What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

[oikonomia]

I look at this as the same as "imputed." We are "imputed" righteous through Christ and in Adam, many (who had not sinned according to God's command not to eat from the fruit of the tree) were imputed as sinners. When the law came, it demonstrated that was just and applied sin individually, not just corporately.

Rom 5:13-14 NASB95 - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

That makes good sense. But I think we lose something though we gain.
Yes, indeed we were imputed sinfulness and we have been imputed righteousness.
But imputation is kind of objective and outward coming down upon us.

We had something subjectively poison us in Adam's fall.
And in Christ's resurrection and becoming in us the "life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) subjectively the antitote is ministered INTO us.

But I like constituted because our constitution as the "fabric" of our being was corrupted by Adam's eating of that forbidden fruit.
And we are not only justified but constituted as to a transformation in the "fabric' (for lack of a better word) through Christ's full salvation.

It was not immediately that I thought the eating of a fruit made any difference.
After some years Romans chapter 7 dawned upon me in a fuller way.
Something evil lived in Paul's fallen body.

I had to cave in to the unusual and hard to explain apparent revelation that
the descendents of Adam suffered a change in their constitution - they now had a corrupted, fallen, sin filled body.

Do not ask me about the chemistry of this. I just know that the Bible shows the corruption of the fallen body into what
is negativly referred to as the flesh. Even in Genesis the fallen body was condemned as the flesh, getting worse and worse.

And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.
And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and now I am about to destroy them with the earth. (Gen. 6:12,13)

Compare to Paul's revelation:

Romans 7:5 - For when we were in the flesh, the passions for sins, which acted through the law, operated in our members to bear fruit to death.

For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshy, sold under sin. (v.14)

Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me.
For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not. (vs. 17,18)

In light of the entire book of Romans, isn't Paul speaking of such a thorough re-constitution of our whole being that all
Christ's work is unto eternal life?

For if, by the offense of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:1)

What I mean is this reigning in life has a destination of the consummate result - "eternal life."

In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Of course "eternal life" is a gift. John's gospel is certain on that. And Paul's letters surely agree.
But here eternal life is grown into, matured into, we reign in Christ as life and reign and more reign - the climax is "unto eternal life."

I means we all know about Justification by Faith a rock bottom truth of the gospel.
But here Paul speaks of "the justification of [divine] life" a life that must permeat our constitution.

Notice - ". . . gracious gift is out of many offenses unto justification." (v.16)
And - " . . . so also it was through one righteous act unto justification of life to all men."

This "justification of life" appears by this time in Romans to be the life that we LIVE.
We live Christ. Christ indwells us to transform our living resulting in the justication of life.

This has to be in addition to imputing. It is imputing and subjectively dispensing Himself into the "fabric" of our
entire spirit and soul and body - ("sanctify you WHOLLY") - (1 Thess. 5:23)

In addition to the imputing "Justification by Faith" do you see Paul moving beyond that foundation to "Justification of Life"?
I see that as Romans progresses, laying down layer after lay of basic teaching of God's complete and full salvation.

No. Humans and animals have "the breath of life" and blood (the life is in the blood). The Hebrew term is Nephesh Chaya or "soulish life." The soul is the mind, will, and emotions. Animals have this, but plants do not. Plants are biological machines with no soul. Since plants don't have "life" as the Bible defines it, they cannot "die" as the Bible defines it.

I read a counter to this. But I will not belabor it now.
I think at Inspirering Philosophy I recall a Christian apologist going into the language matter in Hebrew to discuss that point.

It seems not that meaningful. And you may be completely right - no souls for plants.
It goes on the back burner today. Thanks.

I have been thinking much about your take on Hebrews 2:15.
An exposition quite like that on that verse seems new to me, and interesting.

If I understood you right, that is.
The fear of death is the driving power of sinning.
Now I think there has to be some truth to that.

Now let me ask you though.
Before Adam sinned did the warning about dying put within Adam a "fear of death" as well?

