What Value has Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[BBAS 64]

He is not unwilling or unable to do anything, and he will save all who believe. Hos desire is for a volitional relationship with his creation. I think it was CS Lewis that said something to the effect that "in the end we will either say to God, 'thy will be done' or God will say to us, 'thy will be done'. God, in his sovereignty, allows man to choose to reject or believe God's promises. This is evident, in part, by the commands to repent and believe always being in the active voice. John 3:16 doesn't say "that whoever is given belief" but whoever believes.

Doug

Good Day, Doug

I like CS Lewis not that I agree with everything he says. I would strongly remind Him that God's purposes will always stand.

WE agree!

Man does choose seeing he hates light in and of Himself... he will never ever choose it.
Man heart is desperately wicked and His mind is at enmity with God, he is unable to follow God's law and that is the contributing factor to his free choice.

The mood of the verb is unimportant in this case. As no-one denies men, do indeed believe and repent.

The question you really have to answer is why do some believe and some do not what quality do they have? 2 people hear the same Gospel one believes and the other does not why?

In order to exercise belief it first must be granted...

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Can one believe if it is not Granted... if so how?


In Him,

Bill

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can one believe if it is not Granted... if so how?
In Him,

Bill

Of course God has granted all to believe. That doesn't mean that all do, though.

Calvinists need to get out of their puppet/robot theological grid.

Christ died for everyone so that those who DO believe will be saved.

Calvinism has zero verses about a limited type of atonement, and the Bible has many verses that plainly say that Christ died for all. (everyone)

People don't believe because they choose not to. Or refuse to to. Or are simply unwilling.

 

[Butch5]

I've gotten tired of this back and forth. The epistle was written to believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, both Jewish and Gentile.

Your arguments are a waste of time and effort. All of the epistles were written to Christians, regardless of ethnicity.

It was. In it he addresses the Jewish believers at one point and the Gentile believers at another. Who is being addressed makes all the difference in the world as to how we understand it.

My argument isn't a waste of time. Whole theological systems have been built on applying passages of Scripture wrongly and to the wrong people. You yourself posted Ephesian 1:4 and applied it to Christians when its speaking about the Jews. You may understand what he's writing, but your application is incorrect

 

[FreeGrace2]

It was. In it he addresses the Jewish believers at one point and the Gentile believers at another. Who is being addressed makes all the difference in the world as to how we understand it.

You keep missing the point. The NT is for believers. All of it. Paul didn't admonish Jewish believers any differently than he admonished Gentile believers.

My argument isn't a waste of time. Whole theological systems have been built on applying passages of Scripture wrongly and to the wrong people.

Here is a fair question, then:

Did Paul teach Jews and Gentiles differently about how to be saved, or how to grow up spiritually?

You yourself posted Ephesian 1:4 and applied it to Christians when its speaking about the Jews.

That is preposterous.

Eph 1-
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Where do you get this notion that the red words refer to Jews ONLY??

On to ch 2-
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—
12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Pretty clear he is addressing Gentiles. So, where did Paul specifically address Jews?

You may understand what he's writing, but your application is incorrect

I hope you answer my question then about the different message Paul gave to Jews than to Gentiles.

 

[TibiasDad]

Good Day, Doug

I like CS Lewis not that I agree with everything he says. I would strongly remind Him that God's purposes will always stand.

WE agree!

Man does choose seeing he hates light in and of Himself... he will never ever choose it.
Man heart is desperately wicked and His mind is at enmity with God, he is unable to follow God's law and that is the contributing factor to his free choice.

The mood of the verb is unimportant in this case. As no-one denies men, do indeed believe and repent.

The question you really have to answer is why do some believe and some do not what quality do they have? 2 people hear the same Gospel one believes and the other does not why?

In order to exercise belief it first must be granted...

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

Can one believe if it is not Granted... if so how?


In Him,

Bill

When God chose to not destroy man, but rather to save mankind (Gen 3:15) he was granting us the potential for belief and repentance. His very presence is all that is needed to illuminate the heart of man. He is the light that shines on every man! (John 1:9)

Doug

 

[5thKingdom]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This is what is truly sad: your so-called "5 kingdoms".

JESUS specifically NAMED four of the five "Kingdoms of Heaven"
on earth. You do not have to accept that or understand that reality
but that does not change the WORDS of CHRIST.


