What say you?

JSRG

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This account discounts the fact that the conciliar canons also came from Justinian, and were simply more recent and proximate to the Council than the other set (link).
Even if canons passed by the council came were proposed by Justinian, what is important is which ones were confirmed. They confirmed the "primary" canons and probably also the 15 against Origen (there is some debate on the latter), the latter of which did condemn a specific interpretation of Apocastasis. However, as far as I can tell there was no such formal acceptance of the other group of Justinian's, the only one that gave any actual condemnation of universalism. Therefore, to say the council condemned it, which was the claim made, does not seem to add up.
 
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zippy2006

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Even if canons passed by the council came were proposed by Justinian, what is important is which ones were confirmed. They confirmed the "primary" canons and probably also the 15 against Origen (there is some debate on the latter), the latter of which did condemn a specific interpretation of Apocastasis. However, as far as I can tell there was no such formal acceptance of the other group of Justinian's, the only one that gave any actual condemnation of universalism. Therefore, to say the council condemned it, which was the claim made, does not seem to add up.
Well we had this conversation in the other thread. The issue here is timing and the action of local councils prior to the ecumenical council. If memory serves, Justinian did not present the ecumenical council with the older list.

But whether the council condemned it depends on how the council is understood vis-a-vis the recent local councils, the patriarchs, the pope, etc. We can say that, as far as our records show, the ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn apokatastasis in its canons. But the oldest Churches and witnesses seem to unanimously affirm that the ecumenical council did reject Origenism--including apokatastasis--at Constantinople II. If someone wishes to prefer extant documents and their own hermeneutic over the living Christian traditions, that is their prerogative, but historicism does not automatically win out over these ancient traditions. Besides, if one reads the documents of Constantinople II and the following councils, it is hard to imagine that they were satisfied with his account of apokatastasis. And even if the following councils were gravely mistaken in their interpretation of Constantinople II, apokatastasis dies just as well via Nicea II, which was also ecumenical.
 
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JSRG

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Well we had this conversation in the other thread. The issue here is timing and the action of local councils prior to the ecumenical council. If memory serves, Justinian did not present the ecumenical council with the older list

But whether the council condemned it depends on how the council is understood vis-a-vis the recent local councils, the patriarchs, the pope, etc. We can say that, as far as our records show, the ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn apokatastasis in its canons. But the oldest Churches and witnesses seem to unanimously affirm that the ecumenical council did reject Origenism--including apokatastasis--at Constantinople II. If someone wishes to prefer extant documents and their own hermeneutic over the living Christian traditions, that is their prerogative, but historicism does not automatically win out over these ancient traditions. Besides, if one reads the documents of Constantinople II and the following councils, it is hard to imagine that they were satisfied with his account of apokatastasis. And even if the following councils were gravely mistaken in their interpretation of Constantinople II, apokatastasis dies just as well via Nicea II, which was also ecumenical.
The 15 canons against Origen may have been a condemnation of Origenism, but what matters is what they found problematic in Origenism. Indeed, simply saying some -ism was condemned is not particularly useful, as you have to spell out what was condemned (e.g. someone can say the Council of Trent condemned Calvinism, but you have to look at the what was actually condemned to know which aspects of it were condemned). What is condemned is what was condemned.

I am perfectly willing to accept, or at least not dispute, that the 15 canons against Origen were in some way endorsed by the council, but again what is condemned by the canons are... the things condemned by the canons. As noted the apocastasis condemned in that was a fairly specific one. Which was my point. The statement was that Constantinople II condemned apocastasis, and I noted that it did if we accept those canons, but to look at specifically what this "apocastasis" that they were condemning was, as they quite usefully gave an explicit definition.

I'm also not sure why you're bringing up Nicaea II at all. That's a completely separate issue. Someone was posting about Constantinople II, so I talked about Constantinople II. It doesn't really matter what Nicaea II said.
 
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JSRG

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That thread has been dead for half a year, why should this discussion continue there? It makes little sense.

Returning to a thread that has had no one post in it for half a year that is in a different subforum just to continue a discussion that was in a different thread entirely does not make sense and is needlessly confusing.
 
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zippy2006

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That thread has been dead for half a year, why should this discussion continue there? It makes little sense.

