What "Spirit" for Paul is a far greater glory than the "letters etched in stone"?

[oikonomia]

Testimony is spirit, whether for the good or whether for the evil, and the Testimony of the Master is Spirit, (John 6:63), and therefore to walk in and according to the Spirit in this sense, according to Paul's discourse herein, is to walk in and according to the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts. And those who do not are not his according to final statement in the portion quoted above.

The testimony also reaches the body. Otherwise Paul would not say that Christ would be magnified in his body.

According to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I will be put to shame, but with all boldness, as always, even now Christ will be magnified in my body, whether through life or through death. (Phil. 1;20)

Romans 8:10-14 KJV

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

So you yourself have found that Paul says that "we" including himself are NOT debtors to the flesh.
So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; (Rom. 8:12 Recovery Version)

So when you call to my attention verse 14 - "but I am fleshy, sold under sin " saying Paul and I are debtors,
you have to also believe 8:12 - we are debtors not to the flesh

How do we mortify or put to death the deeds of the body, and mortify our members upon(concerning) the earth? (Col 3:1-10). Paul tells you in one of the verses you just quoted:

All that Christ is and has accomplished in included in the Spirit.
That Spirit contains the killing power. The Spirit contains the resurrection power too.
The way to terminate the body of sin is by availing ourselves of ALL that the Spirit has and can do.

This is why Paul refers to the bountiful supply of the Spirit in Philippians 1:19
For I know that for me this will turn out to salvation through your petition
and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, (RcV)

In the bountiful all-inclisive supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ are all His attainments and accomplishments.
So it is "by the Spirit" the Christians can put to death the practices of the fallen sin filled body.

but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
So it is by the Spirit the promises of Roman 6 can become realized and enjoyed.

Can you hear what this says? He thanks Elohim because it is through the Testimony of the Master which teaches us how to walk pleasing unto the Father because his Testimony expounds the Torah, Prophets, and Writings for us in the new supernal Way that is pleasing to the Father. Therefore Paul then says in the above statement that he serves both the Torah of Elohim and the Torah concerning sin: but it is with the mind that he serves the Torah of Elohim, and with the flesh the Torah of sin, to put to death and mortify the deeds of the body and the members upon the earth which means concerning the things of below.

The word "BUT" shows one is verses the other.
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin. (7:23b)

He is reviewing one last time the delimma between wanting with his mind to serve the spiritual, holy, righteous and good law of God.
BUT . . . BUT . . . the sin infested fallen body of death makes him serve "the law of SIN"

If you are a praying man I think you should pray over each one of these sentences you have so carefully
copied out.

He is not saying in a positive way " I serve the Torah of Elohim and the Torah concerning sin.
He is saying with his mind he agrees with the Torah given to Moses. But he cannot because the law of sin in his flesh drags him
away to serve SIN.

This dilimma caused him to have self condemnation to the point of feeling completely wretched.
Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death? (7:24)

WHO is the Person who can deliver him from this tragedy ? It is Christ Jesus.
Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! (7:24b,25a)

Now he is ready to tell us all about this WHO who is the Spirit of God / the Spirit of Christ / and Christ Himself indwelling
those who received the Lord Jesus.

There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:1,2)

Now then no condemnation is verses "Wretched man that I am."

And this freedom, this liberty is enjoyed only as the believers learns to set the mind on the regenerated human spirit where
the Spirit of God aka Spirit of Christ aka Christ lives within him.

. . . if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
But if Christ is in you, . . .

We are carnal or natural, sold under sin, and yet we are purchased by the Master: therefore, indeed, we are debtors, and our debt is to no more walk according to the flesh and the natural mind of the natural man which cannot please Elohim because it cannot be subject to His Torah because it cannot understand His Torah.

If somehow you mean what is clearly written about us being no more debtors to the flesh, then I agree.
If you mean to what I have explain makes the Christian not responsible to the Lord you have misrepresented my explanations.

This section of Romans is now gone beyond Redemption or purchase to Sanctification.
The turning point between the two is really in Romans 5:10.

For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled, (Rom. 5:10)

There are two steps here:
1.) reconciled to God through His Son's redemptive death.
2.) saved in the whole realm of His life.

Now Paul is moving from Justification, Reconciliation to Sanctification.
The resurrection life of Christ is imparted into those whom He has purchased with His blood.
And in the whole realm of divine life in them they are being "organically" saved. And that "much more."

The first part we can call "Judicial Redemption."
The second part we can call "Organic Salvation."

were reconciled [Judicial Redemption] to God through the death of His Son,
much more we will be saved in His life [Organic salvation of Sanctification] , having been reconciled, (Rom. 5:10)

To be fair, Paul does talk about the redemption of the body meaning transfiguration in 8:23
we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan in ourselves,
eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our body.

