What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

[Gup20]

I side with Paul in what he teaches.
Paul prohibits women having authority over men in the assembly, as the pastor teaches in the assembly.
He does not prohibit women teaching outside the assembly, as Priscilla taught Apollos outside the assembly.

Which is to say you side with the translators who took Paul’s words for “wife” & “husband” within passages where the context is a marriage relationship and used “man” & “woman” instead?

There were female teacher, preachers, & prophets in the Bible as well as judges.

This is unbelievable. . .

What part of the following do you not understand?

In neither the "scripture after scripture, after scripture" you posted, nor in the whole Bible (including Gal, Gen and Ro above, post #192), is there the word "adoption" in regard to Abraham. Scripture does not present our "adoption" by Abraham.

Previously and fully addressed with Biblical support. . .in posts #141, #146, #160, #186.

To repeat:
The importance of our adoption by God is that it gives us full rights as sons of God (Jn 1:12, Gal 4:5).
You are removing those rights when you remove our adoption by God (Gal 4:5-6).
WHAT rights? . . .for starters, the right to share in Christ's own personal inheritance! (Ro 8:17).

And therein is the magnitude of your contra-Biblical doctrine, which is why I call it "grievous" (post #165).

I’ve never said we are not also adopted by God. In fact I’ve repeatedly stated (with scriptural references for support) that it is both.

John 8:31-44 (NASB95) 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 “I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.” 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

In fact Jesus says here there are 3 qualifications of descendants: physical descendants of Abraham, Spiritual descendants of Abraham, and spiritual descendants of God. Jesus Himself indicates they can be both descendants of God & of Abraham simultaneously.

I don’t care if you use the term “adopted” or not. The concept is identical whether you say you qualify as a descendant of your father Abraham or you say you were adopted by Abraham, or you say you are a son or daughter of Abraham - either way you inherit the promises made to Abraham & to his descendants.

Genesis 15:4-5 (NASB95) 4 Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir.” 5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants (zera, seed) be.”

The context here is who stands to inherit this promise by being the heir. The seed is Jesus, but it was also Isaac, and the seed is also those with the same faith as Abraham, and also the physical descendants.

Genesis 15:13 (NASB95) God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants (zer, seed) will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.

Jesus wasnt that seed, nor were Christians. So you have multiple overlapping intended meanings. The word “seed” in Genesis 15 covers all 3 meanings: Jesus, Christians, Israelites. We’ll have to let God tell us where he means each of them.

Genesis 17:7 (NASB95) “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your seed after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your seed after you.

The first time seed is used here it means any descendants (Jews & Christians) the second time it means Jesus & probably Jews & Christians. Though one could argue Jesus was a generation, and he is the eternal one to whom an eternal covenant was made.

But the idea is clear:

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 4:11 (NASB95) and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Galatians 3:26 (NASB95) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 3:18 (NASB95) For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Qualifying as a descendant of Abraham (whatever word you use) has the purpose of qualifying for his promised righteousness.

The fact that Abraham had faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ without being spiritually born again or regenerated (uncircumcised in heart or flesh) means man can indeed believe the gospel without the Holy Spirit coming down from heaven to make us hear it & obey it.

Deuteronomy 30:11-12 (NASB95) 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
6 “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

 

[Clare73]

Which is to say you side with the translators

1 Co 14:33-35 makes clear the meaning of 1Ti 2:11-12, that it's about the assembly.

who took Paul’s words for “wife” & “husband” within passages where the context is a marriage relationship and used “man” & “woman” instead?

2) The word for woman (gune), means either married or unmarried:
wife (gune) - (Mt 1:20, 1 Co 7:3, 1 Ti 3:11)
woman (gune) - (Mt 11:11, Mt 14:21, Lk 4:6)

You are the subject of some exceedingly poor exegesis. . .which explains a lot.

There were female teacher, preachers, & prophets in the Bible as well as judges.

There were no female teachers in the synagogue nor the Christian assembly.

I’ve never said we are not also adopted by God. In fact I’ve repeatedly stated (with scriptural references for support) that it is both.

You have not stated that we are adopted by both God and Abraham.

Nor is there anywhere in Scripture a presentation of our "adoption" by Abraham.
That is all assumption. . .and now that I see your hermeneutic, I can see where all this nonsense comes from.

