What think ye of Ezekiel's Temple?

[seventysevens]

I don’t know, providing any one specific name is only speculation, as multiple historical figures leading up to the temple destruction could fit, and as Paul doesn’t identify the man of sin or that which was restraining him during Paul’s time. Paul only mentions that the Thessalonians church already knew the restrainers identity.

Exactly because - it has not happened yet as I have shown the scripture that shows that particular man has not yet appeared on the world stage ,scripture Plainly states outright in no uncertain terms that the person in 2Thess2 being called the Man of Lawlessness is killed by ONLY Jesus and no one else as it is ONLY Jesus that has the power to do it
When people insist that things that have not yet happened claim they have already happened - then they MUST provide verifiable proof that it has happened - Speculation is not evidence and we know there is none because as the scripture BOLDLY States that Jesus kills that man by speaking a word - probably something like - Be cast into the lake of fire - and he is gone

Gods word always trumps any theology

 

[BABerean2]

Gods word always trumps any theology

Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis

.

 

[seventysevens]

.

Great Errors is thinking that 2Thess2 has been fulfilled - if you believe it has - it is then your great error

 

[claninja]

Exactly because - it has not happened yet as I have shown the scripture that shows that particular man has not yet appeared on the world stage

World stage?

scripture Plainly states outright in no uncertain terms that the person in 2Thess2 being called the Man of Lawlessness is killed by ONLY Jesus

I agree that Jesus destroys the man of lawlessness as scripture states this.

When people insist that things that have not yet happened claim they have already happened - then they MUST provide verifiable proof that it has happened

We have 2 instances of verifiable proof in scripture

1.) he was being restrained during the time of Paul:

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2:6 - English Standard Version

2.) the temple was standing when Paul wrote this (50-53 ad)

In order for one to state this is not yet fulfilled, they have to overcome the fact that Paul doesn’t mention the destruction of the ‘2nd’ temple followed by 2000 years, then a 3rd temple rebuilt. And they must also overcome that the man of sin must now be 2000 years old, as he existed during the time of Paul.

Speculation is not evidence

I agree, hence I didn’t name a specific person, as Paul didn’t specifically name the man of sin. Now I can speculate, and match up what Paul says to a couple of different historical figures prior to the temple destruction, but it wouldn’t prove anything 100% as Paul did not specifically name the man of sin.

scripture BOLDLY States that Jesus kills that man by speaking a word - probably something like - Be cast into the lake of fire - and he is gone

God also personally killed many people in the Old Testament by many different means.

Gods word always trumps any theology

Including dispensationalism

 

[keras]

Additionally, a little confused by your belief. Which is it keras? How can we, as you say, not yet be pardoned for all our sins:

Do you never commit any sins since becoming a Christian? No doubt we all do, if only inadvertently.
Therefore the full and final pardon for all our sins, awaits the Return of Jesus, or maybe even until the end of the Millennium; at the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[David Kent]

I don’t know, providing any one specific name is only speculation, as multiple historical figures leading up to the temple destruction could fit, and as Paul doesn’t identify the man of sin or that which was restraining him during Paul’s time. Paul only mentions that the Thessalonians church already knew the restrainers identity.

No he didn't, he said they knew what the let and hindrance were.

 

[seventysevens]

World stage?

World stage means Publicly that the world knows him by HIS NAME
HIS NAME that identifies WHO HE IS- he has not yet been in the public scene but he will in the future

I agree that Jesus destroys the man of lawlessness as scripture states this.

But you seem to refuse the Literal scripture that states HOW Jesus destroys the man of lawlessness and the time frame because the scripture BOLDLY states the time frame is at Jesus return from heaven the time when all eyes see Jesus return from heaven that time is still in the future as in NOT happened yet

We have 2 instances of verifiable proof in scripture

1.) he was being restrained during the time of Paul:

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2:6 - English Standard Version

2.) the temple was standing when Paul wrote this (50-53 ad)

In order for one to state this is not yet fulfilled, they have to overcome the fact that Paul doesn’t mention the destruction of the ‘2nd’ temple followed by 2000 years, then a 3rd temple rebuilt. And they must also overcome that the man of sin must now be 2000 years old, as he existed during the time of Paul.

