What "rights" do homosexuals "deserve" to have -- WITH POLL!!

[Catherineanne]

Eh, how do you view the scriptures? Just as a product of the culture?

It is no secret that I do not worship the Bible.

Other than that, I think your questions deserve another thread, don't you?

 

[BigBadWlf]

"[Some] insist that there's absolutely no way you can compare a state barring same-sex marriage to the centuries of slavery and the near century of relentless racial violence and apartheid like discrimination laws they've suffered. But this is a terribly, lop-sided, and self-serving read of history. It also ignores or denies the fact that gays have been murdered, socially stigmatized, and have suffered gender Jim Crow like discrimination in America and countless other countries. In creating a pecking order of oppression, a kind of my oppression is worse than yours, blacks can then pick and choose when and where they will fight discrimination, or worse, to denigrate another group deemed less worthy of support their battle against in discrimination. This is foolhardy, and irresponsible."
Earl Ofari Hutchinson

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice, But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,"
Coretta Scott King



“Discrimination is discrimination, no matter who the victim is, and it is always wrong. There are no ‘special rights’ in America, despite the attempts by many to divide blacks and the gay community with the argument that the latter are seeking some imaginary ‘special rights’ at the expense of blacks.”
Julian Bond – Chair of the NAACP



"Sometimes this question is phrased in a way that plays into the hands of bigots by asking people to rank oppression asking people I've experienced racism, sexism and homophobia. And the worst one is whatever one you're dealing with right now."
Nadine Smith executive director Equality Florida

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Which is why good Christians speak out against hate and discrimination.

It makes no difference if that hate is taking the form of racism or anti-Semitism or attacks on homosexuals

Right, but it doesn't mean allow/respect sin.

 

[Ohioprof]

Right, but it doesn't mean allow/respect sin.

Being gay is not a sin, and loving our spouses is not a sin either.

Even if you believe that other people's marriages are a sin, you have no choice but to accept their marriages. What are you going to do....picket their house?

Different people have different beliefs about what is sin. If something is not illegal, then people have every right to sin all they want, and there isn't anything people who dislike it can do about it. One person's sin is another person's blessing.

 

[Catherineanne]

Right, but it doesn't mean allow/respect sin.

Indeed not. The very day we manage to free our own hearts from sin completely, we are authorised to start telling everyone else how to do the same.

Until then, the rule is, judge not lest ye be judged.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Right, but it doesn't mean allow/respect sin.

The sin of hatred?

The sin of prejudice?

The sin of oppression?

 

[TexasSky]

Very difficult questions.

As a Christian, I believe that marriage is a committment between two human beings, made to each other AND to God, to become one, forming a family, even if the family never grows further.

However, society, LONG AGO, declared that any two heterosexuals who wanted to live together could call it a marriage. They have civil ceremonies all over the place for it, and a lot of them don't even mention committment to God.

In my head, I DO differentiate. A marriage is a holy union and a vow made to God, a wedding is a civil ceremony blessed by the government, that often goes hand in hand with marriage.

Given that we allow adulterous couples to marry, that we allow people whose only interest in one another is lust - to marry, that we don't care if people have never been married before or if they have married and divorced 15 times before - -- it is hard to say that what the government condones as marriage has anything to do with God beyond the fact that Christians still make vows to God while going through the civil ceremony.

Given that - what Homosexuals want is the same thing that other non-Christians who marry have. They want social security benefits from someone they share their life with, they want tax deductions and insurance and all the things society says goes with marriage.

Personally, I'm in favor of saying, "If it isn't a religious thing, don't call it a marriage at all, call it a family-contract," and let ANYONE who is marrying for reasons other than religious reasons participate in THAT, and leave marriage to God.

I don't think homosexuality is God's will, but I don't think it is any less God's will than a lot of heterosexual marriages that we bless are.

I want marriage to be an ordance of God's church, and I want the government to get out of it.

Let the IRS deductions and insurances and sick-leave designations be whoever a person says, "I consider this to be my immediate family," but don't call it a marriage.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Being gay is not a sin, and loving our spouses is not a sin either.

Even if you believe that other people's marriages are a sin, you have no choice but to accept their marriages. What are you going to do....picket their house?

Different people have different beliefs about what is sin. If something is not illegal, then people have every right to sin all they want, and there isn't anything people who dislike it can do about it. One person's sin is another person's blessing.

What do you mean by "accept"? Live with the fact that they do it or say it isn't wrong? "Being" gay isn't a sin, but same-sex sex isn't a sin, as much as me being asexual isn't a sin, but me committing same sex sex would be a sin. Most Christians who accept (NOT worship...) the bible have a good idea what is sin and what isn't, and since I think marriage just to be a sex permit, (Not that it's a bad thing) I see gay marriage as pointless.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

The sin of hatred?

The sin of prejudice?

The sin of oppression?

Are these my sins?

