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What Time Do You Think It Is??

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Jul 7, 2002.

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  1. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    I believe they are all inter-connected (the II Thes 2:4 "son of perdition", the 2 beasts of Revelation 13 and the Whore of Babylon) and different ways of looking at the same entity. As the saying goes, "all roads lead to Rome." 

    The traditional view (at least it's in the notes of my KJV Scofield Bible!)of the 2 beasts of Revelation 13 is that the first beast is the empire of the Antichrist and the second beast is the Antichrist himself, however many today see two separate persons, the Antichrist and the False Prophet.

    This is probably in large measure due to our concept of the separation of the powers of the world into spiritual and temporal, between church and state.

    But are there powers behind the scences influencing even temporal powers, being involved in world events for the past 500 years, all trying to bring the entire world back under the control of Rome? 

    Some have said there is a "white pope" and a "black pope"... 

    See http://www.historicist.com/articles/blackpope.htm

     
     
  2. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
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    Protestant
    Speaking of the Jesuits, I found the "Extreme Oath of the Jesuits" here:

    http://www.reformation.org/jesuit_oath_in_action.html

    Here an excerpt from the oath:

    While no pope has been a Jesuit, it is interesting that the press has been touting a Jesuit to be the successor of Pope John Paul II.

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/780100.asp?cp1=1#BODY

    The Jesuit Cardinal Martini was quoted as saying "I have often said that my real dream is to end my days in Jerusalem. When I retire I want to go there to pray and study the scriptures".

    It should be noted that Cardinal Martini, who was behind the NIV and other new versions of the Bible, is now 75 years of age. It interesting, however, that the press continues to push his name as a successor (MSNBC calling his age an "asset") and that John Paul II is in "no hurry" to step down.

    Quoting the MSNBC link above:

    "But Martini will still be a candidate at the next conclave. His age is actually an asset: the common wisdom in Rome is that the Roman Catholic Church needs a breather after the exhausting pontificate of John Paul II. The pope, who was gasping for air at the Wednesday audience in his summer palace last week, has already reigned for more than 23 years."
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    If the Antichrist, False Prophet, and Woman Babylon are all the Pope, how does the Pope ride on the back of the Pope (Revelation 17:3), why would the 10 kings of the Pope destroy the Pope (Revelation 17:16), and how would the Pope be taken, and with him the Pope that wrought miracles before the Pope? (Revelation 19:20) Who are "these both?" (Revelation 19:20)
     
  4. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
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    Protestant
    I believe the first beast is the political kingdom in which the Antichrist arises.  The second beast is the Antichrist himself, identical to the False Prophet and Man of Sin. The Whore of Babylon is the paganized Roman Church of the Inquisition, a counterfeit to the true Bride of Christ.  All are based in Rome.

    The woman riding the beast is probably an allusion to the Roman Church and its power over Political/Temporal Rome. 

      

    I see this as Political/Temporal Rome destroying Religious Rome.

    Why would this happen?  Scripture simply states "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled (Revelation 17:17)

    (Some have said a foreshadow of this happened during the French Revolution when radicals tried to completely destroy the Church and establish a New World Order.) 

     
     
  5. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    From God's view (IMHO) only one nation(people's) can be called a whore if it discontinue's it's relationship with Him. Israel (The true Church, Christians). A counterfeit of the true bride would already be against God, so in turn could not discontinue its relationship with God, thus making it a whore in God's sight.
    Think of it this way. It would be like you accusing someone that doesn't really know you or vice versa as committing adultery against you. Can't happen. Besides, there are numerous accounts in the O.T. of how God describes Israel as a whore or in a sense, cheating on God with other so called gods.
     
  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    I believe the first beast is the Antichrist, an individual man: "No man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six" (Revelation 13:17-18). "They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11). "I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" (Revelation 15:2). "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet" (Revelation 16:13).

    Note that the False Prophet in Revelation 13 isn't the one claiming that he himself is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) or the one exalting himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped (2 Thessalonians 2:4), but is instead the one who "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast" (Revelation 13:12), so that the Antichrist (the first beast) is the man who is worshipped, "and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him" (Revelation 13:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4), while the False Prophet is the man who will perform the signs which deceive the world into worshipping him and his image (Revelation 13:11-15). The Antichrist and False Prophet are two separate individuals who will "both" be cast alive into the lake of fire at Christ's 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).

    I don't think the Catholic Church can be charged with every political, economic, and religious sin throughout history. It isn't "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18) or the only one to "buy merchandise" from the merchants of the earth (Revelation 18:11), nor does it contain "the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of ALL that were slain upon the earth" (Revelation 18:24), nor did it ride the 5 empires that had fallen by John's time (Revelation 17:3, 9-10): Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, and Greece.
     
  7. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    The identities of the first and second beasts have been widely debated. 

    I see the first beast in light of the beasts described in Daniel 7.  Daniel 7's beasts refer to Gentile kingdoms.  I see the fourth beast of Daniel 7 the same as the first beast of Revelation 13.

