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What Time Do You Think It Is??

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Jul 7, 2002.

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  1. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    this thread is no longer available
     
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  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    bump
     
  3. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

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  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe two major signs are given in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

    What scripture are you thinking of here?

    What scripture are you thinking of here?
     
  5. jenlu

    jenlu Member

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  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

    Where does Revelation 3:10 promise the church an imminent pre-trib rapture?
     
  8. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    I have studied the dispensational view for several years, but the historicist view is also quite interesting..and if true it could be "later" than we think.

    One of the key verses that dispensationalists point to that put end times events still in the future is II Thes 2..they are waiting for the temple to be rebuilt and waiting for the "man of sin" to sit in this temple, declaring he is God. 

    The Protestant reformers thought this had already been fulfilled.

    Of course, the possibility of a future temple did not even seem remotely possible back then, so maybe they were at a disadvantage. Today, talk of a future temple is a reality among Orthodox Jews who are now back in their homeland (see target=_blank>http://www.templemountfaithful.org/).

    Were the Bible's prophetic "temple" and "man of sin" verses referring to events still in the future? Or have those verses already been fulfilled long ago as was originally thought by the Protestant reformers?   Here is an interesting web site that says the verses have already been fulfilled.  The author is a Jewish Christian.

    http://www.truthleftbehind.com/bookchaptertitanictruths.html

     

    In short, this view states that the "temple" refers to the Church and that the pope was the "man of sin".  The pope has already exalted himself in the church.  If this is correct, then it is indeed later than we think.

    Perhaps there is a little truth in each view.  I still think that there will be a future not-yet-revealed political figure to come on to the world scene who will deceive the world, and that these events will involve the modern state of Israel and the Jewish people.

     
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

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    Concept of time according to the Apostle Paul: And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light" [Rom. 13:11,12].

    So that ye come behind in no gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" [I Cor. 1:7].

    But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none." "And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away" (lit. "is passing away") [I Cor. 7:29,31].

    Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." "For yet a little while (lit. "soon, very soon") and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" [Heb. 10:25,37].

    Time according to James:  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and later rain. Be ye also patient, establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door" [James 5:7-9].

    Time according to Peter:  "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" [I Pet. 1:5].

    "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead."... "but the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."... "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God" [I Pet. 4:5,7,17]

    Do any of these inspired writers contradict each other?

    Who were these passages spoken TO?

     

     

     
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that even after the crucifixion had annulled the temple sacrifices (Hebrews 7:18), Jesus commanded the apostles to speak to the people in "the temple" (Acts 5:20), and Paul went to "the temple" to pray (Acts 22:17) and was found "purified in the temple" (Acts 24:18, 21:26), and in a prophetic vision John measured "the temple of God" that will stand during the coming tribulation while the city of Jerusalem is being trodden under foot by the Gentiles for the 42 months of the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 11:1-2, 13:5).
    I believe the Jewish temple will be rebuilt (Revelation 11:1-2), daily sacrifices will be reinstituted (Daniel 9:27, 11:31), a false Messiah will arise to rule Israel (Ezekiel 21:25), the Antichrist will make a 7-year treaty with him (Daniel 9:26-27), in the midst of which 7 years the Antichrist will break the treaty (Daniel 9:27) and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God above all gods (Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 13:6, 8), and so commit "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36).
    Note that it can refer to the physical temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 23:16, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, John 2:20).

    How have they done either?
     
  11. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Maybe you were not paying attention in history class, forgetting the torturous inquistion of millions of Christians and Jews during the middle ages, the paganization of Christianity by the Roman Church, and the many abuses of the papacy that led to the Protestant Revolution?

    This view was shared by all the Protestant reformers, not by just a few voices "on the fringe".  By voicing dissent to the Roman Church, they and their followers paid with their blood, enduring horrible deaths and excrutiating and merciless pain in many cases. So even though their books are not on the New York Times bestseller list, maybe we should at least listen to them... 

    Quoting Steve Wohlberg, here is a sampling of opinions during the turbulent years of the Protestant Revolution. 

    http://www.truthleftbehind.com/AntichristChroniclesChapter9.html

    </DT>
     
  12. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Everyone,
    I don't want to mess up a good debate, but just to throw in a few cents worth. I am terrible at debating, so I will leave it for you heavy-weights.