 

[Ohioprof]

What do you mean by "accept"? Live with the fact that they do it or say it isn't wrong? "Being" gay isn't a sin, but same-sex sex isn't a sin, as much as me being asexual isn't a sin, but me committing same sex sex would be a sin. Most Christians who accept (NOT worship...) the bible have a good idea what is sin and what isn't, and since I think marriage just to be a sex permit, (Not that it's a bad thing) I see gay marriage as pointless.

By accept it, I mean simply accept the fact that other people get married whether you think their marriage is sin or not. That doesn't mean you have to agree with their marriage or applaud it, but you cannot prevent it. That's what I mean.

Hmmm, marriage as a sex permit? I don't think that is true. People can have sex all they want without getting married. I think marriage creates a family, a bond between two adults and between those adults and their children. Marriage means making a lifelong commitment to one's spouse and to one's family, including the children. Marriage is more about commitment, in my view, than about benefits, except that children especially benefit from having married parents. Marriage provides children with more stability than they would have with two unmarried adults.

There are benefits of marriage that flow not only to the spouse, but directly to the children, and for that reason, legalizing same-sex marriage is important. Many gay people have children and are raising children together. For those couples especially, marriage is important as a protection for their children. I think it's wrong for our marriage laws to effectively discriminate against the children of same-sex couples by denying our children the benefits and protections of having two legally married parents.

 

[Catherineanne]

Are these my sins?

Yes. They are the sins of mankind.

A Christian is like a recovering alcoholic. We can never claim to be free from sin, just recovering from it.

 

[Ohioprof]

Are these my sins?

You do not seem to me like someone who sins in those ways particularly. It's not for me to judge you or anyone, but you seem like a very caring person who thinks things through. I don't see how one could claim that those are your sins as an individual. But I can't say what anyone else's sins are.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Yes. They are the sins of mankind.

A Christian is like a recovering alcoholic. We can never claim to be free from sin, just recovering from it.

No, no, I mean directly. It seems as if he is attributing those direct things to my character and would like to be certain where I committed said sins so that I may repent. But what you say is true. Thank God for his healing light. @ Ms. Ohioprof: Ah, yeah, but just as much you have to accept that people will accept God's word as what it is and condemn same sex sex. And by "sex permit", I don't mean a "sex permit" with the state, but with God. It's essentially what it is to me.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

You do not seem to me like someone who sins in those ways particularly. It's not for me to judge you or anyone, but you seem like a very caring person who thinks things through. I don't see how one could claim that those are your sins as an individual. But I can't say what anyone else's sins are.

Thank you for your kind words, it's not often I get such a gift.

 

[Ohioprof]

No, no, I mean directly. It seems as if he is attributing those direct things to my character and would like to be certain where I committed said sins so that I may repent. But what you say is true. Thank God for his healing light. @ Ms. Ohioprof: Ah, yeah, but just as much you have to accept that people will accept God's word as what it is and condemn same sex sex. And by "sex permit", I don't mean a "sex permit" with the state, but with God. It's essentially what it is to me.

I do accept that people disagree with me about scripture and about same-sex relationships. I don't really care how other people regard scripture, except when they try to use scripture to justify attacking others or discriminating against others. I do care that people regard same-sex relationships as "sin," only because people try to use that belief to maintain discriminatory laws and policies against us.

 

[Floatingaxe]

You are still missing my point. It does not matter if your points are valid or not. Lincolngreen's original argument is still fallacious.

If I have three arguments, all pointing to the same conclusion, and one of the arguments is fallacious that just means that that specific argument fails. The other arguments may still prove the conclusion. Or they may also be fallacious. Even if all are fallacious, the conclusion may still be true, I just have not proved it.

Of course, in the case of whether the Bible condemns homosexuality, all of the evidence points to the conclusion that it does not. But that is a separate issue from whether lincolngreen's specific argument is fallacious.

You're just building a house of cards. The bible does condemn the sin of homosexuality in various places. It would behoove you to study the Word of God with the view to knowing God, rather than fulfilling your agenda.

 

[Ohioprof]

Thank you for your kind words, it's not often I get such a gift.

You deserve it. You are a thoughtful, kind person who clearly takes her faith seriously, and you should be recognized for that. So I recognize you.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

You deserve it. You are a thoughtful, kind person who clearly takes her faith seriously, and you should be recognized for that. So I recognize you.

I'm a guy! ty though. (I can see how one would see my name as girly..)

 

[BigBadWlf]

You're just building a house of cards. The bible does condemn the sin of homosexuality in various places. It would behoove you to study the Word of God with the view to knowing God, rather than fulfilling your agenda.

The bible condemns the sin of heterosexuality in hundreds of places

 

[Apollo Celestio]

The bible condemns the sin of heterosexuality in hundreds of places

The bible doesn't condemn any orientation. Only acts. Please get your facts straight.