    Out of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 arises "a little horn" among "ten horns".  I see this as parallel to the second beast of Revelation 13 arising from the first beast.  It is also the "mouth speaking great things" on the first beast. 

    I don't see the parallel of "two separate guys" mentioned in Daniel, a separate Antichrist and False Prophet.

     
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    I believe Revelation 13:1 describes the kingdom of the beast, referred to elsewhere as "his kingdom": "The fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness" (Revelation 16:10). I believe this individual man will be destroyed by Jesus at the 2nd coming, along with the False Prophet individual: "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone" (Revelation 19:19-20).

    Note that it doesn't say the second beast of Revelation 13 arises from the first beast, but that the 2nd beast arises from the earth (Revelation 13:11), while the first beast arises from the sea (Revelation 13:1).
     
  9. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
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    Protestant
    Of course, the beasts, the sea, and the earth are all metaphors. Revelation 13 is highly mysterious and the meaning of the "sea" and the "earth" are debatable (just as are the "beasts").   

    (Some have said "sea" refers to Gentile nations and "earth" refers to Israel or spiritual Israel/the Church.) 

    By turning to the book of Daniel, we might notice that "the little horn" (whether from the "sea" or the "earth") arises from the "ten horns" of the fourth "beast" in the parallel passage in Daniel Chapter 7.  In Daniel, beasts refer to kingdoms, and horns refer to kings (see also Daniel Chapter 8): 

    "7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:7-8
      

    So, we should be agreed that the antichrist/little horn (king) arises from the ten kings of Daniel 7's fourth beast (kingdom).

    The little horn of Daniel 7 also has a feature identical to the first beast of Revelation 13, namely a "mouth speaking great things", which further proves that the little horn comes from the first beast of Revelation 13.  Whether the little horn is also the false prophet is another question.

    It is interesting that the second beast of Revelation 13 is no longer a beast in Revelation 19, but a person, the false prophet.  However, the first beast of Revelation 13 is still a beast in Revelation 19.  

    I believe it is possible that the "second beast with two horns" of Revelation 13 (in keeping with the pattern Daniel gives us in defining beasts as kingdoms and horns as kings) refers to Apostate Christendom and its two major divisions with an Eastern Bishop (Patriarch) and Western Bishop (Pope).  Later in Revelation, the second beast becomes known as simply "the false prophet", apparently because one of the two bishops has assumed control of all of Apostate Christendom. 

    By the time of Revelation 19, then, the two beasts/kingdoms we first saw in Revelation 13 have become one beast/kingdomPLUS one individual, the "false prophet", being thrown into the lake of fire at the Second Coming.
     
  10. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
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    Protestant
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    Again, I believe the first beast of Revelation 13 is referred to as an individual man: "No man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six" (Revelation 13:17-18). "They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11). "I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" (Revelation 15:2). "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet" (Revelation 16:13). 3 separate mouths.
     
  12. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Fasinating stuff THUNDER. This is by far , the best thread I have read of your bro. I don`t necicarily agree with it all but it does make perfect sence and I will have to think about a few things you`ve pointed out hear.

     

    Exallent thread Bro , is this all your own Ideas and writing because if it is , I am impressed.

     

    Celtic. :clap: :cool:
     
  13. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    Do we have an example in Daniel of beasts/kingdoms/empires being referred to as "he/his" instead of "it/its"?

    Notice in Daniel 8:7, we see a ram with two horns being smitten by a "he-goat" (in the KJV).  Most believe this to be the empire of Media-Persia being defeated by the empire of Greece. Tne notable "horn" between "his" eyes (Daniel 8:5) is thought to be Alexander the Great. 

    5  And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 
     6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power. 
    7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand." Daniel 8:5-7
     
  14. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    ..Still another way of telling us this man comes from the first beast/kingdom? Again, whether this man is also the false prophet is another question.

    Quite mysterious, to say the least.  We can at least see who is  behind this beast's man's plans....the dragon, Satan himself!  Or, should I have said "beast-man"?  In my view, he's a beast's man, or even more accurately a beast's beast's man, since Satan here is shown to be still another beast, a dragon.

    By the use of the term dragon, perhaps this is not just Satan, but Satan's kingdom being referred to...see Ephesians 6:11-12!

    11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

    12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:11-12)


    Now if this man is also the false prophet, he then comes from a total of three beasts/kingdoms, in light of Revelation 13.  In my view, this single man would then come from these three kingdoms: [1]the Satanic kingdom, [2]the political earthly kingdom based in Rome, and [3]Apostate Christendom based in Rome.
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Note again that the False Prophet in Revelation 13 isn't the one claiming that he himself is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) or the one exalting himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped (2 Thessalonians 2:4), but is instead the one who "causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast" (Revelation 13:12), so that the Antichrist (the first beast) is the man who is worshipped, "and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him" (Revelation 13:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4), while the False Prophet is the man who will perform the signs which deceive the world into worshipping him and his image (Revelation 13:11-15). The Antichrist and False Prophet are two separate individuals who will "both" be cast alive into the lake of fire at Christ's 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20).
     
