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“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 1035, promulgated by Saint Pope John Paul II)

This note on the impact of “universal salvation” on the modern church begins with a somewhat frightening quote from a great spiritual writer of the nineteenth century, F.W. Faber, who seemed to have a premonition that the loss of belief in hell was going to infiltrate the Church. He says:

“The devil’s worst and most fatal preparation for the coming of Antichrist is the weakening of men’s belief in eternal punishment. Were they the last words I might ever say to you, nothing should I wish to say to you with more emphasis than this, that next to the thought of the Precious Blood there is no thought in all your faith more precious or more needful for you than the thought of Eternal Punishment.”

Apokatastasis is the heresy that claims that – in the end – all men are saved. It is a denial of hell or in the eternity of hell. It’s most famous disciple was Origen. In more recent times the theology of universal salvation (universalism) has made its way back into the Church through the apokatastasis-leaning writings of the Protestant, Karl Barth, and the Catholic, Hans Urs von Balthasar, although these men speak more to the hope or probability of universal salvation than to its dogmatic certainty (still von Balthasar popularized the notion that in view of God’s infinite love it is unlikely anyone is damned forever, even if the possibility cannot be ruled out).


“The history of the doctrine of universal salvation is a remarkable one. Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of the eternal torment of hell….Since 1800 this situation has entirely changed and no traditional Christian doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment….Universal salvation is now so widely accepted… that many theologians assume it virtually without argument” (Richard Bauckham as quoted in Will Many Be Saved, p. 130). Although Mr. Bauckham’s statement may be overly broad it nevertheless gives us some perspective on the rapid disenfranchisement of the church from the doctrine of hell (as in not preaching about hell, or popularizing the notion that only horrible characters go there, or in simply not preaching about sin).
 

d taylor

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Satan deceives in may ways, universal salvation is just one deceptive belief . One that is more dangerous and deceptive is a person must have more than believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.
 
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Jun 26, 2003
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Satan deceives in may ways, universal salvation is just one deceptive belief . One that is more dangerous and deceptive is a person must have more than believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation.
Jesus’ gift is free, but it is a call to sacrifice. There are plenty of warnings in the Bible. Whosever will follow me, let deny himself and take up his cross. That is more than mouthing the words Jesus Jesus and failing to do anything else.
Jesus warns us in very stern language. Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Also in Revelation 3:

14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.

20 Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne


We need to repent and follow God’s commands. Satan’s greatest deception is the once saved always saved lie. God clearly says that if you do not bring forth fruits worthy of penance then you are lost. This whole faith Vs works debate is absurd. We are saved By grace, through faith unto good works. Those that mouth the words Jesus Jesus but do not repent are deceived, but they are still alive and require evangelization
 
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d taylor

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Jesus’ gift is free, but it is a call to sacrifice. There are plenty of warnings in the Bible. Whosever will follow me, let deny himself and take up his cross. That is more than mouthing the words Jesus Jesus and failing to do anything else.
Jesus warns us in very stern language. Not everyone that says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Also in Revelation 3:

14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.

20 Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome, and am set down with my Father in his throne


We need to repent and follow God’s commands. Satan’s greatest deception is the once saved always saved lie. God clearly says that if you do not bring forth fruits worthy of penance then you are lost. This whole faith Vs works debate is absurd. We are saved By grace, through faith unto good works. Those that mouth the words Jesus Jesus but do not repent are deceived, but they are still alive and require evangelization

Paul is never seen to repent of his actions. When Phillip evangelizes the Ethiopian, Phillip never tells the Ethiopian to repent.

I am not here to side track your topics post, so this will be the last post from me on this. As i see you too are one who is adding actions to faith.
 
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zippy2006

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“The history of the doctrine of universal salvation is a remarkable one. Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of the eternal torment of hell….Since 1800 this situation has entirely changed and no traditional Christian doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment….Universal salvation is now so widely accepted… that many theologians assume it virtually without argument” (Richard Bauckham as quoted in Will Many Be Saved, p. 130).
Good post. Good quote. Good book. All true.

