What think ye of Ezekiel's Temple?

[BABerean2]

Anytime you take some verses from a chapter and disregard the relevant connecting scriptures - you will end up with a misunderstanding

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

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[seventysevens]

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining HIM NOW so that HE may be revealed in HIS time.

2 thessalonians 2:7 the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only HE who NOW restrains it will do so until HE is out of the way.




Scripture does not say who the restrainer was, only that it was a he. Scripture does not say who the man of lawlessness was, only that it was a man.

So there was a man, currently during the time of paul, that was restraining the man of lawlessness from setting himself up in the temple. Why would Paul's audience assume that this was about a temple 2000+ years later and not the one that was currently standing in their time? Why didn't paul clarify that it was about a temple 2000+ years later and not the one that was standing in their day?




I mean, I view scripture through a 'preterist' lens, so I agree that the man of lawlessness was destroyed at the coming of Christ when Jerusalem and temple were destoryed.

Today right THIS minute "mystery of lawlessness is already at work."
The mystery of lawlessness IS satans work - it is just another way of saying that satan is at work
THEE Man of Lawlessness has not yet come . that is why you should acknowledge the Entirety of what is said in 2Thess
That Man of Lawlessness will only be revealed AFTER the Power of God has stepped out of the way to allow the Power of satan to run his course - when Jesus destroys the Man of Lawlessness he will cast him into the lake of fire and then Jesus will reign on earth

It boldly states that GOD is sending the Man of Lawlessness and that Man will be destroyed AFTER Jesus returns to earth because He has not yet come - THAT Man of Lawlessness IS the same man that is the Beast in Revelation

IF that man of Lawlessness had been named it would not be a Mystery
NO Human man can Restrain satan , only the Holy Spirit can - man is told to flee or resist the temptation but man as mortal cannot hold back a supernatural force as satan

 

[claninja]

Today right THIS minute "mystery of lawlessness is already at work."

Obviously the mystery of iniquity is still at work today, in this world. We live in a sinful world. The mystery of sin itself, is exactly that, a mystery. Why God allows sin to exist, why he allowed it to enter the world. The only guess that I can make is that even sin has a part to play in God's unrevealed divine will, and that it will play a part in ultimately glorifying God.

However, the mystery of lawlessness is not the man of lawlessness.

The mystery of lawlessness IS satans work - it is just another way of saying that satan is at work

The mystery of lawlessness/iniquity/sin is exactly what it says it is: a mystery.

THEE Man of Lawlessness has not yet come .

The man of lawlessness existed in the time of Paul

2 thessalonians 2:6 you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

That Man of Lawlessness will only be revealed AFTER the Power of God has stepped out of the way to allow the Power of satan to run his course

scripture does not say satan was now being restrained before he would enter a human and turn him into the man of sin, it says the man of sin was now being restrained.

Paul does not explain in this letter what/who is doing the restraining. He only states that he told them and that they knew what/who was doing the restraining. And it/he was restraining the man of lawless in the time of Paul.

2 thessalonians 2:5-6 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And YOU KNOW what is restraining him NOW so that he may be revealed in his time

It boldly states that GOD is sending the Man of Lawlessness

Exactly which verse in 2 thessalonians 2 boldly states that God is sending the man of lawlessness?

2 thessalonians 2:7 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

However, it does say God sends a delusion so that they will be believe what is false, IN ORDER that they may be condemned.

2 thessalonians 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, IN ORDER that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness

Now why would God send a delusion, almost forcing those to believe what is false? In order to condemn them. But is it fair for God to that? How could God then find fault?

Romans 9:19-23
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Who are the vessels prepared for destruction? unbelieving Israel, which was about the be destroyed.

Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,

 

[claninja]

You have obviously made up your mind, you don't want a new Temple; even if God does!

Please provide scripture that under the new covenant, "God wants" a "3rd or new" physical earthly temple building.