You can PRETEND that I put those words in the Bible...
but that only shows how little you understand (and respect)
Scripture.


(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13 in 8 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 5, 7,8,19 and others]


The ONLY "Kingdom of Heaven" not specifically NAMED
by Jesus is the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" containing
all the saints from Adam to Noah.


Please NOTICE the GOSPEL of each of the "Kingdoms of Heaven"
was DIFFERENT than the Gospel from the preceding Kingdom..
That fact alone destroys your pretending.


Not to mention that HISTORY supports Christ's Words and
contradicts your denial of Christ's Words. I wonder how it feels
to DENY Historical facts? History is reality... whether you like it
or not.


You should not make the common mistakes of:
(1) assuming Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what you understand
(2) pretending that denying Biblical Truth somehow negates it


BTW... this is just ONE of the Biblical mysteries the Bible PROMISED
that (only) the Last Saints "shall understand" [Dan 12:8-10] and
Jesus PROMISED (only) the Last Saints "shall see all these things".
And God PROMISED (only) the Last Saints shall PREACH these
Biblical mysteries.


So... we know you DENY these Biblical and Historical realities...
exactly as the Bible PROMISED you would. So your denial and
PRETENDING these "Kingdoms of Heaven" are MY WORDS and
not the WORDS OF CHRIST only reflects on your ignorance of
Biblical Truth and the fulfillment of prophecy. Your words negate NOTHING... no matter how HARD you try to pretend otherwise.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

When God chose to not destroy man, but rather to save mankind (Gen 3:15) he was granting us the potential for belief and repentance.
Doug

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Perhaps you can point out where the effect of original sin was
negated in the passage you offered?


And WHY do you assume the "seed" of Satan has potential for
belief and repentance?


Jim

 

[Butch5]

You keep missing the point. The NT is for believers. All of it. Paul didn't admonish Jewish believers any differently than he admonished Gentile believers.

The whole Bible is for believers. Who said anything about admonishing?

Here is a fair question, then:

Did Paul teach Jews and Gentiles differently about how to be saved, or how to grow up spiritually?

I didn't say anything about being saved. If you read the book you'll see. In chapters 3 and 4 he explains to the Jewish believers that the Law won't save them. In Chapters 8-10 he encourages them and explains how God's promises haven't failed. When he addresses the Gentiles he explains to them how Israel has been blinded in part and how they have been grafted into Israel.

That is preposterous.

Eph 1-
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

Where do you get this notion that the red words refer to Jews ONLY??

On to ch 2-
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—
12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Pretty clear he is addressing Gentiles. So, where did Paul specifically address Jews?

I didn't say Paul was addressing the Jews, in that passage. He opens his letter to the whole church as always. However, in verse three he begins what is known as a Hebraism. It's praise to God. In this case it's a praise to God for what He has done for Israel. Verses 3-12 are a Hebraism, a praise for what God has done for Israel. All of the verbs in this passage are past tense except one. Note also that he uses first and second person personal plural pronouns, us, we, our, and you, your. The use of first and second person pronouns indicates two groups. One group is, us, we, our, and the other group is, you, your. Paul includes himself in the first group, the, us, we, our, group. The other group is the Ephesian believers. Things Paul states in verses 3-12 are things God has done for Israel. In verse 12 he lets us know exactly who he is referring to.

to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:
(Eph. 1:12 ASV)

It was the Jews who had, "before hoped" in Christ. Considering verse 4, It was the Jews who were chosen to be holy and blameless before Him.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the (Deut. 7:6 KJV)

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. (Deut. 14:2 KJV)

In verse 5 Paul writes,

5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph. 1:1 ASV)

Here Paul writes of the adoption as sons. Who does the adoption pertain to? The Jews. Paul explains in Romans 9.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1 (Rom. 9:1-4 KJV)

The adoption pertains to Israel. That's what Paul is discussing in Ephesians 1. If you want a more in depth analysis I've written one here, Ephesians 1.

If you'd like a breakdown of the Greek it can be found here, Ephesians 1:3-14

This is why this is so important. Ephesians 1:4 is probably the single biggest verse used in the Predestination debates. One side claims God chose people to believe before the foundation of the world. The other side says God chose, before the foundation of the world, those who would believe. This is a huge debate in Christianity and both sides of the debate are wrong. The passage is speaking of Israel. And, it's in the past tense. So, this is why my argument isn't a waste of time and why it's actually critical. Because so many don't properly break down the text, they wind up with theologies that don't fit with the Scriptures. The fact that there are all of these different beliefs is a sure sign that a lot of people have incorrect beliefs about what the Bible teaches.