  16. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    Tabling the question of whether or not this "666 man" and "false prophet" are the same individual for the moment, let's just take a look at the first beast of Revelation 13.

    Is this beast a kingdom/empire or a man?

    Revelation 13's first beast...

    1 "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 
    2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
    4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."  Revelaton 13:1-5


    And Daniel 7's four beasts, paying attention especially to the fourth beast...

    3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
    4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
    5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
    6  After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:3-8
     

    Daniel 7's first three beasts are like [1]a lion, [2]a bear, and [3]a leapord.

    Revelation 13's first beast is like [1]a leopard, [2] has feet like a bear, and [3] a mouth like a lion.

    A mirror image!

    Revelation 13's first beast is a composite beast, and a mirror image composite of Daniel 7's first three beasts.  Daniel 7's fourth beast is unnamed but must be the same composite beast of the first beast of Revelation 13.  Daniel and John were looking at the same beast, Daniel from the past and John from the future!

    Daniel 7's four beasts are widely believed to be pictures of four empires, [1] Babylon, [2] Media-Persia, [3] Greece, [4]and Rome.  (Compare Nebuchadnezzar's image described in Daniel Chapter 2.)

    Revelation 13's first beast is believed to be [4] Rome, with features of its 3 predecessors:  [3] Greece,  [2] Media-Persia,  [1]and Babylon.  

    Rome was the empire in power at the First Advent of Jesus Christ, and, according to prophecy, will continue in power until His Second Advent, when all prophecies concerning His Kingdom will have been fulfilled.

    The "666 man" who "speaks great things" will come from this beast/empire, and is the same man described as the "little horn" whose mouth "speaks great things" in Daniel 7:8.  Note that the beast of Revelation 13, who already has the mouth of a lion is given  another mouth in Revelation 13:5.  This "additional mouth" is the metaphorical equivalent to Daniel 7's "little horn's mouth". 

    Also, note that both beasts have 10 horns.  Daniel tells us 3 of the 10 horns will be plucked up by their roots, bringing them to 7.  This is probably equivalent to John's description of a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns.  John tells us one of the 7 heads is "as it were" wounded to death, but is healed.

    Does this sound like a man or an empire?  Was there an empire  around in Jesus's time that fell and came back to life?  Are you looking for a "666 man", to apparently die and then come back to life?  Or is this a description of the Roman Empire, which fell and was then revived...a "revived Roman Empire"? 

    To me, it is quite obvious that this beast is an empire!
     
  17. closer

    closer New Member

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    May I ask simple question? Please give me some reason to support a pre or mid-trib rapture. There must be a literal not interpretive scripture to support this idea. Let us understand that in none of the major eschotological discourses done by anyone tells of a secret coming of Christ for the Church.
    II Thess. gives strong evidence of a public showing. Secondly the word meet in the Greek means to be go out for an immediate return.
    Rev. 3:10 refers to temptation. Never has it been a temptation for the Church to face persecution. It has always been a honor to die in the service of Christ. If it was good enough for Jesus and the Apostles why do we think we can slide out. This does not give evidence of a secret return. The explanation that it gives protection is just as strong and it is Biblically more sound.
    The fact that a post-trib rapture was the key belief of every major church father untill the 3rd century also adds weight. This also includes Polycarp who studied under the Apostle John the Revelator.
    The post regarding time is a misconception. The word used for watch is one of preparation but not one for immediate action. It is used for the unexpected, but not for ignorance.
    A pretribulation doctrine was not developed untill about 300 years ago out of an esctatic utterance at a prophecy conference held by a man who did not even believe in the diety of Christ. For God to reveal something so important under such speculative circumstances, and not untill the latter part of the church ages is very very shaky to base a theological position of such magnitude.
    By the way I do agree with a lot of dispensational thought. Still this is a weak postition defended more off of speculative inference that Biblical source work.
     
  18. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    It's a good question and is a topic that has been dealt with many times on these boards.

    A quick answer of what my view is:  I agree in a post-tribulational rapture in the historicist sense, but a pre-tribulational rapture in the dispensational/futurist sense....if that makes sense! :)
     
  19. closer

    closer New Member

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    I believe I am seeing your point. Could you please post a method to harmonize the two points as you see them. Or do you believe it is one or the other depending on the method of interpretation.
     
  20. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    Closer,

    I believe it just comes from a lot of Bible study and studying both positions.

    It's like we have two eyes.  When we close one eye we see things from one point of view..then when we close the other eye we see things from the other point of view.  When we open both eyes, we begin to see things 3-dimensionally.

    Too many in the futurist camp are focused too much on the future and blind to the history of the Church and the First Coming.  Too many in the preterist camp are focused too much on the First Coming and blind to the history of the Church and the Second Coming.

    For me, the proper eschatalogical perspective must always be anchored in being ever prepared for the Imminent Return of the Lord as expressed in Revelation 22:20 "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus"!

    This persepective is well expressed in the Presbyerian's Westminster Confession of Faith in its last paragraph regarding the Last Judgement:

    http://www.reformed.org/documents/westminster_conf_of_faith.html

     
     
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