What Specific Evidence Should Point To Ex Nihilo Creation?

[AV1611VET]

He appears to be in the minority percentage (with you) who believe: God is dishonest.

Would you know it if He was?

 

[ottawak]

Norbert belongs in that percentage that believes: IN THE BEGINNING, GOD CREATED.

And in that 100% of those who ever lived, alive today, and will be alive tomorrow, who believe: IN THE BEGINNING, GOD.

In short, Norbert knows how to prioritize.

Many people, including stauch supporters of the theory of evolution, believe that "In the beginning, God created."

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Would you know it if He was?

No, but it does beg the question of why you consider him worthy of worship.

And I love that you've derailed your own thread

 

[AV1611VET]

Many people, including stauch supporters of the theory of evolution, believe that "In the beginning, God created."

Yup.

But not all.

That's why I said Norbert belongs "in that percentage."

Whether it be 90% or 75% or whatever.

But every Christian who ever lived, alive today, and will be alive tomorrow, believes IN THE BEGINNING, GOD.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, but it does beg the question of why you consider him worthy of worship.

Didn't you consider Him worthy of worship at one time?

Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Didn't you consider Him worthy of worship at one time?

Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

Mixed up with someone else. I got as far as considering training as a missionary before the silence became too obvious.

 

[AV1611VET]

Mixed up with someone else. I got as far as considering training as a missionary before the silence became too obvious.

Mormon, I take it?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Mormon, I take it?

I was as much a Mormon as you are.

 

[TLK Valentine]

But every Christian who ever lived, alive today, and will be alive tomorrow, believes IN THE BEGINNING, GOD.

And they spent the last 2,000 years arguing with each other, ostracizing each other, persecuting each other, and occasionally killing each other over the rest of it.

Good thing secular society was able to get them in check, or it would just be getting worse.

 

[Larniavc]

This is more theological than scientific IMO.

God, who is eternal, created everything out of nothing. Science is used to look at the truths of the universe. Depending on your interpretation, they can work together.

To be fair if God made it then there can’t have been nothing. Because there was God before the universe came into existence.

 

[Norbert L]

That's just arguing for a dishonest god who removed evidence. I'm sure AV will object.

I don't know how trying to define a nothing as an absence would be arguing for or against having the singular God of the Bible or polytheistic gods in general and whether such a thing indicates dishonesty or truthfulness. Seems character evaluation is a bit of a stretch and unrelated.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I don't know how trying to define a nothing as an absence would be arguing for or against having the singular God of the Bible or polytheistic gods in general and whether such a thing indicates dishonesty or truthfulness. Seems character evaluation is a bit of a stretch and unrelated.

Your argument was that the evidence went missing and therefore became absent. That necessitates evidence existing and then being removed, which most people would consider to be dishonest.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your argument was that the evidence went missing and therefore became absent. That necessitates evidence existing and then being removed,

I agree.

... which most people would consider to be dishonest.

Unless there was a reason for it.

 

[Norbert L]

Your argument was that the evidence went missing and therefore became absent. That necessitates evidence existing and then being removed, which most people would consider to be dishonest.

I'm trying to avoid placing character traits with motives into this discussion. Sometimes a missing child at the store is evidence that an adult got distracted and their child wandered off. Being removed isn't the only conclusion, it could very well be only out of sight.

Let me try:

"Ex nihilo": has nothing, says nothing, proves nothing, means nothing.

...there you go.

Thanks, this is useful! Absence: the state of being away from a place or person. Absence requires two things. A state of being(1) unavailable from a location(2). This is already two somethings both of which require having an external observation which says something of a proof that is meaningful. From or out of nothing creation does need external observers who say things as proof about the meaning they wish to inject into the discussion.

 

[partinobodycular]

Both Aristotle and Aquinas believed that God created reality out of "Prime matter". Prime matter pretty much by definition cannot be created, it's eternal. It's essentially the metaphysical version of a quantum vacuum, as such nowhere in the bible does it suggest actual "Creatio Ex Nihilo".

It's a fallacy.

If you're going to argue that a quantum vacuum isn't actually "nothing" then you're simply arguing that "creatio ex nihilo" never happened, because even metaphysics admits that there had to be something out of which "things" were created. Call it prime matter, or call it a quantum vacuum, they're the same thing.

The traditional interpretation of Aristotle, which goes back as far as Augustine (De Genesi contra Manichaeos i 5–7) and Simplicius (On Aristotle’s Physics i 7), and is accepted by Aquinas (De Principiis Naturae §13), holds that Aristotle believes in something called “prime matter”, which is the matter of the elements, where each element is, then, a compound of this matter and a form. This prime matter is usually described as pure potentiality, just as, on the form side, the unmoved movers are said by Aristotle to be pure actuality, form without any matter (Metaphysics xii 6). What it means to call prime matter “pure potentiality” is that it is capable of taking on any form whatsoever, and thus is completely without any essential properties of its own. It exists eternally, since, if it were capable of being created or destroyed, there would have to be some even lower matter to underlie those changes. Because it is the matter of the elements, which are themselves present in all more complex bodies, it is omnipresent, and underlies not only elemental generation and destruction, but all physical changes.

Form vs. Matter (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I'm trying to avoid placing character traits with motives into this discussion. Sometimes a missing child at the store is evidence that an adult got distracted and their child wandered off. Being removed isn't the only conclusion, it could very well be only out of sight.

Evidence doesn't wander off, particularly when there's an (apparently) all-powerful god involved. Evidence being removed, hidden, or disguised - whichever deception you want to pick the conclusion is still dishonesty. You may not want to attribute character traits, but if the perpetrator displays such traits what should you conclude?

 

[AV1611VET]

Evidence doesn't wander off, particularly when there's an (apparently) all-powerful god involved. Evidence being removed, hidden, or disguised - whichever deception you want to pick the conclusion is still dishonesty. You may not want to attribute character traits, but if the perpetrator displays such traits what should you conclude?

That dishonest professionals removed the evidence of Hurricane Katrina for sanitary and safety reasons?

 

[TLK Valentine]

That dishonest professionals removed the evidence of Hurricane Katrina for sanitary and safety reasons?

If those same professionals were the ones that caused Katrina in the first place, "dishonest" doesn't begin to cover it.

Alas, Katrina was an Act of God... Which just goes to show He has little interest in cleaning up His own messes.

 

[AV1611VET]

Alas, Katrina was an Act of God... Which just goes to show He has little interest in cleaning up His own messes.

Looks clean to me.

 

[RileyG]

To be fair if God made it then there can’t have been nothing. Because there was God before the universe came into existence.

Yes. I agree with this post.