I contemplated this. Maybe I thought too much. But I said, "Now if I believe that fear of death is really the
main ingredient to man's sinfulness, didn't Adam, innocent and nuetral for a season, have a "fear of death" instilled
in him by the divine warning - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Gen. 2:17)

Take you time to reply if you have one.
Hebrews 2:15 - for our re-reading and enjoyment - And might release those who because of the fear of death through all their life were held in slavery.

 

[Gup20]

Now let me ask you though.
Before Adam sinned did the warning about dying put within Adam a "fear of death" as well?

I contemplated this. Maybe I thought too much. But I said, "Now if I believe that fear of death is really the
main ingredient to man's sinfulness, didn't Adam, innocent and nuetral for a season, have a "fear of death" instilled
in him by the divine warning - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Gen. 2:17)

Take you time to reply if you have one.
Hebrews 2:15 - for our re-reading and enjoyment - And might release those who because of the fear of death through all their life were held in slavery.

This is an interesting question.

​

Heb 10:1-3 NASB95 - 1 For the Law, since it has [only] a shadow of the good things to come [and] not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those [sacrifices] there is a reminder of sins year by year.​

If we examine this passage it says if we were able to be fully cleansed, we would have no knowledge (consciousness) of sin. Remember, before he sinned, Adam had no knowledge of sin, death, or evil. In other words, he had no understanding of this. But after sin, he did understand good AND evil.

​

Gen 3:22 NASB95 - 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"​

The implication here is that Adam didn't know good and evil (only good) before he sinned. When Adam sinned, he activated a new knowledge within himself for his conscience knew he deserved punishment. So John says:

​

1Jo 4:18 NASB95 - 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.​

It is hard to say that Adam understood sin and death until he deserved it. Once he deserved death, he would then fear punishment.

The phrase in Gen 2:17 where it says "you shall surely die" is literally translated "and dying, you shall surly die." In other words the process of death would start and it would be certain that you would die.

My thought is that the Word of God created all that is, and He said "if you eat of it you will die." The Word of the Lord created death by this command, but death was not activated in the world until sin. We see thorns and thistles result from the curse of death - an obvious genetic difference from prior to the fall. So the question is, did God change our DNA at the curse, or did God build this DNA (for dealing with death in the world) into us from the beginning in preparation for our fall? Perhaps God built us with all this "wisdom" of how our bodies would need to change in a cursed world and simply activated those genes at the curse. Perhaps this fits with your notion on the fabric of man (fabric could be DNA). If we are living with the "knowledge (wisdom) of death" or the genes God prepared in us for when death was our master, could be seen as the corruption. Or perhaps death - being a separation from God who is life - is the source of the corruption. At any rate, the corruption seems to have not emerged until after sin as a result of God's judgement.

I'll have to go back and look at the passages on "knowledge of good and evil." If knowledge is "information" and DNA is an information system (which it is), then a possible interpretation of this passage is that our DNA changed when we gained the "knowledge of good and evil." Is the knowledge our knowledge? It is God's knowledge? Or is it just "information" added to who we are?

 

[oikonomia]

This is an interesting question.

Your thoughts are interesting also. It is a win / win discussion to me, because it causes us both to dive into the oracles of God.
I think Paul's thought is exceeedingly deep. And now we see through a glass darkly. Eventually, we will see face to face.

Heb 10:1-3 NASB95 - 1 For the Law, since it has [only] a shadow of the good things to come [and] not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those [sacrifices] there is a reminder of sins year by year.​

I will have to go back to Hebrews 10 to get a good refreshing grasp on these things.
I want to say that Romans 5 is a turning point where the focus has been in SINS and turns to SIN (nature).

Up to Rom. 5:11 SINS [plural] have been elaborated on - individual transgressions. From Rom. 5:11 SIN [singular] is dealt with.
This [singular] SIN nature is henceforth described as a personified "person" infesting man.
In Romans 5 through 8 are the attributes which cause SIN as a nature to act as a personified thing.