Another problem is that many today have basically taken Israel out of the equation and replaced it with the church. That's a huge mistake. Paul said that salvation is to the Jew first and then the Gentile. Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews. Paul also said,

yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith. (Rom. 3:30 YLT)

Notice that the Gentiles are declare righteous through the faith. It's the faith of the Jews which is the New Covenant.

Remember too, that the New Covenant is with Israel.

31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (Jer. 31:1 KJV)

The New Covenant is with Israel. So, if one wants to be saved and enter the New Covenant they need to become a Jew. Not a physical Jew but rather one through Christ. As Paul told the Gentiles, they were grafted into Israel through faith. He also told the Galatians that through Christ they are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. 28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise. (Gal. 3:1 KJV)

I hope you answer my question then about the different message Paul gave to Jews than to Gentiles.

I explained it above.

 

[Butch5]

When God chose to not destroy man, but rather to save mankind (Gen 3:15) he was granting us the potential for belief and repentance. His very presence is all that is needed to illuminate the heart of man. He is the light that shines on every man! (John 1:9)

Doug

Agreed!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This is what is truly sad: your so-called "5 kingdoms".

JESUS specifically NAMED four of the five "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth. You do not have to accept that or understand that reality but that does not change the WORDS of CHRIST.

As I have said, we have already been though all this stuff, and you still haven't proven your claims. Jesus NEVER gave any of the so-called kingdoms specific names.

You can PRETEND that I put those words in the Bible...

No, you are the pretender.

(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
(3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13 in 8 verses]
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 5, 7,8,19 and others]

Yes, Jesus mentioned "kingdom of heaven" a number of times.

What He DIDN'T add were the words "Jewiah", "Christian", "Great Trib" "eternal" to any of the times He mentioned "kingdom of heaven".

Here is the truth, whether your eyes and ears or opened or closed.

The Kingdom of Heaven refers to everything that God created. God created all of the universe, and whatever there is beyond the known universe. It's ALL His. His kingdom.

God is King over everything. There is only one Kingdom of Heaven. And it's God's kingdom.

The ONLY "Kingdom of Heaven" not specifically NAMED
by Jesus is the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" containing
all the saints from Adam to Noah.

Your claim here is just laughable. Jesus NEVER put any of the "names" before "kingdom of heaven" like you have.

You have ADDED unbiblical words to Scripture. Please cease.

Please NOTICE the GOSPEL of each of the "Kingdoms of Heaven"
was DIFFERENT than the Gospel from the preceding Kingdom..

This is also laughable.

That fact alone destroys your pretending.

Fact? Says you.

Not to mention that HISTORY supports Christ's Words and
contradicts your denial of Christ's Words.

Of course history wouldn't contradict the words of Jesus. But I haven't denied any of His words.

otoh, it is YOU who have ADDED to Scripture what Jesus NEVER said. Stop it.

 

[BBAS 64]

When God chose to not destroy man, but rather to save mankind (Gen 3:15) he was granting us the potential for belief and repentance. His very presence is all that is needed to illuminate the heart of man. He is the light that shines on every man! (John 1:9)

Doug

Good Day, Doug

Indeed and man hates the light and runs from it toward darkness they they love and freely embrace due to the wickedness of their heart.... every single time.

Unless God in regeneration removes the (heart of stone) and replaces it with a heart of flesh.

The work of God in the new covenant:

I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Means "potential for belief and repentance" interesting reading of the written word I believe that is referred to as really bad (poor) exegesis.






In Him,

Bill

 

[TibiasDad]

The ONLY "Kingdom of Heaven" not specifically NAMED
by Jesus is the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" containing
all the saints from Adam to Noah.

And therein lies your fallacy, the assumption and declaration of a "Kingdom" that is never mentioned. The second Kingdom is the second kingdom without the reality of the first. And FG2 is correct, there is no nomenclature applied to any of the kingdoms mentioned in Matthew! Thus, they are arbitrary and of no value!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Good Day, Doug

Indeed and man hates the light and runs from it toward darkness they they love and freely embrace due to the wickedness of their heart.... every single time.

