What Power Does Satan Have?

[Mathetes the kerux]

I would suggest that most sin originates from within ourselves. As humans we have the ability to do right and wrong. Some of us do more wrong than right, and some of us do more right that wrong; although all of us still sin at some point. As James states, these desires which lead to sin come from within us and are based on the environment of which we are in.

Satan was created as an adversary (as seen in the Bible) to sorta give some people a 'nudge' in certain situations so God's mercy could be demonstrated and recorded in His Word for all of us to witness and learn from.

-A

Well the original sin was of Satan. He sinned BEFORE Adam and Eve . . . and the original sin of humanity was NOT COAXED FROM WITHIN. It was brought as an external temptation.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

"The term angel does not indicate any "holiness" is involved. The term means messenger and that term is attached to "men as messengers" "holy messengers" and "evil messengers."

I agree...

But how is the term "Men" used in a multifuntional word in reference to Satan?

I agree with you "one sees such terms as men or angels, they should not automatically assume it applies to just humans or holy messengers" to include the devil and his messenger (angel). They are the devils messengers which has nothing to do with angels; this where i see the error.

In reference to "The term men and angels are also applied to EVIL ones who are neither of the former nor were they ever" I would have to see the context and search it out more.

He is talking about the usage of anthropos. It can be applied to both good and evil men. It is a neutral word. Same goes for aggleos. The term does not require GOODNESS . . . therefore it is within the realm of lexical meaning to have Satan as aggleos AND a liar/murderer.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I do not believe that Satan is Lucifer, nor do I believe he is a man; but a spirit. The “man of sin”; is the Adamic nature in all of us. In referring to Matthew 25:41 the last two words should read “his messengers”

Uh the man of sin/lawlessness in Pauline writing refers to a person not the Adamic nature. Sorry.

 

[Ben12]

You would then have to make that arguement on EVERY instance of translation of aggelos . . . but you can't. 99 percent of the time it means a supernatural entity.



actually that is not true. What has happened is a transliteration. Like the word baptism from the Greek baptizo . . . so angel from aggleos. We have imbued the word for centuries with halos and harps and little fat cherubs with wings. Fact is that the encounters with celestial beings that we would call angels usually left fear and amazement.

It is what it is. Paul means celestial being . . . otherwise the statement looses its force.

As for liar/murder and angel . . . see revelation with the revolt in heaven . . . where angels are fallen . . . and Jude and Peter where angels are punished for sin . . . not hard to then have an angel who is BOTH a liar and a murderer. AND Jesus' statement to the disciples about Satan falling from heaven.

It is more then that; are you so locked in your traditions you cannot see beyond them. i(that was the Jews problem) God is not so shallow and naïve as to have such a creature He created pull the wool over His eyes. Satan was created evil because God willed it; He was a murderer because God willed it, as well as a liar because God willed it. God is not omnipotent, omnipotent, omniscience, omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresent; Satan is but a tool in God’s hands.

This argument should be looked at very closely and I do not agree on your percentage by a long shot. No one is saying there are not heavenly beings; I just rather use the word messenger when I see it in scripture; especially when it comes to Satan and His Messengers. See you assume they were angels in heaven already in Revelation; I see them as fallen evil messengers.
Orthodoxy had long taught that Satan was, in the beginning, a high and beautiful archangel in heaven. The theologians and preachers recite over and over how Satan was originally "the anointed cherub that covers ... the most beautiful and wise of all God's creation!" This being was, so they say, the ruler and leader of the angelic beings and apparently led them in their praise of God and shouts of joy ...the greatest being God ever created, one who had unequaled strength, wisdom, beauty, privilege, and authority, and was next to God Himself. This blameless, perfect one, named Lucifer, was created without any form of evil and with the greatest intelligence of any created being. Then, we are told, this Lucifer, suddenly realizing how beautiful and intelligent he was, became inflated with power and pride and his heart was lifted up in rebellion against God. According to the story, Lucifer gathered one-third of the heavenly angels to his cause, mustering an army with which he planned to knock God off His throne and supplant himself as king and god of the universe (talk about given power to the devil) and there was war in heaven! Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today.
Man says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44). In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very midsts of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He has purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!
The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "Adobe not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (ed: Greek form of steko(?)), I keep my standing, or simply, I stand, and the form is (esteken(?)) meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him. The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth was not in him." J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8). This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit - it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned. Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8 W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M T-H-E B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G! Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL.
Believe your traditions or believe the scripture….

