What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[concretecamper]

There is another tone of voice which is a possible understanding of this verse, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.'" It could have been more of a joking/sarcastic tone, like saying "Woman, take it easy on me, my time is coming soon enough! (wink, wink)"

such is the problem with personal interpretations.

 

[concretecamper]

it wasnt his time.
she ignored that
in doing so went against God.
it was sin.

imagine if she had waited for Gods timing. we will never know, much like any act of disobedience on our part God uses it for His purposes but like us Mary ignored God, sad but true. perhaps she was an overbearing mother, sounds like its possible from these verses. If she was a mother then she sinned...no mother is perfect

thank you for you novice non Authoritative interpretation.

 

[WanderedHome]

it wasnt his time.
she ignored that
in doing so went against God.
it was sin.

imagine if she had waited for Gods timing. we will never know, much like any act of disobedience on our part God uses it for His purposes but like us Mary ignored God, sad but true. perhaps she was an overbearing mother, sounds like its possible from these verses. If she was a mother then she sinned...no mother is perfect

just as a lack of tone of voice or body language leads to big misunderstandings in an internet forum, so also it is a problem in reading Scripture.

 

[WanderedHome]

Thanks for your reply, WH.


"Co" means "joint."

For example,
Definition of co-owner
: a person who owns something along with one or more others

(merriam-webster.com)

yes, I know what "co-" means. thanks.

 

[StillGods]

just as a lack of tone of voice or body language leads to big misunderstandings in an internet forum, so also it is a problem in reading Scripture.

true. at least the text is there to read and ponder on tones of voice with this one. Jesus obviously said it wasnt His time, and Mary ignored that.
I have never read a verse saying Mary was made sinless at conception.

 

[WanderedHome]

such is the problem with personal interpretations.

Exactly. Which is why we cannot say this verse is proof of sin.

 

[Albion]

yes, I know what "co-" means. thanks.

It wasn't an insult. When you wrote this:

"I might say that "co-redeemer" doesn't mean Redeemer in the fullest sense of the word, as Christ is Redeemer, but that our salvtion is a cooperation between God and Man."

It looked like you were saying something else.

 

[StillGods]

thank you for you novice non Authoritative interpretation.

you're welcome

 

[StillGods]

Exactly. Which is why we cannot say this verse is proof of sin.

or we can.

 

[WanderedHome]

I have never read a verse saying Mary was made sinless at conception.

I said this back in #73:
"Therefore, there is not a unanimous opinion in the Orthodox East on whether Mary sinned, which is why I have tried to avoid making any direct statements about that. I have only tried to challenge any absolute claims that she did sin."

 

[StillGods]

I said this back in #73:
"Therefore, there is not a unanimous opinion in the Orthodox East on whether Mary sinned, which is why I have tried to avoid making any direct statements about that. I have only tried to challenge any absolute claims that she did sin."

why does it matter that she sinned? I dont see why Mary has been made into something she wasnt. unless it is to distract from Jesus Christ, then it makes sense to try and make her into something she wasnt.

 

[WanderedHome]

It wasn't an insult. When you wrote this:

"I might say that "co-redeemer" doesn't mean Redeemer in the fullest sense of the word, as Christ is Redeemer, but that our salvation is a cooperation between God and Man."

It looked like you were saying something else.

haha, oh. I mean, I was just trying to offer some explanation of what it might be, not that this "co-redemptrix" view is right.

 

[thecolorsblend]

it wasnt his time.
she ignored that
in doing so went against God.
it was sin.

imagine if she had waited for Gods timing. we will never know, much like any act of disobedience on our part God uses it for His purposes but like us Mary ignored God, sad but true. perhaps she was an overbearing mother, sounds like its possible from these verses. If she was a mother then she sinned...no mother is perfect

...

I really don't think you're considering the full implications of what you're saying up there.

 

[WanderedHome]

why does it matter that she sinned? I dont see why Mary has been made into something she wasnt. unless it is to distract from Jesus Christ, then it makes sense to try and make her into something she wasn't.

It doesn't matter. I was only defending her since, just as it cannot be proved she never sinned, it cannot be proved she did either. Maybe you all don't mean it this way, but to Orthodox and Catholics, Protestants often come across as very disrespectful and irreverent when it comes to Mary. We see her as our mother and it makes us want to defend her like our own biological mothers.

 

[StillGods]

...

I really don't think you're considering the full implications of what you're saying up there.

that Mary pushed Gods hand?

 

[StillGods]

It doesn't matter. I was only defending her since, just as it cannot be proved she never sinned, it cannot be proved she did either. Maybe you all don't mean it this way, but to Orthodox and Catholics, Protestants often come across as very disrespectful and irreverent when it comes to Mary. We see her as our mother and it makes us want to defend her like our own biological mothers.

why does she need defending if she is just like us. she was obviously humble for God to use her but she would probably be appalled that she is prayed to rather than her son.

maybe it is that we see the glory/honour given to Mary as disrespectful to Jesus Christ who should be the one given all glory and honour no other.

 

[thecolorsblend]

it wasnt his time.
she ignored that
in doing so went against God.
it was sin.

imagine if she had waited for Gods timing. we will never know, much like any act of disobedience on our part God uses it for His purposes but like us Mary ignored God, sad but true. perhaps she was an overbearing mother, sounds like its possible from these verses. If she was a mother then she sinned...no mother is perfect

...

I really don't think you're considering the full implications of what you're saying up there.

that Mary pushed Gods hand?

I guess there's that too. I don't think man can force God's hand on anything but that's the beside the point, I suppose.

The point is that if Our Lady sinned by going against God's plan (as is your claim), please show me in a straight line how Our Lord didn't also sin by willingly going against God's plan Himself. I mean, I assume you believe in Our Lord's sinlessness. That's uncontested doctrine virtually everywhere in mainstream Christianity. So I'm curious how you reconcile His actions there.

Did He also sin in doing what He did? If yes, how can He be Christ? If no, how can you say Our Lady sinned?

 

[WanderedHome]

why does she need defending if she is just like us. she was obviously humble for God to use her but she would probably be appalled that she is prayed to rather than her son.

So, if you went around talking about how great your mother was and how much you loved her, and someone called you an idiot for thinking so highly of her, that wouldn't bother you?
And no, I don't think she would be appalled. Prayer is not always worship, but is simply interceding for someone or asking someone for their prayers. Are you appalled when your best friend asks you to pray for them about something or do you feel honored and happy to do it?

 

[StillGods]

I guess there's that too. I don't think man can force God's hand on anything but that's the beside the point, I suppose.

The point is that if Our Lady sinned by going against God's plan (as is your claim), please show me in a straight line how Our Lord didn't also sin by presumably also going against God's plan. I assume you believe in Our Lord's sinlessness so I'm curious how you reconcile His actions there.

that is a good question. I respect a good question. I will ponder on that one.
Because I do see Him as the spotless Lamb of God. It is 5.51am here so yawn, I must get a few hours sleep but will ponder on that.

 

[WanderedHome]

The point is that if Our Lady sinned by going against God's plan (as is your claim), please show me in a straight line how Our Lord didn't also sin by willingly going against God's plan Himself. I mean, I assume you believe in Our Lord's sinlessness. That's uncontested doctrine virtually everywhere in mainstream Christianity. So I'm curious how you reconcile His actions there.

Good point. Doesn't that mean our Lord is just a pushover? easily manipulated by fear of social disapproval?