    I believe McFly is right about the subject of the "restrainer" has been and will continue to be very controversial. If you'll allow me my opinion, I'll promise not to cram it down your throats. This subject is not very important to me personally. But I believe that when Jesus told His disciples to wait for the comforter, He was going to send them power from on high. This restrainer in MHO is none other than the Holy Spirit. When the Lord calls His Bride up to meet Him in the clouds, the restrainer will also leave this earth and spiritual things on earth will be as they were before the church began.
    Do you think the church would not raise a mighty fuss if this man of sin rose to power and tried to sell his plan for the mark of the beast now?? He would be exposed at the drop of a hat. He would be ruined. But on the other hand, if Christ took His bride, this problem would be removed. The tribulation saints will be overcome, thus he will not be opposed with much of a threat at all. Also, there is no need of such a mark. The worlds economy will have to collapse before they will accept it, and it will even include the rich as well. This sounds like their money will fail them. The rapture will accomplish both problems for a lost and dying world. So I believe that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit that is living inside of every believer. Then you will see the apostate Church set up, with the great falling away from the way, the truth and the life that the unbelieving world rejected. And they will be preaching what their itching ears want to hear, not unlike many are doing even today, and some even on this very forum.
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    How does the&nbsp;papacy "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped?" And how&nbsp;is the papacy&nbsp;"shewing himself that he is God?" (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

    Note that the Bible says that God himself will send a "strong delusion" on all unbelievers so they will believe in the Antichrist when he proclaims that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4-12, compare Revelation 13:4-8).

    And the Antichrist will be "given power" to "make war" against Christians "and to overcome them" (Revelation 13:7), just as the Roman emperors who said they were gods were allowed to persecute and kill so many Christians in the early church.

    I don't believe it can be because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    Note that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Paul says&nbsp;that both the great falling away and the abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8).
     
  14. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    The titles of the Pope, "the true Vicar of Christ", "His Holiness", "Most Holy", "Holy Father", "Supreme High Priest" are titles only appropriate to God alone.&nbsp; The true Vicar of Christ is the Holy Spirit, not the Pope.

    "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." Matthew 23:8-9

    I would recommend&nbsp;"The Antichrist Unveiled" by Richard Bennett, a former Roman Catholic priest..see link below.&nbsp;

    http://www.bereanbeacon.org/Prof.html
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    When has the Pope himself "opposed" God or "exalted himself above" all that is called God, or that is worshipped? (2 Thessalonians 2:4) Doesn't the Pope claim that he agrees with God on everything and that he is under God and worships God? When has the Pope ever claimed that "he is God?" (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Good question postrib. I am interested in the answer to that one. In MHO, If it didn't happen in the past, then I wouldn't expect it to be fulfilled in the future either, because everything of significance that will happen in the future will have already happened in the past, but the past is only the shadow. By that I mean that the greater event will be the future one. Not only did God create the end from the beginning, but He also makes history repeat itself, (Eccles.3:15). I'm not up to par with knowledge of the Popes, but I would be interested in the input offered.
     
  17. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Is this a requirement of II Thessalonians 2:4 that&nbsp;the "son of perdition"&nbsp;be quoted as saying&nbsp;"he is God"?&nbsp;&nbsp;The scripture simply says that "he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God".

    Would the devil's man appear to be an "insider" like Judas Iscariot who Jesus called a "devil" (John 6:70)&nbsp;and "son of perdition" (John 17:12)(which must have been a shock to the other 11 disciples)? &nbsp;Wasn't&nbsp;Satan himself&nbsp;an "insider"&nbsp;in the presence of God in&nbsp;heaven before his fall..an annointed cherub who fancied himself&nbsp;being like the most High&nbsp;(Isaiah 14:12-14, Ezekiel 28:12-15)?&nbsp; The devils, too, believe, and tremble (James 2:19).

    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4&nbsp;&nbsp;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. II Thessalonians 2:3-4


    Along with the Pope's titles&nbsp;"the true Vicar of Christ", "His Holiness", "Most Holy", "Holy Father", "Supreme High Priest" that are appropriate only to God, he claims to have "supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls" (Catholic Catechism #937), an assertion of power given to Jesus Christ alone.

    Again, I would refer to the following web site from a former Roman Catholic priest. http://www.bereanbeacon.org/Prof.html

    It was the opinion of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles Wesley, Roger Williams, Sir Isaac Newton, and Protestant scholars&nbsp;for 300 years that the papacy met the "requirements" for the "man of sin" set forth in II Thessalonians 2:4 and the rest of scripture.

    I&nbsp;don't believe that the Bible&nbsp;is&nbsp;silent on the most&nbsp;violent time thus far&nbsp;in Church history, that being the days of the Dark Ages and Middle Ages when terror ruled over Europe by means of the Inquisition and the Pope's "skilled torturers".&nbsp;&nbsp; An estimated&nbsp;100 million&nbsp;people including 75 million Protestants&nbsp;were tortured to death&nbsp;over a 1200 year period (from Fox's Book of Martyrs and other sources).&nbsp;

    http://www.reformed.org/books/fox/fox_martyrs.html

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm&nbsp;

    http://www.reformation.org/inquisit.html

    "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." Revelation 17:16

    I have studied the futurist/dispensational view for years, but the historicist view is quite interesting and worthy of our study.&nbsp;

    As Richard Bennett puts it (see link in previous post), "While futurism asserts the nearness of the Second Advent of Christ, it destroys the historical timeframe of His opposer, the Antichrist, which is essential to correctly understanding this fulfillment of prophecy."