Sin is like a person who can "reign."
In order that just as sin reigned in death, (v.21)

Sin like a person can "lord" it over people.
For sin will not lord it over you, (6:14)

Sin acts as a person who seizes opportunity.
For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, (7:11)

Sin like a person can deceive and kill people.
For sin deceived me and through it killed me. (7:11)

Sin can dwell in people and do things against their will.
Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me. (7:17)
But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me. (7:20)

Sin like a person is quite alive.
but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. (7:7)

So SIN [singular] is as an evil personified "person" attached to man as a parasite from the disobedience of Adam.
From Roman 5:11 GRACE is Christ, a stronger Person who alone is able to overcome this insidious personified nature.
One verse now I think establishes this, though there are many.
In order that just as sin reigned in death, so also
grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 5:21)

Satan as sin reigns, but Christ as grace more reigns.
Satan as sin abounded, but Christ as grace superabounded.
but where sin abounded, grace has superabounded, (5:20b)

If we examine this passage it says if we were able to be fully cleansed, we would have no knowledge (consciousness) of sin. Remember, before he sinned, Adam had no knowledge of sin, death, or evil. In other words, he had no understanding of this. But after sin, he did understand good AND evil.

​

Gen 3:22 NASB95 - 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"​

Now that Adam became infested with a personified thing - SIN he had become "Satanified."
Perhaps the incident of Judas eating a morsal in utter hypocrisy caused Satan to enter into him, might illustrate.
And at that moment, after the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus therefore said to him, What you do, do quickly. (John 13:27)

Satan was in the air, somehow in the serpent, and became the evil spirit operating in the sons of disobedience, the descendents of Adam.
In which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience; (Eph. 2:2)

Now this "knowledge of good and evil" was something that God had.
And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever — (Gen. 3:22)

What I would say about your emphasis on "good AND EVIL" is that if Adam already knew GOOD then it would
have been just a warning against a tree of EVIL. "Ie. Behold the man has become like one of Us knowing [EVIL.]"

But it could be with the emphasis you point out.
I think the main thing is that it was a choice to be autonomous and not dependent upon God.
Satan took the lead to be the automous being completely independent from God and even to usurp God's ultimate authority.

Adam stepped out from under the authority of God and under the authority of darkness - this evil being who invented
independence from God. Satan entered him with the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He is in man's fallen body which became the flesh.

It was a tree of DEATH. It was a tree of independence from God which can only mean death.
It was a source which seeks to have what God has but independent and autonomous from God.
And the neutral man who was innocent now was no longer in a neutral stage.
Adam moved under the authority of Satan.

He now had the knowledge of good and evil.
Yet, he did not have the life power to always perform the good that he knows.
And he did not have the life power to resist the evil that he knows.


For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am fleshy, sold under sin [as a nature]. (Rom. 7:14)

For what I work out, I do not acknowledge; for what I will, this I do not practice; but what I hate, this I do. (v.15)

But if what I do not will, this I do, I agree with the law that it is good. (v.16)

Now then it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me. (v.17)

For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, nothing good dwells;
for to will is present with me, but to work out the good is not. (v.18)

For I do not do the good which I will; but the evil which I do not will, this I practice. (v.19)

But if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me. (v.20)

I find then the law, with me who wills to do the good, because the evil is present with me. (v.21)

What a background Paul is painting for the glorious salvation of the indwelling Spirit of Christ
in chapter 8.

The implication here is that Adam didn't know good and evil (only good) before he sinned. When Adam sinned, he activated a new knowledge within himself for his conscience knew he deserved punishment. So John says:

​

1Jo 4:18 NASB95 - 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.​

I need to revisit First John and Hebrews to get more appreciation of your explanations here.

I have to close here. But in light of the whole Scripture God wants to live in man.
Before Adam moved from a position of neutrality and innocence to CHOOSE one source or the opposite -
Satan entered to live in him.

Satan's way is to run ahead of God to mock God's purpose.
He has nothing original. He can only imitate God's eternal purpose in a most destructive, degraded, and corrupt way.
Satan attached man to himself and himself to man thinking he won a great victory over the plan of God.