And what changes that situation? Repentance, turning our hearts to the Father, and hearing and heeding and walking in the Testimony of His Son whom He sent: for the Son expounds the Torah in his Testimony freely given as a gift offering in the Gospel accounts, the gift offering of Elohim, the Grace of Elohim, which Testimony cost him his life, body, soul, and blood, which has purchased us.

You said above that the failure to follow the Torah Elohim was the failure to UNDERSTAND it.
No, Paul understood "You shall not covet" quite well.

There is another evil force personified living in the fallen body which purposely drags the law keeper away to obey Sin.
What is needed is a STRONGER Person. And that Person is the indwelling Christ.
The last Adam became a divine life giving Spirit.

the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

Why don't you sing along about this wonderul gospel with me?

Your doctrine overthrows this entire teaching and sidelines your responsibility to the Master to walk in his Testimony as Paul teaches herein, for testimony is spirit and the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts is Spirit, (again, John 6:63).

No I don't do any such thing.
I think you are wanting to keep the fading glory of the old covenant.
But it is a fading glory. And the new covenant ministry subsists, abounds, and remains in surpassing glory.

For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory.
For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory.
For if that which was being done away with was through glory, much more that which remains is in glory. (2 Cor. 3:9-11)

Your view of the Torah is a direct result of misunderstanding these things because you sideline the Torah when in fact Paul teaches that it is not sidelined or abolished but rather now correctly interpreted by the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts.

The view of Yahweh Himself was that He would enact a new covenant.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second.
For finding fault with them He says, “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, and I will consummate a new covenant upon the house of Israel and upon the house of Judah,

Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

For this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws into their mind, and on their hearts I will inscribe them; and I will be God to them, and they will be a people to Me. (Heb. 8:8-10 compare Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Jehovah God said He would consummate a new covenant to replace the old one.
Furthermore Jesus the Son of God said the kingdom of God would be taken FROM Israel and given to a nations producing the fruits that God sought. At least temporarily this has been done from the rejection of the Messiah by the Jewish nation.

Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation producing its fruit. (Matt. 21:43)

Now it is to the church to walk by the indwelling Spirit of Christ and produce the fruits God seeks.
So the believers in Christ must overcome to let the Spirit of the Lord within them lead to freedom and fruits of righteousness.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Cor. 3:17)

I must stop here for tonight.

 

[daq]

Why don't you sing along about this wonderul gospel with me?

Because it is not the same Gospel as Mosheh, Yohanne, Meshiah, Yakob, Yhudah, Peter, and Paul preached: and they all gave me stern warnings about that in multiple places.

 

[oikonomia]

Because it is not the same Gospel as Mosheh, Yohanne, Meshiah, Yakob, Yhudah, Peter, and Paul preached: and they all gave me stern warnings about that in multiple places.

Hmmm. Daq, you refer to "the Master" much. This is a bit curious to me.
When, may I ask, was the last time you told Jesus that you loved Him?
Something like this -
"O Lord Jesus my Master, I just LOVE You Jesus Master and Lord. I just LOVE You Lord Jesus."

Here is where the Old Testament can come in to help the Christian much.
For example calling on the Lord Jesus like this "O Lord Jesus, I love You. I just love You Lord."
Like hundreds of times the Psalmist calls "O Lord" in or refers to calling on the name of God, so
we can get to know intimately the Spirit of Christ by loving Him.

Now, here the Psalm 119 can help the new covenant believer to get to know more
intimately this God who has now become incarnated and become "a life giving Spirit."

You call the Lord the Master. And so He is the Master. But in Gospel
He successively upgraded. so to speak, the disciples from slaves to friends to brothers.

Slaves to Master relationship - Truly, truly, I say to you, A slave is not greater than his master, (John 13:16a)

Friends to Friend relationship - No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all the things which I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15;15)

Brothers to Brother relationship - Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17)

Do you see this? Sure, the Lord Jesus is Lord,Teacher and even Master. But He desires so intimate a life relationship.
That we would see we are His friends and even more so His brothers. Now His God is our God and His Father is our
der "Abba Father".

So to get to know the Spirit of Christ aka Christ, we should tell Him often that we love Him. To love Him
is really to TURN our heart to Him. That is TURN our heart to a living PERSON- the dear Lord Jesus.

 

[oikonomia]

For any who do not charge me with preaching another Jesus or another gospel, I share
another couple scripture songs with you.

Jehovah Bless You and Keep You from Numbers 4:24-26.

And today this God is the Lord Jesus Who is so near- The Lord is Near. (Philippians 4:5)

 

[guevaraj]

To love Him is really to TURN our heart to Him. That is TURN our heart to a living PERSON- the dear Lord Jesus.

