What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
All that for nothing friend. People are Sheep, Elect, before they are believers, and its why they shall be believers.
Yes your one isolated verse is for nothing which an entire theology is based upon- its called sinking sand, a shaky foundation.

We are all familiar with the fact that Christ knows His sheep and we (His sheep) follow Him.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know (γινώσκω) them, and they follow Me.
John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.

Let's focus on the fact that Christ "know" (γινώσκω) his sheep. When does God "know" His sheep? It's when we turned away from our former ways (Gal 4:8-9) and believed "in Christ" (Gal 2:16):

Gal 4:8 But then, indeed, not knowing God, you served as slaves to those not by nature being gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you again desire to slave anew?

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

God's knowing us (γινώσκω) means that we are now relationally known by God. That does not detract from God's omniscience.

This all means that His sheep are already in a deep relationship with Him, they are already "in Christ" because they already believe "in Christ". In other words, they are not an arbitrary set of elected individuals independent of whether or not they believe"in Christ". They are believers positioned already "in Christ".

The bottom line, and what Calvinists fail to realize, is that it's only through and "in Christ" that we are known by Christ as His sheep. There is no such thing as an unconditional election to salvation.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know (γινώσκω) them, and they follow Me.

Qualifiers for being His sheep is:
  1. They hear Christ's voice.
  2. Christ knows (γινώσκω) them.
  3. They follow Christ.
Let's see if sheep from another fold qualify for being Christ's Sheep as per John 10:27.

Item #1: There's no proof that every single sheep in another fold hears Christ's voice. STRIKE 1
Item #2: The word γινώσκω is relational, bilateral, bidirectional, two ways. How can every sheep in another fold, under an heretical shepherd, relationally know Christ? Therefore that form of "knowing" only exists in one's imagination. STRIKE 2
Item #3: They most certainly are not following Christ because at that moment as they within another fold and under another shepherd. STRIKE 3

Three strikes, You'rrrrrrrr out!

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The parable is figurative and represents 2 different kinds of people, its not about animals but the human heart. Its about being loving towards others, kind, compassionate, empathetic, loving and not selfish etc.... The difference is in behavior between the two groups of peoples as represented by the sheep and goats. We know animals are not considerate or selfish those are human traits not animal characteristics. The sheep ( people ) in the parable are merciful, kind, generous, loving and willing to do whatever it takes so they can to help others. Jesus regarded them that as much as you did it to them they were doing it to Him.

The sheep(people ) because they were unselfishness , kind, loving, giving, empathetic and giving will be those who will inherit the kingdom of God whereas the goats ( people ) will not because they were selfish, self-centered and self-seeking. They will not inherit the kingdom of God for they were unloving and unkind.

Those who are dedicated to loving will receive love in return and those who are not will not and be condemned .

This parable has nothing whatsoever to do with goats becoming or not becoming sheep, that is the calvinists strawman.

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes your one isolated verse is for nothing which an entire theology is based upon- its called sinking sand, a shaky foundation.

We are all familiar with the fact that Christ knows His sheep and we (His sheep) follow Him.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know (γινώσκω) them, and they follow Me.
John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.

Let's focus on the fact that Christ "know" (γινώσκω) his sheep. When does God "know" His sheep? It's when we turned away from our former ways (Gal 4:8-9) and believed "in Christ" (Gal 2:16):

Gal 4:8 But then, indeed, not knowing God, you served as slaves to those not by nature being gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, knowing God, but rather are known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements to which you again desire to slave anew?

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ; even we believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by works of the Law. For all flesh will not be justified by works of law.

God's knowing us (γινώσκω) means that we are now relationally known by God. That does not detract from God's omniscience.

This all means that His sheep are already in a deep relationship with Him, they are already "in Christ" because they already believe "in Christ". In other words, they are not an arbitrary set of elected individuals independent of whether or not they believe"in Christ". They are believers positioned already "in Christ".

The bottom line, and what Calvinists fail to realize, is that it's only through and "in Christ" that we are known by Christ as His sheep. There is no such thing as an unconditional election to salvation.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know (γινώσκω) them, and they follow Me.