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

It is more then that; are you so locked in your traditions you cannot see beyond them. i(that was the Jews problem) God is not so shallow and naïve as to have such a creature He created pull the wool over His eyes. Satan was created evil because God willed it; He was a murderer because God willed it, as well as a liar because God willed it. God is not omnipotent, omnipotent, omniscience, omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresent; Satan is but a tool in God’s hands.

This argument should be looked at very closely and I do not agree on your percentage by a long shot. No one is saying there are not heavenly beings; I just rather use the word messenger when I see it in scripture; especially when it comes to Satan and His Messengers. See you assume they were angels in heaven already in Revelation; I see them as fallen evil messengers.
Orthodoxy had long taught that Satan was, in the beginning, a high and beautiful archangel in heaven. The theologians and preachers recite over and over how Satan was originally "the anointed cherub that covers ... the most beautiful and wise of all God's creation!" This being was, so they say, the ruler and leader of the angelic beings and apparently led them in their praise of God and shouts of joy ...the greatest being God ever created, one who had unequaled strength, wisdom, beauty, privilege, and authority, and was next to God Himself. This blameless, perfect one, named Lucifer, was created without any form of evil and with the greatest intelligence of any created being. Then, we are told, this Lucifer, suddenly realizing how beautiful and intelligent he was, became inflated with power and pride and his heart was lifted up in rebellion against God. According to the story, Lucifer gathered one-third of the heavenly angels to his cause, mustering an army with which he planned to knock God off His throne and supplant himself as king and god of the universe (talk about given power to the devil) and there was war in heaven! Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today.
Man says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44). In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very midsts of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He has purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!
The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "Adobe not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (ed: Greek form of steko(?)), I keep my standing, or simply, I stand, and the form is (esteken(?)) meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him. The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth was not in him." J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8). This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit - it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned. Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8 W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M T-H-E B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G! Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL.
Believe your traditions or believe the scripture….

Again you are creating a false dichotomy. Satan EVEN AS AN ANGEL DOESN'T PULL THE proverbial "wool" OVER GOD'S "eyes."

For some reason your use of the word angel is so ridgid that it includes some sort of preconception of the term that is not in Hebrew NOR Greek.

 

[Ben12]

Again you are creating a false dichotomy. Satan EVEN AS AN ANGEL DOESN'T PULL THE proverbial "wool" OVER GOD'S "eyes."

For some reason your use of the word angel is so ridgid that it includes some sort of preconception of the term that is not in Hebrew NOR Greek.

Is this not what you believe???

Orthodoxy had long taught that Satan was, in the beginning, a high and beautiful archangel in heaven. The theologians and preachers recite over and over how Satan was originally "the anointed cherub that covers ... the most beautiful and wise of all God's creation!" This being was, so they say, the ruler and leader of the angelic beings and apparently led them in their praise of God and shouts of joy ...the greatest being God ever created, one who had unequaled strength, wisdom, beauty, privilege, and authority, and was next to God Himself. This blameless, perfect one, named Lucifer, was created without any form of evil and with the greatest intelligence of any created being. Then, we are told, this Lucifer, suddenly realizing how beautiful and intelligent he was, became inflated with power and pride and his heart was lifted up in rebellion against God. According to the story, Lucifer gathered one-third of the heavenly angels to his cause, mustering an army with which he planned to knock God off His throne and supplant himself as king and god of the universe (talk about given power to the devil) and there was war in heaven! Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today

 

[Ben12]

Again you are creating a false dichotomy. Satan EVEN AS AN ANGEL DOESN'T PULL THE proverbial "wool" OVER GOD'S "eyes."