Brother, you have embraced the opposite of Jesus' promise to put His law in our hearts by completely rejecting the Ten Commandments that Judaism disobeyed by replacing God's law with human law as our modern Sunday instead of the Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment.

Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.” (John 14:21 NLT)​

The fact that Jesus removed the "veil" of disobedience from Judaism by telling us how they disobeyed by replacing God's law with human law means that you disobey more fully when removing the "veil" is supposed to make you more obedient to God's law. Their mistake in replacing the Ten Commandments with a human substitute is exactly what you fully accept by defending Sunday instead of the Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment.

Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is. (1 John 3:4-6 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[oikonomia]

Brother, you have embraced the opposite of Jesus' promise to put His law in our hearts by completely rejecting the Ten Commandments that Judaism disobeyed by replacing God's law with human law as our modern Sunday instead of the Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment.

You are feeling so self-righeous about your Saturday rather than Sunday worship that there is room for little else in your soul.
At the present there seems not a bit of room for anything else in your heart except your self-righeous legalism complex.
It is just about like Elijah claiming that only he is the only one left to serve God.

The letters inscribed in tablets of stone in 2 Corinthians has to be
the law given by God to Moses.

And Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to Me at the top of the mountain, and be there; and I will give you the tablets of stone with the law and the commandment, which I have inscribed for their instruction. (Exodus 24:12)

The covenant was of a fading glory.
Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with, (2 Cor. 3:7)

It is called the ministry of death. (2 Cor. 3:7)
You are desperately trying to breath life into it.

It is called the ministry of condemnation. (v.9)
You are desperately trying to make it not so.

It is being surpassed in glory by surpassing glory of the new covenant. (v.10)
You would rather reverse the process in rebellion to God.

Paul said it is "that which is being done away" (v.7)
You are revolting that it would not be so.

The new covenant which supercedes it now is "the ministry of righeousness" (v.9)
It is also the ministry of the Spirit which gives divine ZOE life of God. (vs. 8,6)

Your efforts to make this incribed in stone letter that kills anything else but what was delivered in glory
to Moses are sad contortions and twistings of the veiled heart.

Even you and daq seemed to argue like the blind leading the blind and both falling into a pit.
But whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the Lord who is the Spirit, the veil shall be taken away.

So I encouraged you both to turn your hearts to tell the living Person of the resurrected Lord Jesus
that it is Him that you love. Like Paul who did not want to be found in his own righteousness which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ to be EVERYTHING he needed. He only wanted to gain more and more of Christ
dispensed into his being.

But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:8,9)

 

[oikonomia]

The fact that Jesus removed the "veil" of disobedience from Judaism by telling us how they disobeyed by replacing God's law with human law means that you disobey more fully when removing the "veil" is supposed to make you more obedient to God's law.

All of Paul's discussion about the inscribed letters in stone there relate not to human traditions.
They relate to what God had inscribed in stone at Mt. Sinai. You are in denial about this.

Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, (2 Cor. 3:7a)

Compare:

And Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to Me at the top of the mountain, and be there; and I will give you the tablets of stone with the law and the commandment, which I have inscribed for their instruction. (Exo. 24:12)

And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to do, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them upon two tablets of stone. (Deut. 4:13)

Don't waste your brearth trying to deny it.
Rather give more attention to what is the ministry of the Spirit - the ministry of righteousness - and Spirit that gives [divine] life of
the new covenant.

You should put aside for at least a session the Old Testament and fully immerse your heart and mind expecially in Colossians, Philppians, Galatians, and Ephesians, crying out to the Lord Jesus how you love Him. And you want to love Him more.

Then when you get to know the Lord Spirit the Old Testament wll be ever so much more sweet to you.
You'll know how to use it more to enhance your enjoyment of the new covenant experience.

 

[guevaraj]

You are feeling so self-righeous about your Saturday rather than Sunday worship that there is room for little else in your soul.

Brother, Paul is the one teaching obedience to the Sabbath in the new covenant book of Hebrews where Paul tells us we will "fall" if we disobey like those that died in the desert during the 40 years God punished them for their disobedience! Where the Sabbath is corrected from human tradition since Joshua about it being earlier in Jerusalem than the seventh day of the week. Judaism did not get the Sabbath wrong in Jerusalem, that Jesus kept as our model "Spirit" to do the same as Jesus. Judaism got the days of the week wrong, which makes their human tradition of the Sabbath wrong everywhere beside Jerusalem.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. [/COLOR]God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

The days of the week during the 40 years in the desert were from morning to morning, as revealed in the following passage where they are given two portions of Manna on the previous day because there will be no Manna tomorrow. Importantly, the bad news that there will be no quail tomorrow if the next day begins in the "evening" is not mentioned, because they will eat quail in the "evening" before Manna is the first thing they will not have the next day. The quail not mentioned clearly shows the days of the week beginning in the morning.