Returning to a thread that has had no one post in it for half a year that is in a different subforum just to continue a discussion that was in a different thread entirely does not make sense and is needlessly confusing.
I find it needless to continue addressing the same tired arguments whenever they pop up anywhere on the forum, when they have already been addressed in a thread dedicated to the topic. Especially when the users are failing to respond in said thread, and instead regurgitating the same old arguments in new threads. It is pointless to carry on the exact same arguments in every thread on the forum. Besides, this thread is really not about Constantinople II. I don't want to further derail it.
 
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JSRG

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I find it needless to continue addressing the same tired arguments whenever they pop up anywhere on the forum, when they have already been addressed in a thread dedicated to the topic.

Except... you did? You "continued addressing" it, you just did it in another topic entirely. Why take the posts I was making in this topic and respond to them in some other topic? Do it here. I've never before seen anyone, when responding to a post, insist on continuing the discussion in some other topic like this.

Especially when the users are failing to respond in said thread, and instead regurgitating the same old arguments in new threads.

"Are failing to respond" (present tense)? That thread was more than six months ago. In any event, I "failed to respond" in that thread way back then because it looked like it had largely run its course with little advantage to be had in continuing it (I do have only so much time). As far as I could tell, you seemed to actually agree with me on most of the points I found to be the major ones anyway.

Further, that older thread is not the same one as this thread. While obviously some similar ground is covered, there are differences and thus it again makes the most sense to reply to keep discussions on threads in their own threads, rather than dredging in things from some other thread into it needlessly where some similar but different topics were being discussed.

It is pointless to carry on the exact same arguments in every thread on the forum. Besides, this thread is really not about Constantinople II. I don't want to further derail it.
Constantinople II was brought up by the person who made the thread, I was only responding to what they said.
 
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zippy2006

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Why take the posts I was making in this topic and respond to them in some other topic?
Because, "I find it needless to continue addressing the same tired arguments whenever they pop up anywhere on the forum, when they have already been addressed in a thread dedicated to the topic." It's pretty simple, actually. I made the transition to the other thread gradually, first linking to it, then referencing it, then posting in it in a way that supplemented what was said in that other thread.

Constantinople II was brought up by the person who made the thread, I was only responding to what they said.
It was brought up in a side comment in the midst of a dialogue about whether judgment is immediate after death. I am not going to derail the thread with many long posts on the basis of this.
 
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JSRG

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Because, "I find it needless to continue addressing the same tired arguments whenever they pop up anywhere on the forum, when they have already been addressed in a thread dedicated to the topic." It's pretty simple, actually. I made the transition to the other thread gradually, first linking to it, then referencing it, then posting in it in a way that supplemented what was said in that other thread.


It was brought up in a side comment in the midst of a dialogue about whether judgment is immediate after death. I am not going to derail the thread with many long posts on the basis of this.
Well, since you seem uninterested in responding to my comments in the thread where I actually made them, I suppose we can leave it there. If anyone is interested in discussing my comments in the actual thread where I made them (that is, this one) rather than oddly insisting I go into a thread from over half a year ago and respond there to a new response to my comments here (which I have never seen anyone insist on before, but there's a first time for everything I guess), maybe I'll have more to say.
 
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JSRG

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...and if anyone wants to discuss the topic in a principled and thorough way, in a thread devoted to the topic, they can check out the thread, "Universal Redemption in the early church," where JSRG's claims are addressed in detail.
The "principled" way, it seems to me, would be to discuss something in the topic it was brought up in, not go to another topic that no one had posted in for more than half a year where different things were being discussed (even if there were similarities, they were not the same). The context there was different, so things being said there do not apply here, and vice versa. This is why it is important to keep things in the topic where they were being discussed. And it's why that's what I've seen everyone do before now, until you started insisting otherwise.

That said, I will make a brief note on your claim that they are "addressed in detail" they hardly are--your "reply" to me in that topic (that is, your reply in that topic to a post I made in this topic) was making a bunch of claims rather irrelevant to the things I was saying here. Maybe they might have had some relevance there, but not here--again, topics are different, trying to drag in things from another topic that are irrelevant in a reply to another is pointless, irritating, and confusing to anyone trying to read along or participate.
 
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zippy2006

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The "principled" way, it seems to me...
As is obvious, it doesn't seem that way to me, and I am not going to entertain a great deal more of the nitpicking and derailing.

...not go to another topic that no one had posted in for more than half a year where different things were being discussed (even if there were similarities, they were not the same). The context there was different, so things being said there do not apply here, and vice versa.
Six months is not a long time; the topics are exactly the same; and your arguments are exactly the same. I say put the redundancy to bed.