Qualifiers for being His sheep is:
  1. They hear Christ's voice.
  2. Christ knows (γινώσκω) them.
  3. They follow Christ.
Let's see if sheep from another fold qualify for being Christ's Sheep as per John 10:27.

Item #1: There's no proof that every single sheep in another fold hears Christ's voice. STRIKE 1
Item #2: The word γινώσκω is relational, bilateral, bidirectional, two ways. How can every sheep in another fold, under an heretical shepherd, relationally know Christ? Therefore that form of "knowing" only exists in one's imagination. STRIKE 2
Item #3: They most certainly are not following Christ because at that moment as they within another fold and under another shepherd. STRIKE 3

Three strikes, You'rrrrrrrr out!

hope this helps !!!
You wasting up space.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

The parable is figurative and represents 2 different kinds of people, its not about animals but the human heart. Its about being loving towards others, kind, compassionate, empathetic, loving and not selfish etc.... The difference is in behavior between the two groups of peoples as represented by the sheep and goats. We know animals are not considerate or selfish those are human traits not animal characteristics. The sheep ( people ) in the parable are merciful, kind, generous, loving and willing to do whatever it takes so they can to help others. Jesus regarded them that as much as you did it to them they were doing it to Him.

The sheep(people ) because they were unselfishness , kind, loving, giving, empathetic and giving will be those who will inherit the kingdom of God whereas the goats ( people ) will not because they were selfish, self-centered and self-seeking. They will not inherit the kingdom of God for they were unloving and unkind.

Those who are dedicated to loving will receive love in return and those who are not will not and be condemned .

This parable has nothing whatsoever to do with goats becoming or not becoming sheep, that is the calvinists strawman.

hope this helps !!!
Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You wasting up space.
That is what you do so stop projecting. Since you are incapable of refuting me as usual you result to ad hominems. The truth cannot be refuted which is why you avoid answering me with scripture.

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
Answered by the Apostle John under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in 1 John 2:2.

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You wasting up space.
Read and learn about sheep and understand the purpose of a metaphor. Nowhere in scripture do we find anyplace where people are born sheep. There is more than the one solitary verse you quote all of the time RIPPED from away the biblical narrative.

The symbolic importance of sheep
Israel without a leader 1Ki 22:17 See also Nu 27:16-17; 2Sa 24:17; Zec 10:2; 13:7; Mt 26:31

Helplessness Isa 53:7; Mt 9:36 See also Ps 44:11; 49:14; Jer 12:3; Mt 10:16; Ro 8:36; Ps 44:22

Judgment Mt 25:32-33 See also Eze 34:17

Sin Isa 53:6; 1Pe 2:25 See also Ps 119:176; Eze 34:16; Mt 18:12

The people that belong to God Ps 100:3 See also Ps 74:1; 78:52; 79:13; Jer 23:1; 50:6; Eze 34:11-15; Mic 2:12

Jesus Christ’s care for his own Lk 12:32; Jn 10:1-16,26-30 See also Jn 21:16-17; Heb 13:20

Martin H. Manser, Dictionary of Bible Themes: The Accessible and Comprehensive Tool for Topical Studies (London: Martin Manser, 2009).
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
All that for nothing friend. People are Sheep, Elect, before they are believers, and its why they shall be believers.
Yes all your ranting about sheep for nothing.

Matthew 15:24- But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:6- But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

are you of the house of Israel ? yes or no

are you a Jew ? yes or no

John 10:26 — 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Were you ever an unbeliever ? yes so by default you were not born a sheep. Jesus said sheep are believers, not unbelievers.

Israelites were the sheep of God which had gone astray and each one turned to their own way.
you are trying to create a category which exists nowhere in scripture

and you really are not doing well so maybe you should do a study on sheep in scripture and get an idea as to the meaning of sheep in scripture- who and what they represent and I gave you plenty of scripture references to start with your study.

I will toss this in as well for you to consider.

