it is always a public, profound moment that occurs suddenly by the will of God upon an entire group.

    I see no reason to believe that baptism with the Holy Spirit is anything other than what it is identified with in the Bible itself.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I've never understood this argument. Unless the argument is that for baptism to refer to baptism it has to say "water baptism", if that is the case, then I have to ask why?

    If I told you that I took a shower, do I need to say "I took a water shower"? Or would it be pretty obvious to you that water is implicated by the word shower and its ordinary usage? The latter, right?

    It's the same thing with baptism here, it's what the word meant to anyone who spoke Greek in the first century, and this is made all the more obvious because Christians always understood it to mean what it means from the beginning. It is only within the last few centuries that anyone ever suggested otherwise.

    I see no reason to believe the Bible means anything other than what it very plainly means, and how the Church has universally understood it to mean since the beginning. It seems very strange to me to believe in innovative, brand new doctrines that were never believed by Christians in the past.

    If I come to you with a brand new interpretation and teaching, which nobody has ever believed before--don't you think that's at least a little fishy?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  10. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for your reply.

    Paul actually does clearly identify that this is a Baptism by/in the Spirit, so there should be no confusion as to what or who we are immersed in (water or Spirit) as members of the body of Christ by reading that verse within the contest of the whole chapter - which is all about the Spirit.

    I do not agree that the Early Church Fathers understood 1 Corinthians 12:13 as referring to water baptism. I was just reading quotes from the Early Church Fathers.

    When we speak of baptism, there are two baptisms taught in Holy Scripture, and the Apostle Paul only teaches about Spiritual Baptism in 1 Corinthians 12:13.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 (WEB)
    13 For in/by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

    As well, notice in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that

    "
    we are all given to drink into one Spirit"

    So again, we are drinking of the Spirit, not water:

    John 7:37-39
    (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink!
    38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.
    39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.


    The 1st baptism is by water
    after one repents and believes in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

    The 2nd baptism is by the Spirit - in which the Spirit indwells those who believe to give them life.

    Luke 3:16 (WEB)
    16 John answered them all, “I indeed baptize you with water, but he comes who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to loosen. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire

    Blessings,
    Steven
     
  11. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    The New Covenant is all about change in man, about entering a relationship or communion with God, via faith, that man was made for, that he is lost and dead without, a relationship that by itself constitutes the right and just order of things for man. This is a relationship that Adam effectively dismissed and spurned and forfeited with and by his act of disobedience. But, “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

    We’re here to come to learn the meaning and truth of those words so that we may turn back to God, becoming new creations in the process, moving from death to life. Jesus came to effect reconciliation between God and man, by revealing the true God so that we may then know Him, and by knowing Him we may believe in, trust in, and ultimately love Him. Then man’s righteousness or justice would be complete.

    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.“ John 17:3
     
  12. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    Here I am not sure which baptism you refer to, but both apply.

    Still not clear.

    Do you see any difference at all between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

    I think it would be wise to use the word "water" before using the word baptism, unless the context is clearly not the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins. (Acts 2:38)
    I have entered the word "water" and "Spirit" into your post so as not to be confused.
    If I am wrong on any of my "entries" please let me know.

    Here are a couple of places where both water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Ghost are mentioned.
    Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
    Acts 8:15-16..."Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"
    Acts 19:5-6..."When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."[/QUOTE]
     
  13. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day,

    The reading of DA Carson's work on John's Gospel focused on " of water and Spirit". Get your OT ready.....

     
  14. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    "Bob took a shower today" does this mean Bob showered with water, or perhaps Bob showered with sand, or maybe something else? Or do you suppose that the word shower in itself provides sufficient inference by its standard use in language that water can be implied without explicitly mentioned?

    The word baptism, in Greek, means washing. baptism infers water because one doesn't regularly wash or bathe in something other than water. The Jewish practice of ritual washing and bathing in the mikveh, from which Christian Baptism comes from, was with water. John's baptism of repentance was a form of mikveh washing that was done for the anticipation and expectation of the coming of the Messiah. Jesus told His apostles, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..." By this Christ instituted what we call Christian Baptism, this is that Baptism which is "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit" as per Christ's own words in Matthew 28, which is in the name and authority of Christ for the remission of sins (see Acts 2:38), this is the same Baptism which Paul mentions throughout His letters, such as to the Romans where He says we were joined to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; or in Galatians 3:27 where he says that we have "put on Christ", or in Colossians where he says that we were buried with Christ in our baptism as a spiritual circumcision made without hands.