    Many of today's&nbsp;prophecy scholars&nbsp;see the&nbsp;False Prophet&nbsp;as a separate man from the Antichrist..the Pope or another religious figure, perhaps,&nbsp;will&nbsp;be the False Prophet, and a political figure will be the Antichrist.&nbsp; Perhaps, this is based on the contemporary concept of&nbsp;the "separation of church and state".&nbsp; But is "separation of church and state" just a temporary phenomenon? We will just have to wait and see.
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe&nbsp;he makes this claim in the belief that he is the chief bishop of the church on earth, not in the belief that he is Jesus or God.

    Has the Pope fulfilled Revelation 13?

    What are the seven symbolic heads and ten symbolic horns of the Pope? (Revelation 13:1)

    Was one of the seven symbolic heads of the Pope wounded to death and then healed? (Revelation 13:3)

    Does all the world worship Satan and the Pope? (Revelation 13:3-4)

    Was power given to the Pope to continue forty and two months? (Revelation 13:5)

    Did the Pope open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven? (Revelation 13:6) Doesn't the Pope honor God and honor the name of God and honor the saints that dwell in heaven?

    Was the Pope given power over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations, and did all that dwell upon the earth worship the Pope, whose names are not written in the book of life? (Revelation 13:7-8)

    Did the Pope have a False Prophet who caused the earth to worship him? (Revelation 13:12)

    Did the Pope have a False Prophet who did great wonders and called fire down from heaven in the sight of men? (Revelation 13:13)

    Did the Pope have a False Prophet who deceived the earth by the means of the miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the Pope? (Revelation 13:14)

    Did the Pope have a False Prophet who said to the earth that they should make an image of the Pope? (Revelation 13:14)

    Did the Pope have a False Prophet who gave life to the image of the Pope, that the image of the Pope should both speak, and cause as many who would not worship the image of the Pope to be killed? (Revelation 13:14-15)

    Did the Pope have a False Prophet who caused everyone to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their forehead? (Revelation 13:16)

    Did the Pope have a False Prophet who made it so that nobody could buy or sell unless they had the mark, or the name of the Pope, or the number of the Pope's name? (Revelation 13:16-17)

    Was the number of the Pope's name, which was the number of a man, 666? (Revelation 13:18)
     
  19. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Regarding the&nbsp;Pope and 666, here is some interesting information I found&nbsp;from this web site:

    &nbsp;http://christianessays.freeservers.com/antichrist1.htm

    "When a Pope is crowned, there is placed on his head a heavy golden crown made of three crowns. One crown represents rulership over heaven, one is for rulership over earth, and the third is for rulership over hell.&nbsp; When this golden crown is placed on the Pope's head at his coronation, it bears the inscription VICARIUS FILII DEI, which means, in English, "Vicarius Son of God"."&nbsp;

    The numeric value of VICARIUS FILII DEI is 666

    The eastern Roman Empire used Greek, the western Roman Empire used Latin as its main language. For the Roman Catholic Church, it was a Latin world with Latin liturgy and a Latin Vulgate Bible.

    The numeric value of "Latin" is 666. When "Latin" is changed to the Greek "Lateinos", the value is also 666.&nbsp; Pope Vitallian issued a decree commanding the use of Latin in all&nbsp;Roman Catholic services in 666 A.D.

    Iraneus, back in the 2nd century, and a follower of the apostle John wrote: "Lateinos has the number 666, and this is a very probable solution".

    From: http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/claims.htm&nbsp;(this link includes pictures of the Pope's triple crown!)

    &nbsp;

    While Pope John Paul II has a triple crown on his coat of arms, it should be noted that:

    Postrib asked: Has the Pope fulfilled Revelation 13?&nbsp;

    It is probably at least partially fulfilled..future events are probably yet to be played out, though, regarding the&nbsp;Jewish people. We will have to continue paying attention to current events, keeping an eye especially on&nbsp;the Vatican, the Middle East, Europe, the UN and the new International Criminal Court.&nbsp;&nbsp;Here is a possible verse-by-verse commentary on Revelation 13 of what has been fulfilled thus far..interesting reading!

    http://historicist.tripod.com/ch13.htm
     
  20. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I agree; I still don't see how the Pope has already fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4 or any part of Revelation 13 (see my questions in my last post).

    If you believe a future Pope will, who do you believe the False Prophet will be, and who&nbsp;or what is the Woman Babylon?
     
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