On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much as usual—four quarts for each person instead of two. Then all the leaders of the community came and asked Moses for an explanation. He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” So they put some aside until morning, just as Moses had commanded. And in the morning the leftover food was wholesome and good, without maggots or odor. Moses said, “Eat this food today, for today is a Sabbath day dedicated to the LORD. There will be no food on the ground today. (Exodus 16:22-25 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[oikonomia]

The questions posed are devized to promote the opinion of their inquistor.
Notice how the presuppositions the questionarie are designed to create reflect the biased dichotomy of the interrogator.

The presuppositions artificually devized are:

1.) Paul said the Spirit is of greater glory. When actually he said that the ministry of the Spirit comes in greater glory.
2.) The Spirit is a "model." This implies something merely to imitate, copy, mimic outwardly.
3.) If you don't believe the Spirit is a "model" it only indicates you just want to do your own thing.
4.) The "Spirit" in Second Corinthians cannot be the "Holy Spirit."
5.) If you disagree with the questioner that the "Spirit" isn't the "Holy Spirit" it is only because you need
an excuse to do your own thing. (Presummably as you'll see this means Sunday worship rather than Saturday Sabbath keeping."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------​

What "Spirit" for Paul is a far greater glory than the "letters etched in stone"?​

• Paul's "Spirit" is Jesus as the model "Spirit" for us to be doing likewise.
• Paul's "Spirit" is the Holy Spirit as an excuse to do our own thing different from Jesus.

 

[oikonomia]

Brother, Paul is the one teaching obedience to the Sabbath in the new covenant book of Hebrews where Paul tells us we will "fall" if we disobey like those that died in the desert during the 40 years God punished them for their disobedience!

I think because it is so obvious that you misrepreesent Second Corinthians chapter three you go over to Hebrews.
Instead of running off to a "Plan B" you should repent and no longer twist and contort Second Corinthians.

I have had times I needed to STOP believing and teaching a certain thing and repent.
I never once regretted it. It always has been a blessing.

Just because you have a Room here dedicated to a subject or a "Safe House" to espouse some view doesn't mean
that is a good teaching.

You would like to go off to another argument in Hebrews. Why not realize that need to rethink the living letters
and the new covenant in Second Corinthians?

I will say what I have not said before. The ministry of death could be ANY teaching which is devoid of the Spirit of Christ.
Even the way one teaches the rtwenty seven NT books could also be a ministry of death.

But there was no written NT at the time was writing Second Corinthians.
At least as far as I know the NT canon was not developed and recognized.

It is that which Moses delivered from God which Paul says has become -
a ministry of death,
a ministry of condemnation.
the letter [that] kills.
A ministry that initially came in glory but has FADING glory.


Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with,

How shall the ministry of the Spirit not be more in glory?

For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory.

For also that which has been glorified in this respect has not been glorified on account of the surpassing glory.

For if that which was being done away with was through glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

And no, do not rush to accuse those who read it as written of just wanting to do so so they can worship on Sunday.
That is beyond ridiculous. There is more going on here than which day to gather for worship or when it starts in evening or sunrise.

More is in issue here in Second Corinthians.
The Lord Jesus is the indwelling Spirit. The result of His inward working results in the outward glory of
God - eternal, not fading, surpassing, everlasting, remaining - the of Christ living in men.

Christ in you the hope of glory - (Col. 1:27)

 

[guevaraj]

I think because it is so obvious that you misrepreesent Second Corinthians chapter three you go over to Hebrews.
Instead of running off to a "Plan B" you should repent and no longer twist and contort Second Corinthians.

Brother, both instances confirm that Paul wants us to obey the Ten Commandments that sinners do not want to obey because they would rather keep feeding their sinful nature than turn away from sin as God wants them to do by giving us the Ten Commandments. Paul's meaning is given in both instances, but no one uses what Paul tells us he means by the words he uses, and instead they try to have it say something other than what Paul says he means. In the following passage, Paul tells us what he means by his use of the word "Spirit": that Jesus is the model "Spirit" correcting how we should keep the Ten Commandments instead of Judaism's disobedience of the letters etched in stone, which kill when disobeyed.

But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow who obeyed properly the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) removed can see and reflect the glory (character) of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

As in 2 Corinthians chapter 3 above, Paul in Hebrews chapter 4 below also tells us what he means by his use of the word "rest" that people try to make mean something other than what Paul tells us he means in the following passage.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” (Hebrews 4:3-4 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[oikonomia]

Brother, both instances confirm that Paul wants us to obey the Ten Commandments that sinners do not want to obey because they would rather keep feeding their sinful nature than turn away from sin as God wants them to do by giving us the Ten Commandments.

So you should not feed your sinful nature to twist Second Corinthians chapter three.