    This is Christian Baptism, and it happens with the use of water. It's what baptism itself infers, it's what the Apostles themselves taught and practiced, it's what Christians have always believed.

    I very much doubt that. I don't think there is any ambiguity here, it's pretty clear--and so I suspect it has nothing to do with clarity, and everything to do with being intentionally obtuse so as to avoid admitting what is quite plain and obvious.

    Yes. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is what happened on Pentecost, that's why Jesus Himself says that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit "not many days from now", and we see the connection between what John the Baptist said, that the One who came after him would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire--and that is exactly what happened on Pentecost. Jesus kept His promise, He sent the promised Holy Spirit, poured out on all flesh even as the Prophet Joel had spoken centuries earlier. The promise of God of the sending of the Holy Spirit was fulfilled, and the Church was empowered for its mission of preaching the Gospel, and the Apostles to go out and be Jesus' witnesses beginning first in Jerusalem and ultimately to the farthest reaches of the inhabited world--and the Church has continued that mission since then.

    The only other instance in the Bible that mentions baptism with the Holy Spirit is another event which looks a lot like Pentecost, and this is where St. Peter comes to the house of Cornelius, and the Spirit is again poured out upon the Gentiles, which Peter takes as a very clear sign that what God had given and done for the original Jewish believers God was doing also for the Gentiles; that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was for Jew and Gentile without discrimination. That is why Peter, explaining what happened, says that he was reminded of the words of Jesus about the baptism with the Holy Spirit which had happened with them at the beginning, that is, on Pentecost; and for this reason Peter did not withhold baptism from the Gentiles, but had the entire household baptized.

    Outside of Pentecost and Cornelius' house, I see no biblical support for the idea that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" refers to anything other than what the Bible itself mentions.

    At no point does the laying on of hands by the Apostles get called "baptism with the Holy Spirit". It just doesn't, that connection is never made in the Bible. Laying on of hands is its own thing, and is the antecedent of the Christian practice of Chrismation.

    If I say baptism, I mean baptism. If I want to speak of baptism with the Holy Spirit I'll say baptism with the Holy Spirit. I mean what I say, just like the Bible means what it says. It's not confusing. When the Bible mentions baptism, it means baptism. If it ever means something else, it explains what it means, hence "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is not baptism, it is "baptism with the Holy Spirit".

    There is no reason to believe baptism ever means anything other than baptism unless the text says so.

    No mention of baptism with the Holy Spirit, it mentions only Baptism.

    No mention of baptism with the Holy Spirit, it mentions that the Samaritans had received Baptism, and then later the apostles came and laid on hands, not baptism with the Holy Spirit (remembering that no where does the Bible call the laying on of hands "baptism with the Holy Spirit", that is never found in Scripture)

    No mention of baptism with the Holy Spirit, instead we see that Paul had them baptized, then he laid hands on them, but no "baptism with the Holy Spirit" to be found in the text. Baptism followed by laying on of hands (Chrismation) is what we see in Scripture; and is the basis for this practice throughout Christian history.

    It is why the baptized are anointed with oil, with hands laid on, as the sign and seal of the Holy Spirit. The application of holy oil (chrism) as the sign and seal of the Holy Spirit upon the baptized has been standard Christian practice since the Apostles, as we see right here in the book of the Acts of the Apostles.

    But "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is never associated with the Chrismation, or with some idea of a "second blessing" which Christians can get which has no biblical justification; neither is baptism with the Holy Spirit ever identified with anything other than the spontaneous outpouring of the Spirit as recorded in the 2nd chapter of the Acts, and in the 10th chapter of the Acts.