While I wait for that, Here is scripture that God already built the new temple and dwells in it:

Jesus built the new temple:
John 2:19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”
Jesus is the chief cornerstone of the new temple:
Ephesians 2:19-20 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner-[stone],
Jesus is currently in heaven as a king-priest
Hebrews 8:1 And the sum concerning the things spoken of [is]: we have such a chief priest, who did sit down at the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens,
Hebrews 7:21 and he with an oath through Him who is saying unto him, ‘The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest — to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;’)
Revelation 1:5 from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth
Thus fulfilling:
Zechariah 6:12-13 ‘Behold, a man whose name is the Branch, and He will branch out from His place and build the temple of the LORD. Yea, he doth build the temple of Jehovah, And he doth bear away honour, And he hath sat and ruled on His throne, And hath been a priest on His throne, And a counsel of peace is between both



Ephesians 2:21-22 in whom all the building fitly framed together doth increase to an holy sanctuary in the Lord, in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

 

[David Kent]

2 thessalonians 2:6 And you know what is restraining HIM NOW so that HE may be revealed in HIS time.

2 thessalonians 2:7 the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only HE who NOW restrains it will do so until HE is out of the way.




Scripture does not say who the restrainer was, only that it was a he. Scripture does not say who the man of lawlessness was, only that it was a man.

So there was a man, currently during the time of paul, that was restraining the man of lawlessness from setting himself up in the temple. Why would Paul's audience assume that this was about a temple 2000+ years later and not the one that was currently standing in their time? Why didn't paul clarify that it was about a temple 2000+ years later and not the one that was standing in their day?

I mean, I view scripture through a 'preterist' lens, so I agree that the man of lawlessness was destroyed at the coming of Christ when Jerusalem and temple were destoryed.

And who was he?

 

[keras]

Please provide scripture that under the new covenant, "God wants" a "3rd or new" physical earthly temple building.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 are perfectly plain; there WILL be a new Temple in Jerusalem. It is part of God's plan, integral to how the last days will be fulfilled.

I say again: We Christians are the spiritual Temple of God during this Church age. This does not preclude another Temple being built in Jerusalem. Zechariah 6:15

 

[keras]

I did not address Hebrews 8:10-12 by itself, because you have ripped those two verses out of their context to make your doctrine work.

It is you who 'rips' out Hebrews 8:10-12, because they prove you wrong. They await fulfilment.

If you think your sin debt has not been fulfilled yet, you need to read the New Testament again.

Scripture literally disagrees with you:

We are all sinners, none are righteous..... and if we claim to be without sin, we are self deceived and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, He will forgive them and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. If we say we have committed no sin, then we make Jesus out to be a liar and His Word has no place in us. 1 John 1:8-10
As we are still living in a sinful society, we must continually ask for forgiveness. only after the Millennium, will this not be necessary. Until then, we must be humble and continue to ask in faith for God's mercy.

 

[seventysevens]

Obviously the mystery of iniquity is still at work today, in this world. We live in a sinful world. The mystery of sin itself, is exactly that, a mystery. Why God allows sin to exist, why he allowed it to enter the world. The only guess that I can make is that even sin has a part to play in God's unrevealed divine will, and that it will play a part in ultimately glorifying God.

However, the mystery of lawlessness is not the man of lawlessness.



The mystery of lawlessness/iniquity/sin is exactly what it says it is: a mystery.



The man of lawlessness existed in the time of Paul

2 thessalonians 2:6 you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.




scripture does not say satan was now being restrained before he would enter a human and turn him into the man of sin, it says the man of sin was now being restrained.

Paul does not explain in this letter what/who is doing the restraining. He only states that he told them and that they knew what/who was doing the restraining. And it/he was restraining the man of lawless in the time of Paul.

2 thessalonians 2:5-6 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And YOU KNOW what is restraining him NOW so that he may be revealed in his time



Exactly which verse in 2 thessalonians 2 boldly states that God is sending the man of lawlessness?

2 thessalonians 2:7 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,

However, it does say God sends a delusion so that they will be believe what is false, IN ORDER that they may be condemned.

2 thessalonians 2:11-12 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, IN ORDER that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness

Now why would God send a delusion, almost forcing those to believe what is false? In order to condemn them. But is it fair for God to that? How could God then find fault?

