What texts prove that Mary was a sinner?

[garee]

Initially I have to say, the Bible doesn't always record ones specific sins. As an extreme example, one might ask, Q) Where does the Bible say Epaphroditus sinned?

But I get that most peoples answers here are just by fact of pointing out Mary is a human. And this is not a cop out.

The only sinless human-God [incarnated] was Jesus - Hebrews 4:15... let alone the only human-God (Luke 1:35 points out that "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.", i.e., that is, he is the Son of God (in divine essence with the Father) because of God's part, not Mary's, that he is divine. Matt goes down the path of saying he is "of the Holy Spirit" and that Joseph had no biological contribution (1:16 even goes out of it's way to make Joseph not the "father of" Jesus, but the "husband of" Mary).

But then there are some specific things written concerning Mary to further go more particularly down this path:

Luke 2:35, 1:47ff - showing her being convicted by the need to respond to the gospel/Christ (similar to other hearts being convicted) and showing her express her God as her Saviour and seeing herself completely under his mercy.

And find one example in the NT where an Apostle pointed to her as one to whom we should pray, a dead human (therefore, since also only Jesus has resurrected again - 1Cor 15 and the rest of us wait for his return to receive our new bodies - only Jesus was not under the power of sin/death. As such, she was a sinner). If Jesus never rose again, we have no reason to hope in him - 1Cor 15. And if she didn't arise in her new body, which she didn't because only one man did until the time for the rest of us (bodily), she is no source of perfection.

The bible does not teach we should pray to dead humans. That kind of idea is necromancy .We pray to eternal God .He is not a man and neither is there any fleshly mediator as a infallible umpire that stands between God not seen and man seen . One is our Father as lord in heaven.

 

[prodromos]

The bible does not teach we should pray to dead humans.

Christ has destroyed death. Whoever is in Christ has entered into life itself.

 

[garee]

Christ has destroyed death. Whoever is in Christ has entered into life itself.

Yes they have entered as sons of God. . believers .Christians are informed that we are not what we will be . No man has received the promise of a new incorruptible body. (Hebrews 11:39) It as the bride of Christ the church the new creation will be neither male nor female. . Jew or Gentile .As new creatures we know no man after the corrupted flesh of mankind a dying creation..

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

No communing with dead saints or what some have name saints "inspired from earth" . The Bible calls them workers with familiar spirits . And warns us to rather seek the living God. . our one Holy Father the Holy See in heaven for the living to those dead in their trespasses and sin .Our father not seen is the source of light unto our feet a lamp unto our path.

The word seek (Hebrew necromancy) using both sides of the definition . (1) Seek as toward or God or (2) seek after the dead familiar spirits ? Each person must chose who and what they will serve .In that way no man can seek after two teaching good Masters that work from within .

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[concretecamper]

Wow, so I guess physical death undoes the effect of Baptism. As St Paul says, Batism incorporates us into the Body of Christ.

Can someone show us all where physical death separates us from the Body of Christ? Don't bother searching scripture, I already know that it doesn't.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wow, so I guess physical death undoes the effect of Baptism. As St Paul says, Batism incorporates us into the Body of Christ.

Can someone show us all where physical death separates us from the Body of Christ? Don't bother searching scripture, I already know that it doesn't.

In a certain sense, one can say that Purgatory (which is, as you know, a unique doctrine of your denomination) does separate one from the Body of Christ after death, unless you believe that there is the communion of the saints in Purgatory.

 

[Cis.jd]

In a certain sense, one can say that Purgatory (which is, as you know, a unique doctrine of your denomination) does separate one from the Body of Christ after death, unless you believe that there is the communion of the saints in Purgatory.

purgatory is temporary

 

[garee]

Wow, so I guess physical death undoes the effect of Baptism. As St Paul says, Batism incorporates us into the Body of Christ.

Can someone show us all where physical death separates us from the Body of Christ? Don't bother searching scripture, I already know that it doesn't.

Not from the body of Christ but clearly from these earthen bodies of death.

For a unbeliever no faith (not little none) coming from all things written in the law and the prophets .(sola scriptura) Dead is dead never rising to new life and a new body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[concretecamper]

In a certain sense, one can say that Purgatory (which is, as you know, a unique doctrine of your denomination) does separate one from the Body of Christ after death

nonsense. Those in Purgatory are still part of His Body The Church.

unless you believe that there is the communion of the saints in Purgatory.

of course they are

 

[concretecamper]

Not from the body of Christ but clearly from these earthen bodies of death.

thank you for confirming my point.

 

[bbbbbbb]

purgatory is temporary

Quite true, according to Catholic theology. It is, however, a separation of the soul from the communion of the saints enjoyed in heaven after death.

 

[bbbbbbb]

nonsense. Those in Purgatory are still part of His Body The Church.
of course they are

What, then, do you understand the difference between Purgatory and Heaven to be?

 

[concretecamper]

do you understand the difference between Purgatory and Heaven to be?

is there a question here?

 

[concretecamper]

Quite true, according to Catholic theology. It is, however, a separation of the soul from the communion of the saints enjoyed in heaven after death.

false

 

[bbbbbbb]

is there a question here?

Yes.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes.

please state it in a complete sentence

 

[bbbbbbb]

What do you understand the difference between Purgatory and Heaven to be?

 

[concretecamper]

Heaven: 1 Cor 2:9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard: neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

Purgatory: 1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.

 

[garee]

nonsense. Those in Purgatory are still part of His Body The Church.
of course they are

The doctrine of purgatory simply does despite to the grace of God.

Roman Catholics with Eastern Orothdox put aside their differences in order to estblish thei doctrine of men . Not a doctrine of God that falls like rain or inspired from above.

What, then, do you understand the difference between Purgatory and Heaven to be?

The difference is heaven is eternal the other a wonder? Purgatory as a wonder can only causes doubt and not faith( belief.) Purgatory provides no time element it remains un-knowable.

Its the result of sects like the Roman Catholic sect and the Greek Orthodox sect who must serve a law of the fathers. A hierarchy of venerable men that lord it over the faith of the non-venerable pew sitters.

They teach according to their own law of the fathers (oral tradition of men) that this Queen entity that they have named Mary alone received the fullness of Christ's grace according to His labor of love or called work of His faith. While every other person receives a unknown remnant of grace. And they must continually add there own sufferings to the unknown amount and even after they take their last breath, they must continue to suffer .Therefore in the end (no end) never coming to faith the fullness of grace..

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Labor of love for labor of love.

 

[Dan Perez]

Myself, I can only think of "all have sinned" text. Jesus was the only exception that I know of.

Hi and in Luke 1:47 we read , And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR !!

The Greek word MY / MOV is in the Greek GENITIVE CASE , indicates POSSESSION of God !!

The Greek word SAVIOUR / SOTER is in the the DATIVE CASE means that the INDERCT OBJECT , means that God is involved as Mary's SAVIOUR !

Which means that MARY needs to be saved and was a SINNER !!

dan p

 

[concretecamper]

Which means that MARY needs to be saved

I dont think any Christian would object to that statement.

Nothing new here.....