Unless God in regeneration removes the (heart of stone) and replaces it with a heart of flesh.

The work of God in the new covenant:

I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Means "potential for belief and repentance" interesting reading of the written word I believe that is referred to as really bad (poor) exegesis.






In Him,

Bill

Bill,

Gen 3:15 is the first proclamation of God that sin's effects will be destroyed. John is, I believe, saying to same thing after the fact, in 1 John 3:8, "...The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work." Part of the devil's work is the sin nature and the power of sin, which is the law! (1Cor 15:56) Crush the father of sin, and you crush sin itself! If this isn't true, what hope or freedom do we have?

Doug

 

[5thKingdom]

Yes, Jesus mentioned "kingdom of heaven" a number of times.

Alright... you will need to THINK a little DEEPER than that.


(1) When Jesus NAMED the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Mat 22:2... WHO was He referring to? What was the CONTEXT?
If you cannot discern those things you cannot offer an "informed
opinion" on the issue.


(2) When Jesus NAMED the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Mat 13 (in 8 verses).... WHO was He referring to?
What was the CONTEXT?


Since this "Kingdom of Heaven" had a DIFFERENT GOSPEL...
(and consisted of DIFFERENT PEOPLE) you must be able to discern
the CONTEXT before you can presume to offer an "informed opinion".


(3) when Jesus NAMED the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" in Mat 25:1... WHO was He referring to? What is the CONTEXT?


Since this "Kingdom of Heaven" had a DIFFERENT GOSPEL...
(and consisted of DIFFERENT PEOPLE) from the previous two
"Kingdoms of Heaven"...you must be able to discern the CONTEXT
before you can offer an "informed opinion".


This "Kingdom of Heaven" could not start til AFTER the testimony
of the church (two candlesticks/two olive trees) was "finished"..
[Rev 11:7] This "Kingdom of Heaven" could not start until AFTER
all the saints had been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]. This "Kingdom" could
not start until AFTER the Holy Spirit was "taken out of the way"
[2Thess 2:6-9]. This "Kingdom of Heaven" could not start until
AFTER Satan was "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2]
to begin his "Little Season" [Rev 20:3]. Only then would the LAST "wheat and tares" (called the "ten virgins" or "ten kings/horns")
leave the Christian Kingdom - as they "went forth" [Mat 25:1] following the Antichrist [Mat 25:1, Dan 7:24-25, Rev 17:11-17]


That is the CONTEXT of this "Kingdom of Heaven"... it was NOT
the same as the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" and it was NOT the
same as the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven". You are simply not
qualified or capable of offering an "informed opinion" because you
cannot discern the CONTEXT of these "Kingdoms of Heaven".


(4) when Jesus NAMED the Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Mat chapters 5 and 7 and 8 and 19 (and other places)
He was NOT talking about the TEMPORAL "Kingdoms of Heaven"
that came before (containing saved and unsaved people)...


He was ONLY talking about the ETERNAL KINGDOM of saints
(no unsaved people are involved)


You are simply not qualified or capable of offering and "informed
opinion" when you cannot even discern the CONTEXT or the
DIFFERENCES between each "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth.


Now... I realize that YOU THINK Biblical Truth is LIMITED to what
YOU can understand. But you are showing that is not the case.
You cannot even discern the DIFFERENCES between EACH of the
different "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth. You are demonstrating
(showing "fruit") that you were NEVER MEANT to understand
these Biblical mysteries... you actually REJECT the Words of Christ.


It is really as simple as that:
God PROMISED [Dan 12:8-10] only the Last Saints
"shall understand" these "sealed" Biblical mysteries.


You NOT UNDERSTANDING what God PROMISED all the
Last Saints "shall understand" ... that fact speaks for itself.


Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

If this isn't true, what hope or freedom do we have?
Doug

First... the hope we have is that God elected to have mercy on us.


Second... DEAD men have secular freedom - but no spiritual freedom
Read Romans 3:10-12 if you don't believe me... or ignore Scripture
if you don't care about Biblical Truth


Third... Satan is not "crushed" until Rev 20:10.
Satan RULES the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"...
so how (exactly) was he "crushed" before then? He was not.


He was "bound" at the Cross so as to not prevent all the sheep
from being found and saved... but he is then "loosened" for the
"Little Season" we all know as the Great Tribulation or Revelation
Beast... the LAST period of time on earth before the Lord Returns.