This negative background will be exposed in the bright relief of the Triune God in Christ entering into man as divine life.
As man spontaneously expresses Satan to whom he is joined the full salvation is that the sons of God
are being brought into a even more spontaneous expression of the indwelling Person of eternal life - Christ.

Praise Him for the unspeakable gift.
Adam was a TYPE of the coming one.

And in this coming One, Christ as Grace, we can much more be saved in the whole realm of His indwelling life.
Before verse 11 is verse 10 saying Christ as a realm of life will be our much more salvation.

For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled, (Rom. 5:10)

I have to stop here. Talk more with you latter.
I would like to add more about -

It is hard to say that Adam understood sin and death until he deserved it. Once he deserved death, he would then fear punishment.

The phrase in Gen 2:17 where it says "you shall surely die" is literally translated "and dying, you shall surly die." In other words the process of death would start and it would be certain that you would die.

"In dying you shall surely die."
Yes. And praise the Lord in living we shall also surely live.
Amen.

We may lay hold of the life which is life indeed. We can lay hold of the life which is really life.
Fight the good fight of the faith; lay hold on the eternal life, (1 Tim. 6:12a)
that they may lay hold on that which is really life. (v.19b)

 

[oikonomia]

The implication here is that Adam didn't know good and evil (only good) before he sinned. When Adam sinned, he activated a new knowledge within himself for his conscience knew he deserved punishment.

It seems that the conscience of Adam came into function.
It seems that God created in man a breaking system or stop measure IN CASE man sinned.

Comment if you would on the second question God asked Adam after he ate:
And He said, Who told you that you are naked? (Gen. 3:11a)

So John says:

​

1Jo 4:18 NASB95 - 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.​

This certainly reflects on the first question God asked Adam:

And Jehovah God called to the man and said to him, Where are you?
And he said, I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I am naked; so I hid myself. (Gen. 3:9,10)

What do you think about that?
1.) Where are you?
2.) Who told you?

It is hard to say that Adam understood sin and death until he deserved it. Once he deserved death, he would then fear punishment.

Now do you believe that Satan sinned when he lied, twisting God's words?
When Satan slandered God, was that a sin?

I believe that Satan sinned.
So when the Bible says that through one man sin entered into the world, there must be some parameters of "the world."

Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned — (Rom. 5:12)

I reason this way:
Now the serpent was in the world there. And the serpent sinned.
Behind or within the serpent was Satan. He was somewhere and he sinned in slandering God.
So when Paul says "through one man sinned entered into the world' there should be some scope larger than
the world of Adam where sin had already entered.

And if so, beyond the parameters of what was "the world" to Adam death as well could have already been introduced.

You said you think Adam did not know what death was about?
Do you think that Satan knew what death was?
If so, do you think Satan knew by experience somehow exactly what death was?

And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die! (Gen.3:40)

The phrase in Gen 2:17 where it says "you shall surely die" is literally translated "and dying, you shall surly die." In other words the process of death would start and it would be certain that you would die.

My thought is that the Word of God created all that is, and He said "if you eat of it you will die."

That is a deep thought.
God created death.

Or Satan created death?
Or under God's sovereignty he allowed Satan to create something - death.

It reminds me of all that Satan did to Job, Job knew that it was God doing it.

I think I am dwelling on the negative side too much.

The Word of the Lord created death by this command, but death was not activated in the world until sin.

Satan is said to have the might of death.
God used that death to defeat Satan.

Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil, (Heb. 2;14)

We see thorns and thistles result from the curse of death - an obvious genetic difference from prior to the fall. So the question is, did God change our DNA at the curse, or did God build this DNA (for dealing with death in the world) into us from the beginning in preparation for our fall?

I do not know.
A good Christian brother who was a medical doctor once told me that he thought things like the common cold
was probably something useful in creation. It with many other things became a problem after the fall.

So the science of it I cannot touch. But it appears that the AWAKENING of the conscience occured in man.
This human conscience, this knowledge of good and evil, while not being able to save man, is at least a breaking system in man
as he by it knows he is moving AWAY from God.

His knowledge of good and evil cannot save him.
But it may help cause him to repent.