 

[Gup20]

1 Co 14:33-35 makes clear the meaning of 1Ti 2:11-12, that it's about the assembly.

2) The word for woman (gune), means either married or unmarried:
wife (gune) - (Mt 1:20, 1 Co 7:3, 1 Ti 3:11)
woman (gune) - (Mt 11:11, Mt 14:21, Lk 4:6)

1Ti 2:13, 15 NASB95 - 13 For it was Adam who was first created, [and] then Eve. ... 15 But [women] will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.​

Look at the context. The example given is a marriage relationship (Adam and Eve who were "one flesh"). Further it says the "woman" will be preserved through the bearing of children... well single women were not being encouraged to give birth, married wives were giving birth. The other examples of Paul making these mistranslated statements are even more clear.

​

1Co 14:34-35 NASB95 - 34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.​

The translators said "women" in the very same sentence where it translated the word for "man" (anēr) as "husbands." Obviously, gynē should be translated wife, not woman here just as the context demands anēr and gynē in 1Timothy be translated husband and wife.

You have not stated that we are adopted by both God and Abraham.

 

[Brightfame52]

Deu 30:1, 15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

​

Deu 30:6 NASB95 - 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.​

​

Deu 30:11-14 NASB95 - 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.​

Contrary to Calvin, God does not choose who the elect are. He commanded us to choose for ourselves. And contrary to Arminius, we do not have free will, but rather we have only 2 possible choices: choose life, or choose death. The command by God to choose for ourselves is violated by Calvinism.

The Apostle Paul quotes large portions of Deuteronomy 30 and tells us it is talking about the righteousness which comes by faith. Verse 6 which speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (or circumcision of the heart) is definitely a clue.

​

Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

​

So we have the choice between life and death. God set the choice before us and COMMANDED us to choose. There is no way around this choice. Even a dead and depraved man - even a man who isn't elect - can make the choice between life and death.

​

Gen 20:2-3, 7, 14, 17-18 NASB95 - 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." ... 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." ... 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. ... 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.] 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.​

Now you evading to something else, you contradict yourself, a sure indication of false teaching.

 

[Brightfame52]

I think you are asking the question based on a faulty assumption. Your question assumes that God chooses the individuals in the elect group... He does not. He chose the group itself, not whom is in the group. He leaves that choice to us. God made the promise to Abraham creating the chosen group - the descendants of Abraham - as a clause within the Abrahamic covenant, but He never put restrictions on whom could join, save one - they have to believe the same gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham believed.

He command us to choose between life and death and said that it was not too difficult for us to choose and the choice was not made by God in heaven (Deu 30).

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No

 

[Gup20]

Now you evading to something else, you contradict yourself, a sure indication of false teaching.

It’s not evasion. We were discussing who chooses - does God choose who will be saved or does man choose for himself. Deuteronomy 30 is the Bible’s greatest description of the choice God commands us to make. God chose the group, but each person as an individual is commanded by God to choose for themselves between life & death (whether they join the elect group).

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No

The question belies a misunderstanding. The choice of who will be in the elect group is a choice God has set before man & commanded him to choose.

Matthew 22:14 (NASB95) “For many are called, but few are chosen.”​

Jesus died for all who are called - for if He called them then He’s prepared to save them.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB95) “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Romans 8:16 (NASB95) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,​

I call heaven (The Spirit Himself) and earth (our spirit) to bare witness (testifies) regarding the choice set before us between life & death. The "calling" is a call to choose between life and death. The Chosen are those who chose life. Just as Abimielech did when God told him to choose between life and death, but though he chose life, he had to go through Abraham to receive life, we too if we choose life must go through the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith if we are to qualify as the elect.

​

Deu 7:6-9 NASB95 - 6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;​

A "people" is a group. God chose the group. Why are they chosen? BECAUSE God kept the oath He swore to Abraham and affirmed to Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[Clare73]

1Ti 2:13, 15 NASB95 - 13 For it was Adam who was first created, [and] then Eve. ... 15 But [women] will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.​

Look at the context. The example given is a marriage relationship (Adam and Eve who were "one flesh"). Further it says the "woman" will be preserved through the bearing of children... well single women were not being encouraged to give birth, married wives were giving birth.

1 Ti 2:12 - I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Paul is speaking of the assembly, "all the congregations of the saints," as in 1 Co 14:33-35.

The other examples of Paul making these mistranslated statements are even more clear.

There is no mistranslation of 1 Ti 2:11-12.

The role of the woman (both married and unmarried) in the assembly is based on the role of the woman in creation; i.e., created after man, created from man, created for man (Ge 2:18), to be his helpmeet, not his governor (Eph 5:22-24).