    I am more than willing to have my mind changed on this point, but I have as of yet encountered no arguments of substance which would provide me with an alternative exegesis that fits the observable data.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Doing what cross referencing I can between 1 Corinthians 12:13, where the material becomes meaningfully relevant to this discussion, it would appear that the fathers do just that,

    "Let us now consider whether as we read that the sacrament of baptism in the Name of Christ was complete, so, too, when the Holy Spirit alone is named, anything is wanting to the completeness of the mystery. Let us follow out the argument that he who has named One has signified the Trinity. If you name Christ, you imply both God the Father by Whom the Son was anointed, and the Son Himself Who was anointed, and the Holy Spirit with Whom He was anointed. For it is written: 'This Jesus of Nazareth, Whom God anointed with the Holy Spirit.' And if you name the Father, you denote equally His Son and the Spirit of His mouth, if, that is, you apprehend it in your heart. And if you speak of the Spirit, you name also God the Father, from Whom the Spirit proceeds, and the Son, inasmuch as He is also the Spirit of the Son.

    Wherefore that authority may also be joined to reason Scripture indicates that we can also be rightly baptized in the Spirit, when the Lord says: 'But you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit.' And in another place the Apostle says: 'For we were all baptized in the body itself into one Spirit.' The work is one, for the mystery is one; the baptism one, for there was one death on behalf of the world; there is, then, a oneness of working, a oneness of setting forth, which cannot be separated.
    " - St. Ambrose, On the Holy Spirit, Book I, Ch. 3, 44-45

    Ambrose is addressing the fact that when we read of baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" it is not contrary to Christ's words of baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit; but rather that to name one of the Divine Persons is to infer all. To name the Father does not exclude the Son and the Spirit, but includes them, for the Father is never alone but always united with His Son and Spirit; likewise Christ is never alone but is always with the Father and the Spirit, et al. Thus, here, Ambrose sees the Apostle in referring to "for we were all baptized in the body itself into one Spirit" as again, a reference to the Spirit, not by Himself, but as the Spirit with the Father and the Son. This is made more plain by looking at the larger context surrounding this passage. Feel free to read it for yourself here.

    We see pretty much the same thing in the work of St. Basil,

    "Let no one be misled by the fact of the apostle's frequently omitting the name of the Father and of the Holy Spirit when making mention of baptism, or on this account imagine that the invocation of the names is not observed. 'As many of you,' he says, 'as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ;' and again, 'As many of you as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death.' For the naming of Christ is the confession of the whole, showing forth as it does the God who gave, the Son who received, and the Spirit who is, the unction. So we have learned from Peter, in the Acts, of 'Jesus of Nazareth whom God anointed with the Holy Ghost;' and in Isaiah, 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me;' and the Psalmist, 'Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.' Scripture, however, in the case of baptism, sometimes plainly mentions the Spirit alone.

    'For into one Spirit,' it says, 'we were all baptized in one body.' And in harmony with this are the passages: 'You shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost,' and 'He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.' But no one on this account would be justified in calling that baptism a perfect baptism wherein only the name of the Spirit was invoked. For the tradition that has been given us by the quickening grace must remain for ever inviolate. He who redeemed our life from destruction gave us power of renewal, whereof the cause is ineffable and hidden in mystery, but bringing great salvation to our souls, so that to add or to take away anything involves manifestly a falling away from the life everlasting. If then in baptism the separation of the Spirit from the Father and the Son is perilous to the baptizer, and of no advantage to the baptized, how can the rending asunder of the Spirit from Father and from Son be safe for us? Faith and baptism are two kindred and inseparable ways of salvation: faith is perfected through baptism, baptism is established through faith, and both are completed by the same names. For as we believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, so are we also baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; first comes the confession, introducing us to salvation, and baptism follows, setting the seal upon our assent.
    " - St. Basil, On the Holy Spirit, Ch. XII, 28

    The entire work quoted above can be read here.

    If there are patristic statements and works which provide a different interpretation of the passage, I'd certainly be interested--but I am unable to find anything which suggests otherwise.

    Here is a whole number of patristic works which have a cross reference to 1 Corinthians 12:13 if you'd like to take a look yourself.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    The good parts are worth preserving or keeping, since we start out both good and bad, etc, love, compassion for your fellow man, and sinners, most especially sinners, etc, a voice that cries out for justice, goodness and mercy, etc, you really don't want to loose those, etc, or you are completely lost, etc, but everything else, everything tied to ego, and egotism, personal pride in oneself and ones own personal abilities, etc, (since it is not "you", etc) anyway, must die or must go, etc...

    Many do not truly do it/that though, even very many so-called Christians, etc...

    If anything, some of them get worse, etc, while claiming to be His or one of His, etc...

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  17. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    I think the word "shower" shows the implication of water.

