What was Jesus’ purpose if sins were forgiven before His Incarnation?

[Gup20]

Scripture doesn't say all that, though.

Go up above to post #169. That is where I laid out the scriptures. For example, I say ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and the wicked alike. Then you can read the scripture I posted:

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

I said that all of creation was judged with death for Adam's one transgression, but Jesus' free gift of righteousness covers many transgressions, so it will apply in the individual judgements, not Adam's corporate judgement:

Romans 5:16 (NASB95) The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

I said that death is abolished by Christ's appearing, not by his death and resurrection:

2 Timothy 1:1010 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Do you have something specific in mind when you say "the scripture doesn't say all that?"

 

[Clare73]

Scripture doesn't say all that, though.

Somewhat "creative". . .

 

[Brightfame52]

Actually, I meant exactly what I said. If you read it carefully, you will note that it is not "ultimate reconciliation." As a result of Christ's appearing, ALL will be resurrected, the righteous and wicked alike. This is because a SINGLE RIGHTEOUS PERSON makes God's universal, corporate judgement of Adam unjust. Until Christ appeared, God's corporate judgement was just because all had sinned, and none were righteous. But because a single righteous man appeared, God has to Abolish Adam's corporate judgement (repeal it) and do individual judgements in its place. As soon as Adam's judgement is repealed, it necessitates the resurrection of everyone who died under that judgement, and viola - universal resurrection. But not so fast - that doesn't mean all are reconciled to God - for then they are judged as individuals and for some there will be a second death and eternal torment and contempt in the lake of fire.

In the second judgement - The Great White Throne judgement - Christ's righteousness will be applied individually to those who believed in Christ. Christ's righteousness is not applied to Adam's death judgement (the death we all experience now) because it will at some point be abolished.

Those who Christ died for are reconciled to God while enemies/unbelievers, and the same shall be saved by His Life Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now all for whom Christ died are reconciled and saved ! So Christs death effects ultimate reconciliation !

 

[Brightfame52]

rdkirk

I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection.

So you believe people Christ died for can be still lost in their sins in unbelief ? Is that a fair conclusion ?

 

[Gup20]

rdkirk



So you believe people Christ died for can be still lost in their sins in unbelief ? Is that a fair conclusion ?

No, I don’t think that is accurate. My perspective resolves this. Christ died for ALL the elect or chosen. All of the elect will be saved. The elect are specifically the descendants of Abraham (as a group, not the individuals). Anyone, as an individual may choose to join the group if they wish, it is open to all, by choosing to have the same, unregenerate faith which Abraham had.

Righteousness through faith is ONLY for the descendants of Abraham, or those who qualify under the Abrahamic covenant.

 

[Clare73]

No, I don’t think that is accurate. My perspective resolves this. Christ died for ALL the elect or chosen. All of the elect will be saved. The elect are specifically the descendants of Abraham (as a group, not the individuals). Anyone, as an individual may choose to join the group if they wish, it is open to all, by choosing to have the same, unregenerate faith which Abraham had.

Righteousness through faith is ONLY for the descendants of Abraham, or those who qualify under the Abrahamic covenant.

View attachment 330894

1) The attachment above, being contra-Biblical, is correctly labeled as "my perspective," for there is no promise to Abraham of righteousness, the promise to Abraham is of seed (Ge 15:5) and by which faith in the promised seed (Ge 15:5: Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) righteousness was imputed (credited, applied) to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3)--not promised. . .just as righteousness is imputed by faith in the NT (Ro 4:1-11).

Righteousness was imputed (credited, applied) to Abraham, not promised.

2) Likewise contra-Biblical is NT "adoption" by Abraham.
Nowhere in Scripture is it presented that in the NT we are "adopted" by Abraham.
That is arrived at by misrepresentation of Gal 4:4-7 (see posts #141, #146, #160).

The importance of our adoption by God is that it gives us full rights as sons (Jn 1:12, Gal 4:5).
You are removing those rights when you remove our adoption by God (Gal 4:5-6).
WHAT rights? . . .for starters, the right to share in Christ's own personal inheritance! (Ro 8:17).

And therein is the magnitude of your contra-Biblical doctrine, which is why I call it "grievous" (post #165).

We are not adopted by Abraham (nowhere found in Scripture), we are descendants of Abraham by being in Christ (Gal 3:29), who is a descendant of Abraham and, thereby, we inherit the promises to Abraham, which were all made to Christ alone (Gal 3:16), locking up all the promises in Christ for our sake.

Your error is based in confusion of promise of God (Ge 15:5, seed) and imputation by faith (Ge 15:6, righteousness),
driven by what I suspect is a contra-NT eschatology.

 

[Brightfame52]

No, I don’t think that is accurate. My perspective resolves this. Christ died for ALL the elect or chosen. All of the elect will be saved. The elect are specifically the descendants of Abraham (as a group, not the individuals). Anyone, as an individual may choose to join the group if they wish, it is open to all, by choosing to have the same, unregenerate faith which Abraham had.