1Co 14:34-35 NASB95 - 34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

The Greek gune is both "woman" (all women) and "wife" (married women).
All women are to be under authority of the male and, therefore, to keep silent in the churches.
If the unmarried woman has a question, she must ask her authority; i.e., her father.

35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home;for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.​

The translators said "women" in the very same sentence where it translated the word for "man" (anēr) as "husbands."
Obviously, gynē should be translated wife, not woman here just as the context demands anēr and gynē in 1Timothy be translated husband and wife.

It matters not. . .the unmarried woman was under the authority of her father, whom she was to consult if she had questions in the assembly.

The role of the woman (married and unmarried) in the assembly is based on the role of the woman in creation; i.e., created after man, created from man, created for man (Ge 2:18), to be his helpmeet, not his governor (Eph 5:22-24).

Clare73 said: Being Abraham's descendant depends on being a son of God before you can inherit God's promise of an everlasting possession (Ro 4:16); i.e., eternal life .to Abraham, who is the father of God's people, the Church, of both OT and NT saints.

You are Abraham's descendant only in Christ (Gal 3:29),
you are in Christ only by being a son of God (Jn 1:12-13),
you are a son of God (Jn 1:12) only by rebirth and faith (Jn 1:13),

none of which has anything to do with an "adoption" by Abraham, and everything to do with being a descendant of Abraham in Christ (Gal 3:29).

For the umpteenth time: there is no "adoption" of the believer by Abraham anywhere in Scripture.
That is your own contra-Biblical notion.

 

[Brightfame52]

It’s not evasion. We were discussing who chooses - does God choose who will be saved or does man choose for himself. Deuteronomy 30 is the Bible’s greatest description of the choice God commands us to make. God chose the group, but each person as an individual is commanded by God to choose for themselves between life & death (whether they join the elect group).

The question belies a misunderstanding. The choice of who will be in the elect group is a choice God has set before man & commanded him to choose.

Matthew 22:14 (NASB95) “For many are called, but few are chosen.”​

Jesus died for all who are called - for if He called them then He’s prepared to save them.

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB95) “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Romans 8:16 (NASB95) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,​

I call heaven (The Spirit Himself) and earth (our spirit) to bare witness (testifies) regarding the choice set before us between life & death. The "calling" is a call to choose between life and death. The Chosen are those who chose life. Just as Abimielech did when God told him to choose between life and death, but though he chose life, he had to go through Abraham to receive life, we too if we choose life must go through the Abrahamic covenant of righteousness by faith if we are to qualify as the elect.

​

Deu 7:6-9 NASB95 - 6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;​

A "people" is a group. God chose the group. Why are they chosen? BECAUSE God kept the oath He swore to Abraham and affirmed to Isaac, and Jacob.

One more time:

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No

 

[Gup20]

One more time:

Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No

Yes, Jesus’ sacrifice is available to some who will ultimately choose death. Many are commanded to make the choice, and Jesus’ sacrifice is available to many who will choose to reject it.

Do you acknowledge that there are some who are called who will not be chosen (Matt 22:14)? Do you acknowledge that God does not choose individuals, but has chosen a specific people group - the descendants according to the Abrahamic covenant? Do you acknowledge that the reason the elect are chosen is because of God’s promise to Abraham? Do you acknowledge that those with faith in Jesus Christ are members of the group “the descendants of Abraham?”

Do you acknowledge the synergistic nature of salvation according to Deu 30:19 & Romans 8:15?

Consider: if I tell my child “You may have pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast, but choose the oatmeal,” regardless of which they choose, my will is done. The child does not have free will, for they may not choose steak & eggs, but my child absolutely has a choice, and no matter which they choose, I’m still sovereign over breakfast.

Similarly, God has set the choice between life & death before man & commanded him to choose. Because God gave the choice He reigns no matter which choice we make. This doesn’t mean He made the choice for us, for God commanded us to make the choice for ourselves. But those who trust God & choose the life He told them was the best choice will be part of the elect.

Matthew 22:14 (NASB95) “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB95) “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants (zera, singular, or literally seed).

What affect does the choice have? Fulfilling Abraham’s promise:

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB95) “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants (zera, seed), to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

The choice God commands us to make between life & death is the choice whether or not to be filled with righteousness & the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB95) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[Gup20]

For the umpteenth time: there is no "adoption" of the believer by Abraham anywhere in Scripture.
That is your own contra-Biblical notion.