This is perhaps the most serious heresy of our age. It is hard to imagine how many souls are being damned on account of this heresy. Indeed, it is the flip side of the "sin against the Holy Spirit," as presumption is the flip side of despair.
 
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prodromos

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The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 1035, promulgated by Saint Pope John Paul II)
My understanding is that no one is in hell until after the last judgement, so I would be interested in hearing the sources for the above claimed teaching of the Catholic Church. I can't say that I have come across anything like it in my reading of the Church Fathers.

Likewise the claim that hell is separation from God. My understanding is that the chief torment of hell is for those who want nothing to do with God being unable to escape His presence.
 
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Jun 26, 2003
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My understanding is that no one is in hell until after the last judgement, so I would be interested in hearing the sources for the above claimed teaching of the Catholic Church. I can't say that I have come across anything like it in my reading of the Church Fathers.

Likewise the claim that hell is separation from God. My understanding is that the chief torment of hell is for those who want nothing to do with God being unable to escape His presence.
The catechism of the Catholic Church always contains sources you may look up references #1035 in the Catechism or I could do it for you

Reference in the Catechism states

617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.
 
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prodromos

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:scratch:
Do you understand what those references are?
DS refers to Denzinger-Schonmetzer
Enchiridion-symbolorum the numbers are the page referrences

The Enchiridion, usually translated as The Sources of Catholic Dogma, is a compendium of texts on Catholic theology and morality, some of which date back to the Apostolic Age. It has been first published in 1854, and has been regularly updated in subsequent editions since.


I believe that it is available online or through Amazon. If you are interested, it would be a worthwhile pursuit. I am going to read it myself
Thank you for your post asking the question and pointing me in that direction. May the Lord bless you in your pursuit of truth

I will have to see if your claim of no early Church fathers prior to schism claimed that. Origen claimed the restoration of the damned, and that was declared a heresy of Apokatastasis. I need to research when that was declared heretical

In the Scriptures we read Our Lord say fear not those that can kill the body, rather fear Him that after he has killed the body you will be thrown body and soul into hell, fear Him (paraphrase)
Also Gehenna is described as a place where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

Thank you for posting
 
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prodromos

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Ok just found Apokatastasis was condemned at the Council of Constantinople in 543 AD, almost 500 years before schism, again thank you for your question
That is not my issue. My issue is with the claim that those who die in mortal sin immediately go to hell, before the last judgement. That is not found in any of the patristic references prior to the schism.
 
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zippy2006

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Ok, I figured out they are paragraphs in Denzinger Schónmetzer Enchiridion Symbolorum
There are no Early Church Fathers referenced that make the above claims. It is only after the schism that such claims are found.
Well, a number of the citations are pre-schism, but none of them make any sense to me. It almost seems like a flubbed footnote.

That is not my issue. My issue is with the claim that those who die in mortal sin immediately go to hell, before the last judgement. That is not found in any of the patristic references prior to the schism.
If memory serves, this doctrine developed right around the time of the Schism, proximate to the controversies surrounding John XXII.

But it is a difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
 
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prodromos

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Well, a number of the citations are pre-schism, but none of them make any sense to me. It almost seems like a flubbed footnote.
The early citations only speak of the eternal consequences after the last judgement.
 
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fhansen

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The early citations only speak of the eternal consequences after the last judgement.
The Catholic Church distinguishes between a "particular judgment" where everyone knows and experiences their eternal fates immediately after death, and the last judgment where all are gathered at the end of time to witness God's verdict collectively, where,
"In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life" (CCC1039). On the particular judgment:

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597
 
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JSRG

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Ok just found Apokatastasis was condemned at the Council of Constantinople in 543 AD, almost 500 years before schism, again thank you for your question
Well, sort of.