Romans 9:19-23
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Who are the vessels prepared for destruction? unbelieving Israel, which was about the be destroyed.

Romans 9:27-28 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israelc be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29And as Isaiah predicted,

Because of the depth of this , I will have to take it a little bit at a time , I don't have enough time to explain it all in one post so it will take probably take several posts to explain it
On thing you need to accept is that it is not relevant that there have been ruthless rulers in the past ,just as Jesus said

"4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many."

Christ is a title as in Messiah / the chosen one/ the Anointed One - many will come and say they are God , or demand people bow down and worship them as God- even the Pharaohs considered them self to be God , every evil ruler would hold himself up high and mighty considering them selves as God to everyone they ruled over just as he did with Moses which led to the supernatural events of the plagues up to and including the killing of the Pharaohs young son along with the other people that were killed during that plague

everyone of the evil rulers were false gods , false messiahs , false christs , they all could be considered antichrists , but not Thee antichrist that is Thee Man of Sin/man of lawlessness
it does not matter how many there were in the past because they were not the one that 2Thess2 speaks of

"8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

the word consume is actually "ἀνελεῖ " which means to murder or take the life of -

It plainly says that it is Jesus himself that will take the life of the Man of Lawlessness / Man of Sin with the breath of HIS mouth at HIS coming - It means it is Jesus that kills that Man of Lawlessness AT Jesus Return to earth and that has not yet happened

10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Because the people refused to love the truth that which IS Jesus and they chose to live in sin , living in a continual unrepentant condition , and just as God/Jesus knew Judas would betray Him and God knows everyone's heart HE knows who will not repent

will continue when I have more time

 

[BABerean2]

It is you who 'rips' out Hebrews 8:10-12, because they prove you wrong. They await fulfilment.

The New Covenant: Bob George

...............................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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[ebedmelech]

That's not what our Lord Jesus said. He connected the generation that would see those things with the event of His 2nd coming, and that event is... still future to us today.

Pretty tough to make a stand like that when EVERY time Jesus said "this generation" before that, it represented the very people He was speaking to! Why would it suddenly mean the future.

Likewise in 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul revealed the Antichrist and apostasy must occur prior to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church, and that has not happened yet either. Those on your theory definitely are guilty of taking both Jesus and Paul out of context in those Scriptures, just so they can keep their own tradition of men.

Actually I hold that it's you that's out of context. 2 Thessalonians was written to the church at Thessalonica. Why would Paul inform them about something they wouldn't see happen??? He clearly says the mystery was ALREADY at work. Those believers were seeing things that led them to seek instruction from the apostle Paul...and he gave told them. We Christians today should see it as guidance in how we are to behave, because the next coming of Christ is the end!

 

[keras]

I take Communion, too BaB.
But I understand from the plain Words of scripture, that the New Covenant is a Promise, yet to be fully implemented. What is described in Hebrews 8:10-12 simply has not happened yet, so please cease your assertions that they have.
Your constant postings of videos and heavy print, is not appreciated.

 

[keras]

because the next coming of Christ is the end!

So you think there is nothing dramatic to happen before Jesus Returns?
Why do you spend time here, with that belief?

 

[ebedmelech]

So you think there is nothing dramatic to happen before Jesus Returns?
Why do you spend time here, with that belief?

Read what I said again Keras, it says nothing about events to come. It simply says the next time Christ comes...it's the end.

That s a fact!

 

[keras]

Read what I said again Keras, it says nothing about events to come. It simply says the next time Christ comes...it's the end.

Actually it's a new beginning!

 

[BABerean2]

Actually it's a new beginning!

When Christ returns "in flaming fire" it is the end of this rotten, sin-cursed world, and the beginning of the New Heavens and the New Earth.


2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.



2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

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[claninja]

And who was he?

I don’t know, providing any one specific name is only speculation, as multiple historical figures leading up to the temple destruction could fit, and as Paul doesn’t identify the man of sin or that which was restraining him during Paul’s time. Paul only mentions that the Thessalonians church already knew the restrainers identity.