This is so easily countered:

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Romans 4:11 (NASB95) and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Romans 4:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

You were not conceived physically by Abraham, so if he is your father (it doesn’t say “ancestor” or “relative” but father) then you must be adopted in some legal way so that you may inherit the promises made to Abraham.

John 8:39-40 (NASB95) 39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

What did Abraham do? He believed the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:14-18 (NASB95) 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

The inheritance is in terms of “human relations” and not only “spiritual seed.” Once again adoption is referred to collectively as “sons of God” AND as “sons of Abraham.”

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
Galatians 3:26 (NASB95) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 6:13-20 (NASB95) 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU.” 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Even a child can see & understand this, so your unwillingness is not because it isn’t in the text, but because you have an a priori commitment to a system of theology which denies the plain reading of the text.

Conclusion:
The text says those who have faith in Jesus Christ are considered the sons of Abraham. Do you deny this is what the text says?

 

[Clare73]

This is so easily countered:

Galatians 3:7 (NASB95) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Agreed. . .

What part of "being a son does not necessarily mean you are adopted" do you not understand?

 

[Gup20]

Agreed. . .

What part of "being a son does not necessarily mean you are adopted" do you not understand?

The text says those who have faith in Jesus Christ are considered the sons of Abraham. Do you deny this is what the text says?

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, Jesus’ sacrifice is available to some who will ultimately choose death. Many are commanded to make the choice, and Jesus’ sacrifice is available to many who will choose to reject it.

Do you acknowledge that there are some who are called who will not be chosen (Matt 22:14)? Do you acknowledge that God does not choose individuals, but has chosen a specific people group - the descendants according to the Abrahamic covenant? Do you acknowledge that the reason the elect are chosen is because of God’s promise to Abraham? Do you acknowledge that those with faith in Jesus Christ are members of the group “the descendants of Abraham?”

Do you acknowledge the synergistic nature of salvation according to Deu 30:19 & Romans 8:15?

Consider: if I tell my child “You may have pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast, but choose the oatmeal,” regardless of which they choose, my will is done. The child does not have free will, for they may not choose steak & eggs, but my child absolutely has a choice, and no matter which they choose, I’m still sovereign over breakfast.

Similarly, God has set the choice between life & death before man & commanded him to choose. Because God gave the choice He reigns no matter which choice we make. This doesn’t mean He made the choice for us, for God commanded us to make the choice for ourselves. But those who trust God & choose the life He told them was the best choice will be part of the elect.

Matthew 22:14 (NASB95) “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB95) “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants (zera, singular, or literally seed).

What affect does the choice have? Fulfilling Abraham’s promise:

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB95) “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants (zera, seed), to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

The choice God commands us to make between life & death is the choice whether or not to be filled with righteousness & the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:15-17 (NASB95) 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

So by saying yes you contradict yourself, because all are not of the seed of Abraham, and you condition salvation on man, and you deny that Jesus death alone, in and of itself, effected, caused, brought about the Salvation of those He died for.

 

[Brightfame52]

The text says those who have faith in Jesus Christ are considered the sons of Abraham. Do you deny this is what the text says?

Arent they the seed or sons of Abraham before they have Faith in Christ ?

 

[Gup20]

Agreed. . .

What part of "being a son does not necessarily mean you are adopted" do you not understand?

From Marriam Webster's dictionary:

ADOPT:
: to take (someone or something) by choice into a relationship
They adopted Canada as their home.

: such as
a
: to take (a child born to other parents) voluntarily as one's own child especially in compliance with formal legal procedures

 

[Clare73]

The text says those who have faith in Jesus Christ are considered the sons of Abraham.

The text does not say "considered," the text says that in Christ they are descendants of Abraham (Gal 3:29), because Christ is a descendant of Abraham.

Do you deny this is what the text says?

I deny that being a son of Abraham necessarily means one is adopted by Abraham.

From Marriam Webster's dictionary:

ADOPT:
: to take (someone or something) by choice into a relationship

Abraham had nothing to do with those in Christ being his descendants (Gal 3:29) 2,000 years after is death.

What part of "being a son does not necessarily mean you are adopted" do you not understand?

 

[Gup20]

So by saying yes you contradict yourself, because all are not of the seed of Abraham, and you condition salvation on man, and you deny that Jesus death alone, in and of itself, effected, caused, brought about the Salvation of those He died for.

Salvation is not conditional on man... that part is secured. All of the elect will be saved. It is done. Qualifying as a descendant of Abraham and therefore being in the group known as "the elect" is based on man's choice - a choice God commanded man to make.