Paul's meaning

If you have no intention of believing what Paul said about the law don't tell me about "Paul's meaning".
The first one to suffer for misrepresenting the word of God in Second Corinthians chatpter three is yourself.
You are the first victim of rebellion.
The first person whose spiritual life is damaged yourself. "Brother . . . this and that" and "United in the hope of Jesus return"
not withstanding.

is given in both instances, but no one uses what Paul tells us he means by the words he uses, and instead they try to have it say something other than what Paul says he means. In the following passage, Paul tells us what he means by his use of the word "Spirit": that Jesus is the model "Spirit" correcting how we should keep the Ten Commandments instead of Judaism's disobedience of the letters etched in stone, which kill when disobeyed.

The meaning of who the Spirit is is plainly given in chapter 3:17 -
"And the Lord is the Spirit;"

The Spirit is the Lord. And the Lord throughout the letter is Christ Jesus.
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, (2 Cor. 4:5)

The word "model" is totally YOUR invention to interject YOUR concept.
It might not be a problem. But if it leads to some erroneous teaching that "the Spirit" there is some OTHER Spirit besides
the Holy Spirit, the cause of this error must be traced back to somewhere. Maybe it goes back to your idea of
a "model".

But it was told you, the Holy Spirit is used interchangeably with the Spirit of Jesus in Acts 16:6,7.

And they passed through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
And when they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, yet the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

I reject any artificial explanation that WITHIN the apostles there was the regulation of the Holy Spirit.
But this was not the case with the regulation of the outside "model" of the Spirit of Jesus.

Now you can "Brother,Brother" me all day long. But I am now going to be honestly frank with you.
If your teaching of TWO Spirits - one outside of man "the Spirit" and another inside the Christians "the Holy Spirit"
might be a doctrine of demons.

For if "the Lord is the Spirit" then Jesus Christ the Lord lives within the regenerated.
It could only be Satan who wants to sow doubt in Christians that the Spirit within the believer is not the Lord.

It could only be some teaching from the forces of darkness that the Spirit is some OTHER Person besides "the Holy Spirit."

But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) is taken away.

(not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) that is YOUR commentary.

Down the road from your confused commentary are two dangerous teachings.
1.) Christ is not the Holy Spirit.
2.) Christ is neither "the Spirit" in Paul's letters.
3.) Somehow all this supports the self righteous view that only Saturday Sabbath keeping is genuine worship of God.

This is obsession with you.
When the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness.

But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be dark. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! (Matt. 6:23)

In 2 Cor. 3:6 says " but the Spirit gives life" it could only mean the "life giving Spirit" that the last Adam [Christ] BECAME.

So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

The giving of divine life is from WITHIN.
So for the life giving Spirit to impart God's divine life into a new humanity the LORD Jesus Christ must be doing so from WITHIN.

But you don't care about this. You care about whether the Sabbath starts at sunrise or sunset.

 

[guevaraj]

The giving of divine life is from WITHIN. So for the life giving Spirit to impart God's divine life into a new humanity the LORD Jesus Christ must be doing so from WITHIN.

Brother, Paul is not talking about a hidden inside "Spirit", but an externally visible "Spirit". Where we must "image" or copy our selves to the pattern of Jesus' example, as we "see" our lives "reflect" Jesus as we would see ourselves externally in a mirror, comparing ourselves to Jesus' in the flesh model of obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience, which leads to death in a "veil" of obedience to replacement human traditions that disobey the Ten Commandments, contradicting the purpose of the Ten Commandments to remove sin. A "veil", like our modern Sunday human tradition, replaces God's Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment, when Paul tells us such replacements that keep the sin God's Ten Commandments are meant to remove kill and only obeying the Ten Commandments as Jesus shows us how to obey them saves from sin. Notice the external nature of reflecting what we see in Jesus in the flesh is an external example-Spirit, an external-visible example "Spirit" of obedience. Jesus, in the flesh life of obedience, is the "Spirit" to "image", because Jesus is a visible in the flesh "Spirit" for us to model after His obedience instead of Judaism's disobedience.

But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow who obeyed properly the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil (not knowing they were disobeying the Ten Commandments) removed can see and reflect the glory (character) of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[oikonomia]

guevaraj - Brother, Paul is not talking about a hidden inside "Spirit", but an externally visible "Spirit".

The Spirit in chapter 3 is the same Spirit who has been given to the believers as a pledge.
This Spirit God has given to us believers "in our hearts."

But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God,
He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2 Cor. 1:21,22)

And your conscience must be as seared with a hot iron.

 

[guevaraj]

your conscience must be as seared with a hot iron.