Righteousness through faith is ONLY for the descendants of Abraham, or those who qualify under the Abrahamic covenant.

View attachment 330894

So you believe people who Christ didnt die for can be saved if they want to ?

 

[Brightfame52]

gup20

Anyone, as an individual may choose to join the group if they wish, it is open to all, by choosing to have the same, unregenerate faith which Abraham had.

Thats salvation conditioned on man, what man does, thats works and diametrically opposed to salvation by Grace through Faith.

 

[Gup20]

1) The attachment above, being contra-Biblical, is correctly labeled as "my perspective," for there is no promise to Abraham of righteousness, the promise to Abraham is of seed (Ge 15:5) and by which faith in the promised seed (Ge 15:5: Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) righteousness was imputed (credited, applied) to Abraham (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:3)--not promised. . .just as righteousness is imputed by faith in the NT (Ro 4:1-11).

Righteousness was imputed (credited, applied) to Abraham, not promised.

You don’t see it because you don’t want to see, not because it isn’t plainly there. You are willingly ignoring the plain truth.

Romans 4:13 (NASB95)
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The promise to Abraham that he would be heir of the world was through the righteousness of faith. This means to inherit the world, you must inherit righteousness. For if the would is contained in the righteousness, how can you inherit the world without inheriting righteousness which it comes through?

Galatians 3:14 (NASB95)
in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The blessing of Abraham is the promise of Ezekiel 36:

Ezekiel 36:24-28 (NASB95) 24 “For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 “You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Notice how verse 24 and 28 reference the Abrahamic covenant? It starts with being cleansed or made righteous and ends with being given the Holy Spirit.

Why was righteousness credited to Abraham? So that it might be credited to his heirs.

Romans 4:11 (NASB95) and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Galatians 3:29 (NASB95)
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB95) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2) Likewise contra-Biblical is NT "adoption" by Abraham.
Nowhere in Scripture is it presented that in the NT we are "adopted" by Abraham.

Galatians 3:6-7 (NASB95) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Romans 4:11-13 (NASB95) 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

 

[Gup20]

gup20



Thats salvation conditioned on man, what man does, thats works and diametrically opposed to salvation by Grace through Faith.

No, Salvation is not conditioned on man, but on the promise of God to Abraham. Human adoption into the group “the descendants of Abraham” is all that is conditioned on man.

Romans 4:16-17 (NASB95) 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

By grace through faith is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant.

Works (works of the law) is the Mosaic covenant (the law of Moses). When it says it is not by works, but by faith, it is saying it is by the Abrahamic covenant, not the Mosaic covenant.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB95) nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 4:21-31 (NASB95) 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, “REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.” 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

 

[Clare73]

You don’t see it because you don’t want to see, not because it isn’t plainly there. You are willingly ignoring the plain truth.
Romans 4:13 (NASB95)
For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
The promise to Abraham that he would be heir of the world was through the righteousness of faith. This means to inherit the world, you must inherit righteousness.

Previously addressed. . .in posts #141, #146, #160, #186, which Biblical arguments you have yet to deal with other than by personal assertion and misrepresentation of Scripture.

Ro 4:13 means no such thing. . .is it your eschatology that is blinding you?

It means you must receive righteousness the same way Abraham did, not by inheritance,
but by faith in (Ge 15:6) the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

 

[Gup20]

That is arrived at by misrepresentation of Gal 4:4-7 (see posts #141, #146, #160).

I literally posted scripture, after scripture, after scripture in support of my claim, Her conclusion was that I presented no Biblical demonstration of my claim. Clare responded to only 1 of those scriptures and made wildly inaccurate claim that the only context was being an heir of God... which anyone can see is clearly false (i.e. descendants of Abraham, sons of Abraham, heirs of the promise to Abraham, etc etc etc). None of her other comments had any Biblical support or references whatsoever.

 

[Gup20]

Previously addressed. . .in posts #141, #146, #160, #186, which Biblical arguments you have yet to deal with other than by personal assertion and misrepresentation of Scripture.

Ro 4:13 means no such thing. . .is it your eschatology that is blinding you?

It means you must receive righteousness the same way Abraham did, not by inheritance,
but by faith in (Ge 15:6) the promise (Ge 15:5, seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

I don't hold fast to any specific eschatology.

What are your thoughts on 1Ti 2:11-12? Do you side with Calvin on this holding that women should not teach or instruct men, but should remain silent? Do you break with the vast majority of Calvinists and believe in female pastors?

 

[Gup20]

So you believe people who Christ didnt die for can be saved if they want to ?

No, they have to join the elect group if they want to be saved. If they join the elect group, then Jesus did die for them because He died for the descendants of Abraham. The flaw in your logic is God chose a GROUP not the individuals in the group. The group is "the descendants of Abraham."