That is not proof of who the restrainer is and not proof of anything other than a restrainer existed then as he does now
you are missing the main point
we are living in a time where the climax of Jesus against satan is soon to happen - it is a spiritual war between satan and Jesus and we know that Jesus wins , but the battle has not been finished yet - the battle between Jesus and satan ,

I agree, hence I didn’t name a specific person, as Paul didn’t specifically name the man of sin. Now I can speculate, and match up what Paul says to a couple of different historical figures prior to the temple destruction, but it wouldn’t prove anything 100% as Paul did not specifically name the man of sin.

agree but if you study this and understand this is not about a king from one country wanting control over another country in the same way a guy with a gun wants to rob a bank or take your car from you -
it is about how God is deciding how he will destroy satan
The one who is being restrained is satan , not just some human , satan will be released onto the world scene and he does not care about anything except preventing people from accepting Jesus , he does not care about money , greed and that kind of thing , as the scripture says plainly when satan is released -as in being restricted from the throne of God where he accuses the brethren if sin - he is cast down to earth and knows he has only a short time - literally only a few years before he is cast into prison - that is why he is angry with wrath -

God also personally killed many people in the Old Testament by many different means.

Not relevant , might as well talk about how mankind was created

Scripture declares that Jesus will kill the man of lawlessness at HIS Return to earth from heaven

Including dispensationalism

I never said anything about dispensationalism -
it is a great error to deny that there is prophecy that will happen in the future - just because some people prefer to believe all things have happened in the past does not prove that is correct - without proof it means nothing

 

[jgr]

I don’t know, providing any one specific name is only speculation, as multiple historical figures leading up to the temple destruction could fit, and as Paul doesn’t identify the man of sin or that which was restraining him during Paul’s time. Paul only mentions that the Thessalonians church already knew the restrainers identity.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one; and its eventual apostasy. As seen in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2, Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom (347-407 AD), an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

Chrysostom was also affirming what Tertullian (160-220AD) had said over a century earlier regarding the identity of the restrainer/hinderer:

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."

 

[BABerean2]

Do you never commit any sins since becoming a Christian? No doubt we all do, if only inadvertently.
Therefore the full a final pardon for all our sins, awaits the Return of Jesus, or maybe even until the end of the Millennium; at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
(From the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

.

 

[claninja]

Do you never commit any sins since becoming a Christian? No doubt we all do, if only inadvertently.
Therefore the full a final pardon for all our sins, awaits the Return of Jesus, or maybe even until the end of the Millennium; at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Again, no one is claiming that we don’t sin. But the penalty for our sin has been paid by the blood of Christ: All sins past and all sins future for those in the body of Christ.

Christ appeared once to put away sin. His 2nd appearance is NOT to deal with sin, for it has already been dealt with, but for salvation

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
Hebrews 9:28 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:28 - English Standard Version

 

[claninja]

No he didn't, he said they knew what the let and hindrance were.

It states the man of sin was being restrained ‘now’ and that they knew what/who was restraining the man of sin.

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2:6 - English Standard Version

If he was being restrained ‘now’ during the time of Paul, then the man of sin existed during the time of Paul.

 

[seventysevens]

It states the man of sin was being restrained ‘now’ and that they knew what/who was restraining the man of sin.

And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:6 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2:6 - English Standard Version

If he was being restrained ‘now’ during the time of Paul, then the man of sin existed during the time of Paul.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

the One who is taken out of the way Is the same One who is doing the restraining - learn who it is that is being restrained - satan

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,


the lawless one is brought with activity of satan with ALL power and signs and wonders
in the Greek this speaks directly that the lawless one can perform acts that either are supernatural or are of such heavily satanic influence that it appears to be Godly powers - such can be calling lighting/fire down from heaven on command - whether it be actually literally fire come down from heaven on command or a illusion - that illusion would be of such magnitude that the people who see happen would not think it was a magician trick but a true act of God - which is the purpose of it - to cause people to believe he truly is God

accomplishing that it would not matter if it was a real power of God or not , because it is simply to cause people to believe he is God-
as such would cause people to accept him as God and worship him as such - if a person truly believes he really is God there would be no resistance from people to accepting the mark of his name or the number of his name - the path of least resistance