Brother, you are no better than Judaism even though the "veil" of Judaism's disobedience has been lifted by Jesus in the following passage! What Jesus has done is to fulfill the promise of putting the law of God in our hearts by being our example of how to obey God's law fully, unlike Judaism's disobedience of the Ten Commandments. You do not have God's law in your heart when you break the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment by replacing it with the human tradition of Sunday, just like Jesus spoke of Judaism's disobedience of replacing God's law with their own "man-made ideas as commandments from God".

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[oikonomia]

You do not have God's law in your heart when you break the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment by replacing it with the human tradition of Sunday, just like Jesus spoke of Judaism's disobedience of replacing God's law with their own "man-made ideas as commandments from God".

What Jesus acomplished is to put HIMSELF into the hearts of those who recieve Him.

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.
Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live.
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:17-20)

As for your insistence on Saturday worship. I have nothing against Tuesday or Thrusday main worship
any more than Lord's Day or Saturday main worship. Our Lord's table meeting is on the Lord's day, the first day of
the new week. But we have many gatherings through the week with His dear presence.

Let no one therefore judge you in eating and in drinking or in respect of a feast or of a new moon or of the Sabbath,
Which are a shadow of the things to come, but the body is of Christ. (Col. 2:6,7)

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He who regards that day, regards it to the Lord; and he who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat, does not eat to the Lord, and he gives thanks to God. (Rom. 14:5,6)

I have already seen how you would furiously dance around to make these verses say something else.
I've seen that sad desperate dance.

 

[guevaraj]

What Jesus acomplished is to put HIMSELF into the hearts of those who recieve Him.

Brother, Jesus himself as an example of obedience to God's law in contrast to Judaism's disobedience to God's Ten Commandments.

Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:17-20)

The Holy Spirits' job is to remind us of the life of Jesus as our example to do the same as Jesus. We follow the Holy Spirit through the guaranteed word of God through the prophets, because He speaks publicly what He hears in the scriptures and has nothing to say personally to non-prophets whom he reminds of Jesus' life of obedience for us to do the same as Jesus.

As for your insistence on Saturday worship. I have nothing against Tuesday or Thrusday main worship any more than Lord's Day or Saturday main worship. Our Lord's table meeting is on the Lord's day, the first day of the new week. But we have many gatherings through the week with His dear presence.

None of those alternatives to God's "day" of rest is God's true "day" of rest established since creation, which fulfill Paul's call to keep the true biblical Sabbath which Judaism failed to get since Joshua.

Let no one therefore judge you in eating and in drinking or in respect of a feast or of a new moon or of the Sabbath,
Which are a shadow of the things to come, but the body is of Christ. (Col. 2:6,7)

Jesus has corrected the Sabbath from human tradition since Joshua in the new covenant book of Hebrews. Paul tells us we will "fall" like those in the desert if we fail to enter God's true day of rest like those whom God kept from entering the Sabbath for 40 years in the desert as a punishment for their disobedience.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind.
He who regards that day, regards it to the Lord; and he who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat, does not eat to the Lord, and he gives thanks to God. (Rom. 14:5,6)

The truth about the biblical Sabbath is in the word of God for those who want to do God's will and are not looking for excuses to sin against God's law which leads to death.

I have already seen how you would furiously dance around to make these verses say something else besides what they say.
I've seen that sad desperate dance.

I'm not the one disobeying God's law that frees us from sin to give us life. Paul excludes God's law as being the only law that eliminates sin to give us life when sin leads to death. Paul is saying eliminate the entire law of Judaism, mainly of a multitude of human traditions that sabotage God's law to not remove sin, but not the law of God that eliminates sin.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of humans in Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (disobeying the Eleven Commandments)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace in the Father putting Jesus as our High Priest)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (disobeying the Eleven Commandments), which leads to death (like Judaism's sabotage of not obeying "all" of God's Ten Commandments), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments that remove sin), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus' many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments that remove sin)! Once you were slaves of sin (disobeying the Eleven Commandments), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey Jesus' Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[oikonomia]

Brother, Jesus himself as an example of obedience to God's law in contrast to Judaism's disobedience to God's Ten Commandments.

Any Humanist who is not a Christian, or Buddhist who thinks the Ten Commandments is a real good idea could
teach what you teach.

Ie. "We think Jesus was a good example how to live. Whether there is God or not we cannot deny Jesus was an upstanding and good
example for us all to imitate. What a model. What a pattern to imitate."

Universalists, Unitarians, Agnostics, morally astute Atheists with Fundamentalist Christians and Seventh Day Adventists all could agree that in Jesus there is a great example of how to live the human life that surely, if there is God, this is how to do it.

Then they would say "You go and do likewise. Follow the example of Jesus."

You will probaby protest that only you emphasize Saturday though as the proper Sabbath law to keep.