​

Deu 7:6-9 NASB95 - 6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 "Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;​

​

Heb 6:12-20 NASB95 - 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU." 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For men swear by one greater [than themselves,] and with them an oath [given] as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a [hope] both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.​

So the "chosen" are those who inherit the oath (promise) God made to Abraham.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham." Calvin just didn't realize that all Christians become qualified as the "offspring of Abraham" when they believe the same gospel which Abraham believed 2,000 years before the Holy Spirit would be given to indwell men's hearts.

 

[Brightfame52]

gup20

No, Salvation is not conditioned on man,

Thats what you just said, you dont know what you believe. This is what you just posted:

Anyone, as an individual may choose to join the group if they wish, it is open to all, by choosing to have the same, unregenerate faith which Abraham had.

 

[Brightfame52]

gup20

No, they have to join the elect group if they want to be saved. If they join the elect group, then Jesus did die for them because He died for the descendants of Abraham

You are contradicting your self. Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No

 

[Gup20]

gup20



Thats what you just said, you dont know what you believe. This is what you just posted:

Deu 30:1, 15, 19 NASB95 - 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Deu 30:6 NASB95 - 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deu 30:11-14 NASB95 - 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.​

Contrary to Calvin, God does not choose who the elect are. He commanded us to choose for ourselves. And contrary to Arminius, we do not have free will, but rather we have only 2 possible choices: choose life, or choose death. The command by God to choose for ourselves is violated by Calvinism.

The Apostle Paul quotes large portions of Deuteronomy 30 and tells us it is talking about the righteousness which comes by faith. Verse 6 which speaks of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (or circumcision of the heart) is definitely a clue.

​

Rom 10:5-11 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

​

So we have the choice between life and death. God set the choice before us and COMMANDED us to choose. There is no way around this choice. Even a dead and depraved man - even a man who isn't elect - can make the choice between life and death.

​

Gen 20:2-3, 7, 14, 17-18 NASB95 - 2 Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister." So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream of the night, and said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is married." ... 7 "Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore [her,] know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." ... 14 Abimelech then took sheep and oxen and male and female servants, and gave them to Abraham, and restored his wife Sarah to him. ... 17 Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maids, so that they bore [children.] 18 For the LORD had closed fast all the wombs of the household of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham's wife.​

 

[Gup20]

gup20



You are contradicting your self. Do you believe Jesus died for people who are never saved. never become believers ? Yes or No

I think you are asking the question based on a faulty assumption. Your question assumes that God chooses the individuals in the elect group... He does not. He chose the group itself, not whom is in the group. He leaves that choice to us. God made the promise to Abraham creating the chosen group - the descendants of Abraham - as a clause within the Abrahamic covenant, but He never put restrictions on whom could join, save one - they have to believe the same gospel of Jesus Christ which Abraham believed.

He command us to choose between life and death and said that it was not too difficult for us to choose and the choice was not made by God in heaven (Deu 30).

 

[Clare73]

View attachment 330935

I literally posted scripture, after scripture, after scripture in support of my claim, Her conclusion was that I presented no Biblical demonstration of my claim. Clare responded to only 1 of those scriptures and made wildly inaccurate claim that the only context was being an heir of God... which anyone can see is clearly false (i.e. descendants of Abraham, sons of Abraham, heirs of the promise to Abraham, etc etc etc).

This is unbelievable. . .

What part of the following do you not understand?

In neither the "scripture after scripture, after scripture" you posted, nor in the whole Bible (including Gal, Gen and Ro above, post #192), is there the word "adoption" in regard to Abraham.

Scripture does not present our "adoption" by Abraham. That is a false assumption on your part.
Scripture presents our adoption by God, giving us full rights as sons (Jn 1:12, Gal 4:5) and

Scripture presents our "descendency" from Abraham in Christ, guaranteeing us the promises to Abraham (Gal 3:29) and to Christ only (Gal 3:16); i.e., seed and an everlasting possession/inheritance (Ge 15:5, Ge 17:8).

None of her other comments had any Biblical support or references whatsoever.

Previously and fully addressed with Biblical support. . .in posts #141, #146, #160, #186, which you have yet to Biblically and specifically address.

To repeat:
The importance of our adoption by God is that it gives us full rights as sons of God (Jn 1:12, Gal 4:5).
You are removing those rights when you remove our adoption by God (Gal 4:5-6).
WHAT rights? . . .for starters, the right to share in Christ's own personal inheritance! (Ro 8:17).

And therein is the magnitude of your contra-Biblical doctrine, which is why I call it "grievous" (post #165).

 

[Clare73]

I don't hold fast to any specific eschatology.

What are your thoughts on 1Ti 2:11-12? Do you side with Calvin on this holding that women should not teach or instruct men, but should remain silent? Do you break with the vast majority of Calvinists and believe in female pastors?

I side with Paul in what he teaches.
Paul prohibits women having authority over men in the assembly, as the pastor teaches in the assembly.
He does not prohibit women teaching outside the assembly, as Priscilla taught Apollos outside the assembly.