 

[claninja]

2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 are perfectly plain; there WILL be a new Temple in Jerusalem. It is part of God's plan, integral to how the last days will be fulfilled.

You originally stated ‘God wants’ an earthly physical temple building, so I asked for you to provide scripture showing God wants this. The scripture you provided does not show that God ‘wants’ an earthly temple building.

In fact, assuming this scripture is about a literal earthly temple building, God, throughout the Old Testament, allows the temple to be desecrated, when he is angry with his chosen people.

I say again: We Christians are the spiritual Temple of God during this Church age. This does not preclude another Temple being built in Jerusalem. Zechariah 6:15

The body of Christ will come to an end?

Zechariah 6 is already fulfilled. Christ built the temple and he now sits as a king priest after the order of Melchizedek. There is ample New Testament support for this.

 

[claninja]

We are all sinners, none are righteous..... and if we claim to be without sin, we are self deceived and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, He will forgive them and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. If we say we have committed no sin, then we make Jesus out to be a liar and His Word has no place in us. 1

Who here claimed to be without sin?

Additionally, a little confused by your belief. Which is it keras? How can we, as you say, not yet be pardoned for all our sins:

Its so obvious that we have not yet received the pardon for all our sins.

And yet be forgiven and cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, as you say?

But if we confess our sins, He will forgive them and cleanse us of all unrighteousness

 

[Davy]

Pretty tough to make a stand like that when EVERY time Jesus said "this generation" before that, it represented the very people He was speaking to! Why would it suddenly mean the future.

It's only tough for those brainwashed into thinking the word 'generation' only can mean a people of origin. That's not how Jesus was applying "generation" in His Olivet discourse. He was speaking of a generation of time, not a specific people.

Actually I hold that it's you that's out of context. 2 Thessalonians was written to the church at Thessalonica. Why would Paul inform them about something they wouldn't see happen??? He clearly says the mystery was ALREADY at work. Those believers were seeing things that led them to seek instruction from the apostle Paul...and he gave told them. We Christians today should see it as guidance in how we are to behave, because the next coming of Christ is the end!

That's such a vain argument. If what you say were true then it would mean God's Holy Writ is meaningless for today. Now the children of darkness would like that idea very much.

Just the fact that Paul was speaking of the event of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church is enough to know those events were for the times future to that historical Church at Thessalonica. Why? Because Christ's 2nd coming has still yet to happen today!

 

[claninja]

It's only tough for those brainwashed into thinking the word 'generation' only can mean a people of origin.

ok then.....


Maybe instead of calling people 'brainwashed' you could provide evidence for why 'this generation' means what you say it does. For example, is there any other scripture that uses generation or this generation in the way that you are interpreting it? After all debates and discussions are typically more fruitful when evidence is produced instead of name calling.

That's not how Jesus was applying "generation" in His Olivet discourse. He was speaking of a generation of time, not a specific people.

So even though jesus explicitly said 'you' many times to the disciples when he gave the olivet discourse, it wasn't really about them, it was about a generation 2000+ years later?

1.) False Messiahs
Matthew 24:4,23,25,26 Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives YOU. At that time, if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. See, I have told YOU in advance. So if they tell YOU, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it

2.) Wars and rumors of wars
YOU will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen

3.) persecution
Matthew 24:9 Then they will hand YOU over to be persecuted and killed, and YOU will be hated by all nations on account of My name

4.) Abomination of Desolation
Matthew 24:15 So when YOU see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation

5.) fleeing Jerusalem's destruction
matthew 24:20 Pray that YOUR flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath

6.) All these things
Matthew 24:33 also, when YOU see all these things, YOU know that He isd near, right at the door.


Did the disciples generation not experience anything of the olivet discourse?

That's such a vain argument.

An important part of textual criticism is audience relevance, so no it is not a vain argument.

If what you say were true then it would mean God's Holy Writ is meaningless for today.

The flood didn't happen in our generation. It happened in noah's. Does that mean scripture is now useless for us today?