The Holy Spirits' job is to remind us of the life of Jesus as our example to do the same as Jesus. We follow the Holy Spirit through the guaranteed word of God through the prophets, because He speaks publicly what He hears in the scriptures and has nothing to say personally to non-prophets whom he reminds of Jesus' life of obedience for us to do the same as Jesus.

No one argues that the Holy Spirit reminds us to follow Jesus.
But the Holy Spirit lives within the saved.

And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. (John 20:22)

The words may be wasted on you because of your stubborn veil covering your mind.
But for those who are willing to turn their heart to the Lord that the veil be taken away, this RECEIVING
of the Holy Spirit is also the RECEIVING of the Son of God.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, (John 1:12)

None of those alternatives to God's "day" of rest is God's true "day" of rest established since creation, which fulfill Paul's call to keep the true biblical Sabbath which Judaism failed to get since Joshua.

This mention of the Sabbath Rest on the seventh day, WHERE in Second Corinthians is it mentioned?
If you wish to contort all of Second Corinthians chapter three to be about Saturday Sabbath Rest WHERE does Paul
excplicitely mention it there?

Jesus has corrected the Sabbath from human tradition since Joshua in the new covenant book of Hebrews. Paul tells us we will "fall" like those in the desert if we fail to enter God's true day of rest like those whom God kept from entering the Sabbath for 40 years in the desert as a punishment for their disobedience.

It is completely true that the writer of Hebrews (whom I also believe to most likely to be Paul) emphasizes
coming forward to the rest of God. But he does not stress it has to be on Saturday either beginning at sunrise or sunset.

The word of God speaks of God's rest and all you see is Saturday.
How myopic and pigeonholed is your viewpoint.

You become like a piano with only one key. And it is not even middle C.

The Rest is because man is filled with God within and expresses God without.
The Rest is the God reigns on behave of God in His kingdom.
The Rest is that the image of God is seen and the dominion of God is exercised.

This occured on one stage in the kingdom being established in the Canaanite conquest.
This occured on one stage in the tabernacle where God dwelt with the Hebrews.
These were stages of the Sabbath Rest of God. They were not the last stage of the eternal Sabbath Rest
of the New Jerusalem which is the ultimate union and dwelling place of God in man for His image and dominion.

And the Sabbath Rest that Joshua's army of Jehovah was urged to enter into had a far greater
manifestation in the Son of God.

There ultimately is no rest without coming to God incarnated.

Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest.

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. (Matt. 11:28-30)

I'm not the one disobeying God's law that frees us from sin to give us life.

In your next post show me explicitely where in the New Testament I am taught that
God's law frees us from sin to give us life.

And I will show you many verses which say Christ Himself is the one who
frees from the sin nature and dispenses divine life into man.

Do not run to Exodus, Deutoronomy, or Psalms or other Old Testament book just yet.
Show me in the twenty seven books of the New Testament this teaching -
God's law frees us from sin to give us life.

 

[guevaraj]

In your next post show me explicitly where in the New Testament I am taught that God's law frees us from sin to give us life.

Brother, all it takes is two passages to give an answer where Paul is not eliminating the law of God but the added human law of Judaism. Firstly, to disobey God's Ten Commandments is a sin as expressed in the first passage below. Secondly, continuing to sin leads to death, according to Paul in the second passage below. We know from Jesus that Judaism disobeyed God's Ten Commandments by adding contradictory human traditions that caused them to disobey God's Ten Commandments, such as our modern Sunday tradition in place of the Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment. The human traditions of Judaism maintained the sin the Ten Commandments were given to eliminate by causing them to disobey the Ten Commandments, which were given to eliminate sin when they are obeyed. We follow Judaism's example of disobedience when we keep the sin of disobeying God's Fourth Commandment with our modern human tradition of Sunday instead of the Sabbath, which leads to death, according to Paul in the second passage below.

Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is. (1 John 3:4-6 NLT)​

Above, we are told that to disobey any of the Ten Commandments is a sin. In the next passage, Paul excludes the law of God by being the only law that eliminates sin when obeyed. If we disobey the Ten Commandments, we maintain the sin the Ten Commandments were given to eliminate and Paul wants us not to sin, which means we must obey the Ten Commandments. Paul is eliminating all human traditions in Judaism but keeping the law of God, which eliminates sin.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of humans in Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (disobeying the Eleven Commandments)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace in the Father putting Jesus as our High Priest)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (disobeying the Eleven Commandments), which leads to death (like Judaism's sabotage of not obeying "all" of God's Ten Commandments), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments that remove sin), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus' many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments that remove sin)! Once you were slaves of sin (disobeying the Eleven Commandments), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey Jesus' Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[oikonomia]

Brother, all it takes is two passages to give an answer where Paul is not eliminating the law of God but the added human law of Judaism.

Answer the question I asked not the question you wish I had asked.
I said nothing about Paul eliminating or not eliminating the law of God.