So, there are two sets of canons attributed to the Second Council of Constantinople. The "primary" canons say nothing at all about Apokatastasis, or Apocatastasis as it can be rendered; it was concerning christological issues.

There is, however, a second list of canons aimed at Origen (or, at least, views that were attributed to Origen) that are attributed to the council. There are only two canons here, however, that seem to refer to Apokastasis/Apocatastasis. One can see it translated into English at Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Ser. II, Vol. XIV: The Fifth Ecumenical Council. The Second Council of Constantinople.: The Anathemas Against Origen.. There is the first canon:

"If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."

I'm not sure what the underlying Greek text says for restoration here, namely whether it has Apoctastasis (canon 14 uses "Apocatastasis" in the translation so it would be odd if it was untranslated here, but it might have just been inconsistent on that point). However, it does not clearly define exactly what restoration is referred to in this canon, but canon 14 makes it very clear:

"If anyone shall say that all reasonable beings will one day be united in one, when the hypostases as well as the numbers and the bodies shall have disappeared, and that the knowledge of the world to come will carry with it the ruin of the worlds, and the rejection of bodies as also the abolition of [all] names, and that there shall be finally an identity of the γνῶσις and of the hypostasis; moreover, that in this pretended apocatastasis, spirits only will continue to exist, as it was in the feigned pre-existence: let him be anathema."

This defines what it means by "apocatastasis" and it is something I have never seen any universalist propose--it's more like something you'd see in science fiction. So this is what was condemned. Thus while this is a condemnation against apocatastasis, it condemns a specific form of it, not explicitly universalism in generally.

The only clear condemnation of universalism comes not from the council, but from the ninth of a list of canons that Emperor Justinian personally issued in a letter he wrote:

Canon 9: "If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema."

While the people at the council may have been in agreement with Justinian's views, they do not seem to have, in the canons of the council (primary ones or the ones directed at Origen) seem to have formally approved the decrees Justinian gave.
 
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JSRG

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Ok, I figured out they are paragraphs in Denzinger Schónmetzer Enchiridion Symbolorum
If one wishes to view Denzinger in a simpler HTML form (rather than the archive.org link), you can find it here:

Of course, both the link I provided and the link prodromos provided are in Latin. An English translation is here:

We do run into an issue here, though. At some point Denzinger's numbering got redone; the citations that were listed ("617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.") are for the new numbering, but the English translation was of the old numbering. The good news is that the new numbering does list the old numbering in it. So if you want to see the English translation of any of those, first you have to look at the new numbering, take note of what the corresponding old number was (it should be the second number), then switch over to the English translation and look up that.

To explain what I mean, let's take the first one listed, 76. So, you look at the new numbering and find it has a 40 next to it (there are subsequent numbers but those are related to the document it is from, not the Denzinger). So you then look at the English translation of the original numbers (#40) and you will see the translation. In this case, it's a portion of the Athanasian Creed.

Anyway, just thought I might as well post this so that people can look them up for themselves and understand what the citations are if they do not know Latin. Incidentally, if anyone is wondering what the last one "Paul VI, CPG § 12" refers to, it is Credo of the People of God which can be found at Solemni Hac Liturgia (Credo of the People of God) (June 30, 1968) | Paul VI.
 
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zippy2006

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We do run into an issue here, though. At some point Denzinger's numbering got redone; the citations that were listed ("617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.") are for the new numbering, but the English translation was of the old numbering. The good news is that the new numbering does list the old numbering in it. So if you want to see the English translation of any of those, first you have to look at the new numbering, take note of what the corresponding old number was (it should be the second number), then switch over to the English translation and look up that.
I was wondering if it was something like this. Very helpful, thank you.
 
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zippy2006

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zippy2006

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The only clear condemnation of universalism comes not from the council, but from the ninth of a list of canons that Emperor Justinian personally issued in a letter he wrote:
This account discounts the fact that the conciliar canons also came from Justinian, and were simply more recent and proximate to the Council than the other set (link).
 
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