You have many "feelings" but you cannot harmonize them
with Scripture. You cannot harmonize them with Scripture
because you want to pretend that MAN "decides" to become
elect (or God elects men based on knowing their reaction)
neither is the Gospel of the Bible. The Gospel of the Bible is
very clear that God elects His sheep based ONLY on His own
Good Pleasure and NOT on anything they would do.


This is very simple. You WANT a gospel where men decide.
The Bible PROVIDES a Gospel where God alone decides.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

And therein lies your fallacy, the assumption and declaration of a "Kingdom" that is never mentioned.
Doug

Doug... First, not only is the "Kingdom" mentioned...
it is specifically NAMED by Jesus.


What is the CONTEXT of the people living in Mat 24 and 25?
It is the Great Tribulation. If you cannot discern the CONTEXT
of a passage... you have no hope of understanding the meaning.


What is the CONTEXT of the people that "went forth" into the
Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast of Daniel's Fourth Beast?


These people are called "ten virgins" that "went forth" from the
Christian Kingdom... into the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"


They are called the "ten horns/kings" that
"agree to give their KINGDOM to the [Revelation] Beast"
[Rev 17:11-12 and 17:17]


They are (again) called the "ten horns/kings" (who are "the saints")
who are Ruled by the "Little Horn" (Anti-christ) in Daniel's Fourth Kingdom/Beast [Dan 7:24-25]


In EACH CASE they are the people living on earth when the
Lord Returns to establish the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven".
BTW: they are also shown as the ten "toes" and ten "kings" of Dan 2:44


In EACH CASE they are the last "wheat and tares" on earth
AFTER the "testimony" of the church (two candlesticks/olive trees)
has been "finished" [Rev 11:7] and AFTER all the sheep have been
saved/sealed [Rev 7:1-12] and AFTER the Holy Spirit has been
"taken out of the way" [2Thess 2:6-9] so that Satan can
be "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2] to
begin his "Little Season" [Rev 20:3]


There is NO QUESTION that Jesus specifically NAMED four
(of the five) "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth and EACH had
(a) different people and (b) different Gospels.


And there is NO QUESTION the Bible PROMISED the Last Saints
"shall understand" these "sealed" mysteries [Dan 12:8-10] and
Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see ALL these things"
[Mat 24:15 and 24:33] and the Bible PROMISES these
same Last Saints shall PREACH these mysteries as the
the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]


The ONLY QUESTION is why you pretend DENIAL of this
harmony of Scripture (confirmed in real time) is the same
as REFUTING this prophecy. You know better than that,
but you cannot refute so you are limited to denial.


Now... I have laid-out enough details that, if not true,
you should have NO PROBLEM finding at least ONE VERSE
in the Bible that REFUTES (not denies) these unsealed mysteries.


Can you DO THAT?


Can you find ONE VERSE in the Bible that REFUTES
something I have said about the five "Kingdoms of Heaven"
on earth... or about the END of the Christian "Kingdom" and
beginning of the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast/Daniel's
Fourth Beast.


If you cannot REFUTE anything with Scripture then your
DENIAL not only proves nothing... it actually confirms everything
I have said because the Bible PROMISES only the Last Saints
(the wise virgins) "shall understand" these mysteries that
HARMONIZE with ALL RELATED Scriptures.


I sincerely look forward to you providing at least ONE VERSE
of Scripture that contradicts anything I have said about these
"Kingdoms of Heaven". We both know you have had adequate
Biblical training to be able to refute something if not Biblical and
we both know you consider yourself a Bible "expert". So I do
sincerely look forward to you refuting my words from Scripture,
or confirming my words... if you are unable to refute them.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

And FG2 is correct, there is no nomenclature applied to any of the kingdoms mentioned in Matthew! Thus, they are arbitrary and of no value!
Doug

Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God
SHALL BE TAKEN from you, AND GIVEN to a nation
bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:45
And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables,
they perceived that he spake of them.


Doug... before you embarrass yourself further,
please tell me WHO are the CONTEXT of the "Kingdom of Heaven"
Jesus specifically NAMED in Matthew 22:2-7


And then tell me WHO is the CONTEXT of those
who replaced that Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
in verses 8-14.