Perhaps God built us with all this "wisdom" of how our bodies would need to change in a cursed world and simply activated those genes at the curse. Perhaps this fits with your notion on the fabric of man (fabric could be DNA).

It is quite evident, I think, that the sovereign God transcending time foreknew and made provision for this tragedy in many ways.
He is WAY ahead of us all. He inhabits eternity.
All time is before Him in His foreknowledge.

If we are living with the "knowledge (wisdom) of death" or the genes God prepared in us for when death was our master, could be seen as the corruption. Or perhaps death - being a separation from God who is life - is the source of the corruption. At any rate, the corruption seems to have not emerged until after sin as a result of God's judgement.

Yes, we have to see death as seperation.

I'll have to go back and look at the passages on "knowledge of good and evil." If knowledge is "information" and DNA is an information system (which it is), then a possible interpretation of this passage is that our DNA changed when we gained the "knowledge of good and evil." Is the knowledge our knowledge? It is God's knowledge? Or is it just "information" added to who we are?

I teach that in light of the whole bible, the tree of life signifies God dispensing Himself into man.
In this sense - God did want man to be God. He did not want man to be the Godhead.
But He wants man to be the union, blending, and mingling of God and man.

The opposite tree brought about the blending of man (temporarily) with Satan.
The New Jerusalem in which a prevaling aspect is the tree of life points to God's victory through Christ -
the mingling of God with man.

May I submit a scripture song on the New Jerusalem.

 

[Gup20]

And He said, Who told you that you are naked? (Gen. 3:11a)

This was certainly a rhetorical question by God meant to cause Adam to think about the answer. God obviously knew what had happened. I've heard some say that man was "clothed in light" at creation and that light disappeared showing that he was naked... but I don't see that in scripture. I'm guessing that there was some new "instinct" which was associated with the DNA which was switched on when he sinned. This "knowledge" was what is meant by the knowledge of good and evil... since God said "the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

What do you think about that?
1.) Where are you?
2.) Who told you?

God knew where Adam was, and that Adam was naked, so these are again rhetorical questions. They were for Adam's revelation, not for God's.

Now do you believe that Satan sinned when he lied, twisting God's words?
When Satan slandered God, was that a sin?

I believe that Satan sinned.
So when the Bible says that through one man sin entered into the world, there must be some parameters of "the world."

Satan is not a man. Man had dominion over all that was in the world, so Satan - when he was in the world - was subject to man's dominion as well. Satan came as a snake - a creature of this world - because he was not of this world.

You said you think Adam did not know what death was about?
Do you think that Satan knew what death was?
If so, do you think Satan knew by experience somehow exactly what death was?

And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die! (Gen.3:40)

Yes, Satan knew. He was one of God's created beings in heaven.

That is a deep thought.
God created death.

Or Satan created death?
Or under God's sovereignty he allowed Satan to create something - death.

It reminds me of all that Satan did to Job, Job knew that it was God doing it.

I think I am dwelling on the negative side too much.

Yes, God created death. It was the punishment for sin, and God is responsible for punishing sin. Death is "separation from life" which is to say "separation from God" since God is life. The Bible calls death an "enemy." It was not part of the original state of creation (before sin), but that doesn't mean that it wasn't built into the original creation in case of the inevitable eventuality that man would sin. So, like DNA which has genes which only function is to turn other sets of genes on or off, God - who knew what would happen - designed it so that it could survive as long as it needed to without His sustaining power.

Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil, (Heb. 2;14)

I think the fear of death is the "cause" of the sin nature.

Heb 2:14-16 NASB95 - 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.​

It is our fear of death which enslaves us. Jesus said in John 8 that the man who sins is the slave to sin.

 

[ladodgers6]

Title says it all. Also, just to start off, I am a believer but I always have questions like these pop up in my head when I read the OT. I was reading the Psalms tonight and the Sons of Korah and David both talk about their delight in the Lord for his forgiveness of sins and how He makes those who love Him righteous. If God forgave the sins of those who love Him before sending His Son, and made people righteous, then why did we need Jesus in the first place?

He is the final sacrifice once and for all our sins.