I asked for the passage teaching the law of God frees from sin and gives life.

Firstly, to disobey God's Ten Commandments is a sin as expressed in the first passage below.

Your first statement has no debate from me about it.
Of course to disobey the Ten Commandments is sin.
So what about your second statement?

Secondly, continuing to sin leads to death, according to Paul in the second passage below.

Neither is there any debate about the continuing in sin leads to death.
Of course in Paul's writing "death" does not always mean the stopping of the heart.

In the New Testament "death" often means powerlessness, weakness, inability to live unto God, being defeated, depressed.
under depression, uneasy, empty, futile, under vanity or vanities.

Sinnning leads to "death" in this sense before it finally results in the cessation of breathing as DYING - the stoppage of the
heart beat.

Death in the book of Romans often carries this connotation - defeat, weakness, powerlessness.
And life in Christ to strength, ability, power, grace upholding and empowering against the weakness of "death."

For if you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live. (Rom. 8:13)

We know from Jesus that Judaism disobeyed God's Ten Commandments by adding contradictory human traditions that caused them to disobey God's Ten Commandments, such as our modern Sunday tradition in place of the Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment.

That is not disputed. Yes we know that. We also KNOW that the Ten Commandments could not give life.
Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21)

"[A] law" means ANY LAW. A Law given to Moses or a law given by some imaginative scribe or priest years latter after Sinai.

For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21)

You want to use two verses? I shall use two verses too. Jesus came that we might HAVE life.
The thief does not come except to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly. (John 10:10)

Furthermore Jesus came to us free indeed from sin.
If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)

I am still waiting for your one or more than one New Testament passage teaching that
the law of God frees from sin and that the law of God gives life.

The human traditions of Judaism maintained the sin the Ten Commandments were given to eliminate by causing them to disobey the Ten Commandments, which were given to eliminate sin when they are obeyed. We follow Judaism's example of disobedience when we keep the sin of disobeying God's Fourth Commandment with our modern human tradition of Sunday instead of the Sabbath, which leads to death, according to Paul in the second passage below.

Where is the New Testament passage/s showing the teaching - God's law frees from sin and God''s law gives life?

Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God. And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, and there is no sin in him. Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is. (1 John 3:4-6 NLT)

That verse only goes to echo your first point - that -

Firstly, to disobey God's Ten Commandments is a sin as expressed in the first passage below.

Above, we are told that to disobey any of the Ten Commandments is a sin. In the next passage, Paul excludes the law of God by being the only law that eliminates sin when obeyed.

First John 3:4-6 teaches that to disobey the commands of God is sinning.
That the exhortation includes the many commands of the indwelling Spirit of God which are not written on the tablets of Moses is evident.

You haven't done much here but repeat with some expansion that to disobey God's commandments is to sin.

If we disobey the Ten Commandments, we maintain the sin the Ten Commandments were given to eliminate

Where does it say the Law of God was given to eliminate sin?
The New Testament teaches that the Law of God was given to EXPOSE the sin nature.
The Law was given to reveal the hopless nature of SIN in the fallen body which no man can overcome.

The answer is twofold - First we need REDEMPTION from all past sins.
Secondly we need the powerful living Person of Christ HIMSELF to be our indwelling new life.

No, not merely our outward example to imitate. This would be like a poodle walking on its hinds legs to imitate a walking man.
Or this imitation of the "model" of your teaching is like the imitation of a chimpanzee dressed in human cloths.

It is not imitation in that sense. It is learning to let the Lord Jesus Himself live a mingled life with our life.
The Lord Jesus is the Spirit that where ever He is there is freedom.

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17)

So into every chamber of our heart, in every room of our soul we must let the Lord in so He with Himself brings FREEDOM.
Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.

He cannot occupy that part of your heart if it still trusts in your self effort.

and Paul wants us not to sin,

Yes he does. And the way is that Christ is the life which cannot sin. So the life of Christ brings this law of life into our being.
It is infusion with another Person not imitation as a model NOT within us.

John too teaches the ability to overcome the sin nature is in the SEED which cannot sin and has been implanted within
the believers.

Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. (1 John 3:9)

Every seed must GROW. Every seed must be watered and GROW.
With the growing of the life of God within the victory over sin is inevitable.
And this growing comes about with our faith. That is our faith expanding, depenning into us.

This is the victory that overcomes the world and sin - our faith - our faith that the living SEED of the life of God in Jesus Christ
can be everything we need

For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory which has overcome the world — our faith. (1 John 5:4)

So Paul wanted to be always FOUND IN HIM- the living Person, available and indwelling.
He had been a zealous law keeper and failed misreably into self wretchedness. He showed us so that we
may not need to repeat him.

He wanted to be FOUND in the living Person of Christ.

But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse that I may gain Christ

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:8,9)