Can you do that Doug?
Can you discern the context of Mat 22:2-7
and the context of Mat 22:8-14?


For you to say:
"there is no nomenclature applied"
Is to say you CANNOT DISCERN the CONTEXT of a passage.
Do you REALLY want that to be your argument...
that you cannot discern context?


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

And FG2 is correct, there is no nomenclature applied to any of the kingdoms mentioned in Matthew! Thus, they are arbitrary and of no value!
Doug

So you are telling me you cannot discern the CONTEXT of
these passages... you simply cannot discern whether they
are talking about the Jewish Kingdom or the Christian Kingdom
or the Eternal Kingdom... that is your argument?


Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Mat 13:47 Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Doug... you REALLY want your argument to be ignorance?
FG2 often argues from ignorance... You want to do the same?
You REALLY cannot tell WHO is the CONTEXT of these passages?
Really?


Jim

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Yes, Jesus mentioned "kingdom of heaven" a number of times."

Alright... you will need to THINK a little DEEPER than that.

I did and the result was refuting your arbitrary claims about the theory of multiple "kingdoms of heaven".

(1) When Jesus NAMED the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Mat 22:2... WHO was He referring to? What was the CONTEXT?
If you cannot discern those things you cannot offer an "informed
opinion" on the issue.

The fallacy of your claims is to prove where Jesus "named" that kingdom as "the Jewish Kingdom". It's just your opinion.

(2) When Jesus NAMED the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Mat 13 (in 8 verses).... WHO was He referring to?
What was the CONTEXT?

Again, the fallacy of your claims is to prove whre Jesus "names that kingdom as "the Christian Kingdom". It's just your opinion.

Since this "Kingdom of Heaven" had a DIFFERENT GOSPEL...
(and consisted of DIFFERENT PEOPLE) you must be able to discern
the CONTEXT before you can presume to offer an "informed opinion".

(3) when Jesus NAMED the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" in Mat 25:1... WHO was He referring to? What is the CONTEXT?

Since this "Kingdom of Heaven" had a DIFFERENT GOSPEL...
(and consisted of DIFFERENT PEOPLE) from the previous two
"Kingdoms of Heaven"...you must be able to discern the CONTEXT
before you can offer an "informed opinion".

This "Kingdom of Heaven" could not start til AFTER the testimony
of the church (two candlesticks/two olive trees) was "finished"..
[Rev 11:7] This "Kingdom of Heaven" could not start until AFTER
all the saints had been "sealed" [Rev 7:1-3]. This "Kingdom" could
not start until AFTER the Holy Spirit was "taken out of the way"
[2Thess 2:6-9]. This "Kingdom of Heaven" could not start until
AFTER Satan was "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit [Rev 9:1-2]
to begin his "Little Season" [Rev 20:3]. Only then would the LAST "wheat and tares" (called the "ten virgins" or "ten kings/horns")
leave the Christian Kingdom - as they "went forth" [Mat 25:1] following the Antichrist [Mat 25:1, Dan 7:24-25, Rev 17:11-17]

It is clear that you don't grasp the difference between a "context" and what is "named".

Until you get that straightened out, you will never understand what you are trying to explain.

That is the CONTEXT of this "Kingdom of Heaven"... it was NOT
the same as the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" and it was NOT the
same as the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven". You are simply not
qualified or capable of offering an "informed opinion" because you
cannot discern the CONTEXT of these "Kingdoms of Heaven".

God's kingdom is everything. He created the entire universe and everything beyond, so the "kingdom of heaven" refers to everything He created.

(4) when Jesus NAMED the Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"
in Mat chapters 5 and 7 and 8 and 19 (and other places)
He was NOT talking about the TEMPORAL "Kingdoms of Heaven"
that came before (containing saved and unsaved people)...

Jesus didn't "name" any kingdom of heaven. Didn't you read what you quote?

You haven't shown where Jesus gave a name to ANY "kingdom of heaven". So your claim is merely empty.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doug... First, not only is the "Kingdom" mentioned...
it is specifically NAMED by Jesus.

OK, Jim. Just what "name" did He give to any of the "kingdom of heaven" phrases?

You still haven't shown where He gave any kind of name to "kingdom of heaven".

What is the CONTEXT of the people that "went forth" into the
Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast of Daniel's Fourth Beast?

Your error is to ascribe a "name" on the basis of a "context".