 

[jgr]

So this entire three chapter section (Romans 9-11) is about the fleshly nation of Israel, who were “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” That is, the people under discussion had not accepted the gospel, and were on their way to a lost eternity. But, even though tthey were “enemies,” yet they were still “beloved for the sake of the fathers.” And then comes a stunning declaration, which is the death forever for the claim that god has permanently rejected Israel. “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29)

We need to notice that the context of this declaration that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” is the fact that Paul’s “brethren,” his “countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites,” are “enemies” “concerning the gospel.” Yet they “are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were, and are, not bestowed upon Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God's calling was, and is, not directed to Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable.


Thus is "death forever to the claim" that an unbelieving nation of Israel, enemies of the gospel, can be the recipients of God's gifts and calling.

 

[Biblewriter]

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were, and are, not bestowed upon Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God's calling was, and is, not directed to Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable.


Thus is "death forever to the claim" that an unbelieving nation of Israel, enemies of the gospel, can be the recipients of God's gifts and calling.

All the reasoning in the world cannot get rid of an explicit statement of scripture.

 

[jgr]

All the reasoning in the world cannot get rid of an explicit statement of scripture.

The explicit statement of Scripture agrees with the explicit statements of Scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

The explicit statement of Scripture agrees with the explicit statements of Scripture.

Not even one of the scriptures you quoted even calls into question what I pointed out that the scriptures clearly say. Not even one of them either says nor even implies what you claimed they prove.

 

[jgr]

Not even one of the scriptures you quoted even calls into question what I pointed out that the scriptures clearly say. Not even one of them either says nor even implies what you claimed they prove.

Not one Scripture I cited includes enemies of the gospel. They are all exclusively for God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.

 

[ebedmelech]

It's only tough for those brainwashed into thinking the word 'generation' only can mean a people of origin. That's not how Jesus was applying "generation" in His Olivet discourse. He was speaking of a generation of time, not a specific people.

It's not simply "the word generation"...but the fact that Jesus said "THIS generation" He didn't say "that generation". Furthermore Jesus used the personal pronoun "you" so He's tell those whom He's speaking to, that they would see those things.

That's such a vain argument. If what you say were true then it would mean God's Holy Writ is meaningless for today. Now the children of darkness would like that idea very much.

No. God's word is never meaningless. 2 Thessalonians was written to the church at Thessalonica...it says so in the first verse of the first chapter. It's written for us...not to us...and we learn from it...even today because His word is sure!

Just the fact that Paul was speaking of the event of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church is enough to know those events were for the times future to that historical Church at Thessalonica. Why? Because Christ's 2nd coming has still yet to happen today!

You simply don't get what Paul is saying, so you think it's vain. Paul spoke of Jesus "coming" an the Lord did come except it was a judgement coming in which Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews scattered. Even Paul and Peter were martyred and both predicted their deaths. Paul knew to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and that's how he, Peter and many others were gathered to our Lord.

 

[Biblewriter]

Not one Scripture I cited includes enemies of the gospel. They are all exclusively for God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.

But the one I quoted explicitly states that some who are currently the enemies of the gospel are still beloved for the sake of their fathers, "for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." You have not quoted even one scripture that negates this, and you cannot. For there is no such scripture.

 

[jgr]

But the one I quoted explicitly states that some who are currently the enemies of the gospel are still beloved for the sake of their fathers, "for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." You have not quoted even one scripture that negates this, and you cannot. For there is no such scripture.

The election refers to those who have repented and believed and are joined to the elect remnant of the faithful and obedient -- the Church. They are beloved for the sake of the fathers. They are the recipients of God's irrevocable gifts and calling.

Those who have not and will not repent and believe, were, are, and will continue to be, enemies of the gospel. Under no possible conditions could they ever be recipients of God's irrevocable gifts and calling.

Letting Scripture interpret Scripture, you cannot quote any other scripture that supports your misinterpretation.

I've cited over a dozen supporting Scriptures.

You've cited a single misinterpretation.