For some reason your use of the word angel is so ridgid that it includes some sort of preconception of the term that is not in Hebrew NOR Greek.

Your not addressing this statement except with spam.

Man says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44). In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very midsts of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He has purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!
The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "Adobe not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (ed: Greek form of steko(?)), I keep my standing, or simply, I stand, and the form is (esteken(?)) meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him. The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth was not in him." J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8). This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit - it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned. Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8 W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M T-H-E B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G! Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL.

 

[mattlock73]

Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today

Luck? God needed luck to win?

 

[Ben12]

Luck? God needed luck to win?

My point; I was being sarcastic; in reference to the false doctrine that Lucifer is Satan

 

[mattlock73]

My point; I was being sarcastic; in reference to the false doctrine that Lucifer is Satan

Doesn't matter what name you call him by as far as i am concerned. He is a real being, not a personification of sin, and he does have power, although it is limited.

 

[Ben12]

Doesn't matter what name you call him by as far as i am concerned. He is a real being, not a personification of sin, and he does have power, although it is limited.

Names are very important in scripture; it has been said there are over two hundred different names for God in the Bible. The name speaks of the nature and character the authority. In that our God is so marvelously great, He has many names, each revealing to us another facet of His nature and character, etc. We ascribe unto Him many titles: He is Wonderful, Counselor, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, etc. Then we have all the compound names of Jehovah-- as our Healer, our Banner, our Righteousness, our Provider, our Defender etc. All of these names and titles help us to identify Him to us. But now He states that He will make a people high above all nations "IN NAME." He is ready to share His identity with humanity-- it is utterly awesome and amazing!

I love the story and it is so true. Jacob a supplanter a deceiver becomes a prince of God. Another name I think is awesome is Benoni. But in Bible times names were chosen with great care and were frequently given by prophetic utterance or under divine inspiration so that the names actually revealed the nature, character, attributes, and destiny of the person, and thus carried a message to all who spoke or used that name. (This goes for the names of God which has been said there are over 200)

In a very real sense the "name" of a being is regarded as being a real part of the person. In a certain sense there can be no separation whatsoever between a man’s name and what he is as a person. In the scriptures the innermost being of a man is expressed in his name. That is why Esau declares of his conniving brother, "Is he not rightly named Jacob (supplanter)? For he has supplanted me these two times" (Gen. 27:36). After wresting with the angel of the Lord, however, Jacob underwent a change of attitude and alteration of character which was accompanied by a change of name. Having seen the "face" or presence of God he was no longer the same man that he had been before his encounter with the Lord.Since name and character are absolutely identified there had to be a change in Jacob’s appellation! The angel of the Lord, therefore, said, "Thy name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel (Prince): for as a prince thou hast power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (Gen. 32:28).

The Names of the Devil The Tempter -- Genesis 3:1; Matthew 4:1-11; The Perverter of God’s Word -- Matthew 4:11; The Opposer of God’s Work -- Zechariah 3:1-2; The Hinderer of God’s Servant -- l Thessalonians 2:18; The Hinderer of the Spread of the Gospel -- ll Corinthians 4:2-4; The Snarer of the Wicked -- l Timothy 3:7, The One who Desires the Nations -- Revelation 16:13-14; The Bearer of Sin into the World -- Genesis 3:1-7; The Whole World Lies in His Lap -- l John 5:19; The Prince of this World -- John 16:11; The Prince of the Power of the Air -- Ephesians 2:2; The god of this Age -- ll Corinthians 4:4; The prince of demons -- Luke 11:15, The Old Serpent -- Revelation 12:9nor

You may not care what names he is called; but to ignore his name; because your doctrine is not big enough to contain the truth; says a lot about your faith.