Arent they the seed or sons of Abraham before they have Faith in Christ ?

No, faith is what qualifies them as the seed or sons of Abraham.

​

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

​

Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

The indwelling comes AFTER you believe, not before.

​

Gal 3:8 NASB95 - 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."​

The justification takes place in the future (from Abraham), it did not take place in the past or before Abraham.

 

[Gup20]

Abraham had nothing to do with our being his descendant.

This is like saying Moses had nothing to do with The Law. While I agree that both the Abrahamic covenant and The Law of Moses were from God, they came through human beings and are promises TO human beings and affect more than just the original human recipients of their respective covenants.

Within the Abrahamic covenant exists a legal mechanism for passing the promises given to him on to his offspring. We legally qualify for the legal covenant given to Abraham when we have the same unregenerate faith in Jesus Christ which he had. Becoming a child of someone other than your biological parents especially through a legal procedure is the definition of adopt... but if you don't care to use that term that's your choice. If you don't wish to qualify for Abraham's covenant, that's your choice too, but I'd advise against it.

​

Neh 9:7-8 NASB95 - 7 "You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham. 8 "You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give [him] the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite To give [it] to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.​

God "found" Abraham's heart faithful, He didn't cause it to be faithful. This was 2,000 years before the Holy Spirit would be given to indwell man (permanently) and regenerate him. He was circumcised (in flesh, but never in heart) AFTER he believed the gospel. He was credited with righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised. Now that the promise of the Holy Spirit has been fulfilled, and He can indwell the hearts of the faithful, the Holy Spirit still waits until AFTER a person believes the gospel before he comes in and regenerates them.

​

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

​

Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

​

Rom 4:11 NASB95 - 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,​

​

Gal 3:14 NASB95 - 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.​

​

Act 2:33 NASB95 - 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.​

​

 

[Clare73]

This is like saying Moses had nothing to do with The Law.

This does not show that anyone was "adopted" by Abraham.

What part of "being a son does not necessarily mean you are adopted" do you not understand?

While I agree that both the Abrahamic covenant and The Law of Moses were from God, they came through human beings and are promises TO human beings and affect more than just the original human recipients of their respective covenants.

All the promises to Abraham and his seed are to Abraham and Christ only (Gal 3:16).

Within the Abrahamic covenant exists a legal mechanism for passing the promises given to him on to his offspring.

That is an extra-Biblical invention of your own fancy, nowhere stated in Scripture.

We legally qualify for the legal covenant given to Abraham when we have the same unregenerate faith in Jesus Christ

There is no such thing in all of Scripture as unregenerate (not of the Holy Spirit) faith.
Everywhere in Scripture, faith is necessarily of the Holy Spirit.

"The man without the Holy Spirit cannot accept the things that come from God, for he cannot understand them, they are foolishness to him, because they are spiritually (of the Holy Spirit) discerned," (1 Co 2:14) and he wants no part of foolishness.

which he had. Becoming a child of someone other than your biological parents especially through a legal procedure is the definition of adopt...

More extra-Biblical invention of your own fancy, nowhere presented in Scripture.

Christ is a descendant of Abraham by generation, not by "legal procedure."
Our being in Christ (and the seed promised to Christ, Gal 3:16, Ge 15:5) makes us also descendants of Abraham.

but if you don't care to use that term that's your choice. If you don't wish to qualify for Abraham's covenant, that's your choice too, but I'd advise against it.

Abraham's covenant, the promises (seed and everlasting possession) of which were made only to him and Christ, is fulfilled, in Christ.
He is the seed and the everlasting possession (eternal life, Jn 17:2), promised in Ge 15:5, Ge 15:9-21, Ge 17:8.

This does not show that anyone was "adopted" by Abraham.

 

[Brightfame52]

Salvation is not conditional on man... that part is secured. All of the elect will be saved. It is done. Qualifying as a descendant of Abraham and therefore being in the group known as "the elect" is based on man's choice - a choice God commanded man to make.


No, faith is what qualifies them as the seed or sons of Abraham.

​

Eph 1:13-14 NASB95 - 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.​

​

Act 11:16-17 NASB95 - 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

The indwelling comes AFTER you believe, not before.

​

Gal 3:8 NASB95 - 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."​

The justification takes place in the future (from Abraham), it did not take place in the past or before Abraham.

Again you condition salvation on man. and a person is of the seed of Abraham before they believe. Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.