...what I've seen everyone do before now...
It's not at all uncommon for redundant tangents to be redirected on internet forums. And even if it were, I have never had much regard for argumentum ad populum.

That said, I will make a brief note on your claim that they are "addressed in detail" they hardly are--your "reply" to me in that topic (that is, your reply in that topic to a post I made in this topic) was making a bunch of claims rather irrelevant to the things I was saying here. Maybe they might have had some relevance there, but not here--again, topics are different, trying to drag in things from another topic that are irrelevant in a reply...
The two topics are so similar that after I drafted the post to you in this thread, I compared it to my last (unanswered) post to you in the other thread. Noticing that the two posts have significant overlap, I just posted it there. You are of course free to continue to ignore the responses to and difficulties with your arguments, but I am not going to recreate the exact same debate here.

The topics are identical. Just look at the first two sentences of your first post from the other thread, "The claim that it was condemned at the Second Council of Constantinople is often alleged, but doesn't seem to be true. I see no condemnation of universalism among its canons."
 
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JSRG

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As is obvious, it doesn't seem that way to me, and I am not going to entertain a great deal more of the nitpicking and derailing.

Quite frankly, there wasn't nitpicking/derailing until you started insisting for some reason that you should reply to a post in this topic in another topic, and that I should go there to debate it, instead of the topic where I was actually making the post.

Certainly, one could still put some blame on me for continuing to respond to you, of course. But it seemed to me everything was going along normally until you decided to reply to my post in a dead topic instead of here. But I suppose that since we both have bias in this area, it is difficult for either of us to ascertain who would be more at fault.

Anyway, I considered taking that post you put in another topic and replying to it here, but I expect then you'd continue to insist we must do it there and would put your reply there, and having my posts be here and your posts be there would be needlessly confusing, both for me and for anyone reading this.

Six months is not a long time; the topics are exactly the same; and your arguments are exactly the same. I say put the redundancy to bed.

No they aren't the same. The other one had some more broader things to it, whereas this (or at least the sub-discussion that was started) was much more specifically about Constantinople II. Some of the stuff you were talking about there, which might have had at least some relevance there, has none here.

And on message boards, six months is a very long time. Obviously "bumping" can occur in some cases, but there's a reason people usually call that a "necro" of a thread, because the thread was previously dead.

It's not at all uncommon for redundant tangents to be redirected on internet forums. And even if it were, I have never had much regard for argumentum ad populum.

While suggestions of taking things elsewhere aren't necessarily uncommon, it's extremely rare to see what you were doing, for a user to absolutely insist that you must go to this other older topic in order to engage in what is going on in this topic and to then post a reply in another topic to a post in the present topic. I've never seen that before.

The two topics are so similar that after I drafted the post to you in this thread, I compared it to my last (unanswered) post to you in the other thread. Noticing that the two posts have significant overlap, I just posted it there. You are of course free to continue to ignore the responses to and difficulties with your arguments, but I am not going to recreate the exact same debate here.

The topics are identical. Just look at the first two sentences of your first post from the other thread, "The claim that it was condemned at the Second Council of Constantinople is often alleged, but doesn't seem to be true. I see no condemnation of universalism among its canons."
And the things you are posting in this topic in reply to me, even if we include the reply post you insisted on putting in another topic rather than this one, I feel are really not actually addressing the points I have made here. Maybe you are misunderstanding me or something, but I feel your arguments attack other things I wasn't saying or bring up claims I feel are irrelevant. Some of them, perhaps, had some relevance in that other topic, but not here--again, another reason to keep things in their actual topic rather than forcing them into a different context.
 
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bbbbbbb

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My understanding is that no one is in hell until after the last judgement, so I would be interested in hearing the sources for the above claimed teaching of the Catholic Church. I can't say that I have come across anything like it in my reading of the Church Fathers.

Likewise the claim that hell is separation from God. My understanding is that the chief torment of hell is for those who want nothing to do with God being unable to escape His presence.
This seems to be a conflation of hell with Purgatory.
 
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prodromos

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I know. My point was that the RCC seems to conflate hell with their doctrine of Purgatory.
It doesn't. The claim above is that dying in mortal sin excludes entry into heaven, whereas they claim that all those in purgatory will eventually enter paradise.
 
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Valletta

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