 

[mattlock73]

You may not care what names he is called; but to ignore his name; because your doctrine is not big enough to contain the truth; says a lot about your faith.

Please support this ridiculous claim that whatever doctrine you have seen me quote is not big enough to contain the truth.

He is the Deciever, the Prince of Lies, do you think he is going to proclaim that to the world? Of course not. He is far subtler and deceptive than that. It matters not what you call him, the being known as Satan, Lucifer or the Devil, as well as the myriad of other names given to him in the bible and throughout history, is one in the same. He is no more a personification of sin than God is a personification of goodness.

 

[k2svpete]

It never ceases to amaze me the number of times people use Ezekiel 28 to justify the common perception of satan. The Prince of Tyre was a real person with a real kingdom. It is quite clear that it was a prophecy against him, in a list of prophecies against several people/kingdoms.

Another bewildering thing is the inconsistency, even among those who subscribe to the popular satan view, about Rev 12. As it is a book of prophecy, how can it be relating to past events (prior to the 1st century).

The teachings of the Gospel and all related doctrine are to be found in the Old Testament, what else did Jesus and the Apostles teach out of? If you can't find a doctrine in the Old Testament, then it's a false one.

 

[Ben12]

It never ceases to amaze me the number of times people use Ezekiel 28 to justify the common perception of satan. The Prince of Tyre was a real person with a real kingdom. It is quite clear that it was a prophecy against him, in a list of prophecies against several people/kingdoms.

Another bewildering thing is the inconsistency, even among those who subscribe to the popular satan view, about Rev 12. As it is a book of prophecy, how can it be relating to past events (prior to the 1st century).

The teachings of the Gospel and all related doctrine are to be found in the Old Testament, what else did Jesus and the Apostles teach out of? If you can't find a doctrine in the Old Testament, then it's a false one.

Amen; The OT conceals Christ the NT reveals Christ. Revelation is a Book of Spiritual Symbolisms not a book of prophecy; it is the most spiritual Book in the Bible. If you do not get the symbols right; you are missing the mark; this is especially true with names.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

 

[Ben12]

Please support this ridiculous claim that whatever doctrine you have seen me quote is not big enough to contain the truth.

He is the Deciever, the Prince of Lies, do you think he is going to proclaim that to the world? Of course not. He is far subtler and deceptive than that. It matters not what you call him, the being known as Satan, Lucifer or the Devil, as well as the myriad of other names given to him in the bible and throughout history, is one in the same. He is no more a personification of sin than God is a personification of goodness.

Support it; your eyes are closed that is obvious to anything outside your religious preconceived box. If Lucifer is the Devil then show me in scripture; that simple. Don’t quote some long dead doctrine or creed; show it to me in scripture. All I have seen from all of you so far is traditional understanding with no facts. (Just like the Jews) You say it does not matter what you call him; I disagree and have showed you how relevant a name is in scripture.

What I see in most religions today is closed minded religious people no longer seeking truth, they already have the truth……. They are never wrong; there is plenty of that going on in religion today; how about adding carnal, bias, and the list goes on. I am not much of a literalist in anything to do with God's Word (His Word is Spirit and Life); but I know one simple fact; it at least has to be there. God hides himself from man be they carnal or religious....

I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in. It is a progressive Word; and not the dead letter.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Another symbolism water being God’s Word… I have a cistern in my basement and it holds no water. All that is left is four hard walls (religion).

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Is this not what you believe???