Ephesians 2:11–12 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

1-Far from being in Christ you were in adam

2- Definitely you were not born his sheep

3- you were not born hearing Christ's voice and following Him

4- You are reading your theology into scripture

hope this helps !!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,006
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
It was only relevant commentary, neither intended as opposition nor support. Just something to bear in mind in defining what is the seed of Abraham, and what is meant by 'Israel' and 'of Israel'.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You cannot understand 1 John 2:2 and the atonement .
I get it, you ashamed of what you believe abut Christ:

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
 
Upvote 0

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I get it, you ashamed of what you believe abut Christ:

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
It says He died for not only the sins of believers( our sins) but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD( those who hate God, have a reprobate mind, children of wrath etc.....)

You should learn what the bible actually teaches not what you have been told. You read the bible with a biased opinion without any objectivity, but only a subjective mind based upon the teachings of a dead man named calvin and his mentor augustine who corrupted the church with his false manachean, gnostic, pagan and greek philosophy that he married with christianity.

next..............
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It says He died for not only the sins of believers( our sins) but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD( those who hate God, have a reprobate mind, children of wrath etc.....)

You should learn what the bible actually teaches not what you have been told. You read the bible with a biased opinion without any objectivity, but only a subjective mind based upon the teachings of a dead man named calvin and his mentor augustine who corrupted the church with his false manachean, gnostic, pagan and greek philosophy that he married with christianity.

next..............
You still scared and skirting around the question:

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,006
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
I get it, you ashamed of what you believe abut Christ:

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
I wouldn't get too cocky. @Jesus is YHWH has never seemed to me ashamed of what he believes about Christ. It may seem that way to you, because he is willing to admit he doesn't know it all, and could be wrong about some things.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You still scared and skirting around the question:

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
Repeating yourself with the same question that’s been answered reveals you cannot defend your beliefs . And you ran from all the scriptures I posted proving your beliefs are heretical.

hope this helps !!!
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Repeating yourself with the same question that’s been answered reveals you cannot defend your beliefs . And you ran from all the scriptures I posted proving your beliefs are heretical.

hope this helps !!!
You dont have any backbone to voice what you believe, what kind of testimony is that ?

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I wouldn't get too cocky. @Jesus is YHWH has never seemed to me ashamed of what he believes about Christ. It may seem that way to you, because he is willing to admit he doesn't know it all, and could be wrong about some things.
Let me ask you sir,

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,006
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,938.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Let me ask you sir,

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
For whatever it might be worth to you, @Jesus is YHWH and I are at polar opposites on many things. I do not here defend his beliefs, but his reputation. There is nothing to be gained by insulting him.


It is not uncommon for me to be identified as a Calvinist, or Reformed, as I love TULIP (all five) and the five solas, and pretty much all the doctrinal particulars of Calvinism, particularly the basics, such as the absolute Sovereignty of God. But I only call myself Reformed so that people know at the outset, pretty much where my beliefs are —I did not learn what I believe from other Reformed or Calvinists.

SO:

If your question uses "died for" to mean that God intended to save everyone, or that he intended to save a random bunch of people, but nobody in particular, then NO, I do not believe that.

If your question uses "died for" to mean that everything that Calvary did for the elect is the same as what it did for the reprobate, then NO, I do not believe that.

If your question uses "died for" to mean that Calvary has certain effects upon the reprobate, but not salvation and not payment nor forgiveness of their sins then, yes, I agree with that.

If your question uses "for" to indicate that salvation is "offered" to the reprobate, then I reluctantly say, "yes", though I don't like the terminology of "offer", as it is misleading.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
Supporter
Dec 15, 2011
3,496
1,726
✟389,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You dont have any backbone to voice what you believe, what kind of testimony is that ?

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No
Actually its you that doesn't have the backbone not me as you are projecting again. It is actually you that ran away from the other forum carm when I confronted your theology in front of all the calvinists who agreed with me and your little frien that gave you rep points 24/7 and followed you around everywhere. if you want I can provide the link so everyone can see foe themselves what really happened.
 
Upvote 0