    I agree entirely, with the stipulation that my concordance defines "baptizo" as "fully whelmed" or "immersed".

    Agreed.

    I agree with your obvious definitions of water baptism in its proper place.
    It just that your initial post left me wondering.

    Agreed.
    I was afraid your post was calling both kinds of baptism the same baptism.

    Agreed.

    Agreed, though I would include the twelve at Ephesus' experience too.

    I feel that the gift of the Holy Ghost, in any fashion, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
    God gave the gift, outright, in Acts 2 and at Cornelius' home, but used the hands of the apostles at Samaria and Ephesus.

    Please describe Chrismation.

    Me too, but there are occasions where I will say "water baptism" when illustrating differences between water baptism and the giving of the Holy Ghost.

    I feel the giving of the Holy Ghost, in any form or manner, is a baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    We simply have differing "labels" for the giving of the Holy Ghost.

    Again, just different labels for the "immersion" of the Holy Ghost.

    That sounds more like an aspect of certain sects, rather than an apostolic tradition or necessity.
    I find no mention at all of oil being used at water baptism or in/for God's giving of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Wasn't the giving of the gift of the Holy Ghost "spontaneous" enough for you when the twelve at Ephesus received the Holy Ghost?
    Or at Samaria?
    Just because God justified the apostles with a using if their hands to transmit the Spirit doesn't minimize the "spontaneity" of the immersion.

    Your position is that if the giving of the gift of the Holy Ghost isn't a "stand alone" event it isn't a "baptism of the Holy Spirit".
    My position is that any giving of the Holy Ghost, by whatever manner God uses, is a baptism of the Holy Spirit.
    We only differ on what qualifies as a Spirit baptism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  18. Phil W

    Phil W Well-Known Member

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    We differ here, as there is nothing "good" about a sinner.

    Again, there is nothing good about a servant of sin.
    They hate God.
    As Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matt 6:24)
    Servants of sin despise God.
     
  19. Tony B

    Tony B New Member

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    Yes and no. Yes, baptism of the heart is necessary, baptism in water is not necessary and is only of use as a symbolic gesture and an outward expression of what must happen inwardly first. Many denominations and individuals have felt there is something mystical in itself in the act of water baptism, and there isn't. Your spirit can only be born again if you accept the gift of faith in Jesus that God offers out to you, and that then empowers you to truly believe in His existence and have a deeper understanding of Who He is, and what He has done for you. Following that of course, God takes you on a path that confirms Jesus’ faithfulness towards you, and at the same time helping you change for the better through the Holy Spirit’s prompting. He will also at times test the strength of your loyalty and commitment to Him, and not to any man derived religion or theology. Keep your Christianity simple!
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Your wrong, but "whatever"...

    I know many people that still sin that are much better people than a Pharisee, who thought they did not or did not ever sin at all anymore, etc...

    And so did Jesus, etc...

    We are all sold into and serve sin sometimes, everybody but Jesus and Jesus and Jesus alone anyway...

    But we do try and keep it to a minimum when and where we can, or as best we can anyway, which is more than I can say for you, etc...

    Again, I know many people that still sin that are much better people than a Pharisee, etc...

    And so did Jesus, etc...

    Jesus was talking about how one cannot serve God and money or material wealth and gain (mammon) in that scripture passage that you are taking out of it's context and twisting into what you want it to mean, in that scripture in it's context, etc...

    He was directly addressing specific sins having to do with serving God and material and monetary wealth and/or gain in that passage, etc, and He was very, very clear about that, etc, but you are twisting it and using it for what you want it to apply to and/or mean, etc, which offends me a lot, A LOT, but is what all of your kind does, and does "a lot", etc, and I'm pretty sure God takes very, very seriously as well, etc...

    Considering how you just (greatly) sinned just now, as I just now pointed out of above, taking scripture out of it's context and using it for your own aim, in order to condemn sinners, etc, and not for what Jesus really said, and applied it to, and meant, etc, that's not saying much, etc...

    Not the first time I have caught you doing this and pointed it out either, etc, and is a much more serious sin, than what you would point out in other sinners, etc, handling the Word of God or Truth abusively, etc, or for not what it was meant to mean, and/or in order to just condemn others who are not like you, yet who are just like you, etc...

    A Truth you will clearly deny, etc...

    Anyway,

    God Bless!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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