Orthodoxy had long taught that Satan was, in the beginning, a high and beautiful archangel in heaven. The theologians and preachers recite over and over how Satan was originally "the anointed cherub that covers ... the most beautiful and wise of all God's creation!" This being was, so they say, the ruler and leader of the angelic beings and apparently led them in their praise of God and shouts of joy ...the greatest being God ever created, one who had unequaled strength, wisdom, beauty, privilege, and authority, and was next to God Himself. This blameless, perfect one, named Lucifer, was created without any form of evil and with the greatest intelligence of any created being. Then, we are told, this Lucifer, suddenly realizing how beautiful and intelligent he was, became inflated with power and pride and his heart was lifted up in rebellion against God. According to the story, Lucifer gathered one-third of the heavenly angels to his cause, mustering an army with which he planned to knock God off His throne and supplant himself as king and god of the universe (talk about given power to the devil) and there was war in heaven! Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today

I believe that Satan is a fallen angel . . . but the scriptures give no more sure indication than this. The Ezekiel and Isaiah passages are tenuous at best.

But this still doesn't change the fact that your concept of the Greek aggelos is way to narrow . . . your concept for some reason or another keeps you from seeing Satan as an angel because of some thought that aggelos can only be applied to God's angels. It is much broader than that.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Your not addressing this statement except with spam.

Man says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44). In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very midsts of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He has purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!
The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "Adobe not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (ed: Greek form of steko(?)), I keep my standing, or simply, I stand, and the form is (esteken(?)) meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him. The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth was not in him." J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8). This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit - it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned. Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8 W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M T-H-E B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G! Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL.

Make whatever conclusions you want about Satan's origin . . . and whoever else . . . from the beginning he was XYZ well he was also an angel. Scripture says he was . . . he was. Was he created holy . . . I don't know because scripture doesn't tell us. But what scripture does say, he is a real person (not a anthropomorphism for an abstract concept of sin) and that he was an angel at one point . . . as were his followers. Period.

You have a problem with the articulation of some orthodox understandings . . . fine. I don't espouse them because they are hermeneutically untenable. But part of what they assert is true . . . Satan was an angel. Work that into your schematic somewhere without intellectual assent to the position that you contend against . . . fine. But you need to include it for it is in the Scriptures.

Perhaps a reference to the divine foreknowledge of God . . . or the plan of redemption from all eternity and Satan's ploy within it. Whatever.

But you must deal with this: ALL of God's creation was GOOD on the seventh day (including Satan and his angels) and sometime thereafter Satan fell from his "goodness" status and tempted Adam and Eve into his little cosmic attempt at a coup.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

My point; I was being sarcastic; in reference to the false doctrine that Lucifer is Satan

No one who holds to the position that you are attacking would contend that God was ever in jeopardy of loosing. That is a strawman.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

It never ceases to amaze me the number of times people use Ezekiel 28 to justify the common perception of satan. The Prince of Tyre was a real person with a real kingdom. It is quite clear that it was a prophecy against him, in a list of prophecies against several people/kingdoms.

Another bewildering thing is the inconsistency, even among those who subscribe to the popular satan view, about Rev 12. As it is a book of prophecy, how can it be relating to past events (prior to the 1st century).

The teachings of the Gospel and all related doctrine are to be found in the Old Testament, what else did Jesus and the Apostles teach out of? If you can't find a doctrine in the Old Testament, then it's a false one.

I agree with your contention about the Ezekiel passage . . . but not about Revelation. Revelation refers to the event of the Christ child's birth . . . which if you give a late date of authorship of the book, makes the event some 90 years (+/-) in the past . . . and even a early date makes the event some 60 years (+/-) in the past. Either way, Revelation DOES include the past.

This is actually a common error for those who see prophecy as only PREDICTIVE . . . it is not. Prophetes simply means to speak while inspired . . . so a prophecy MAY contain foretelling (prediction of future events) but it does NOT of necessity.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Amen; The OT conceals Christ the NT reveals Christ. Revelation is a Book of Spiritual Symbolisms not a book of prophecy; it is the most spiritual Book in the Bible. If you do not get the symbols right; you are missing the mark; this is especially true with names.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

Revelation is APOCALYPTIC . . . it is a TYPE of prophecy. Same with portions of Daniel.

Anyway, it is indeed proleptic in that it anticipates the future return of Christ.