What of these passages, do they make you think?

[from scratch]

Thanks BobRyan for answering. You show that you just agree with what the passage I mentioned, from Isaiah 56, gets across. So it does not have further explanation to give.

Cribstyl, your response, from the other view, does not deal with what I brought up about that passage. The response does not show with passages that there cannot be Sabbath observance anymore, and leaves the passage as I mention showing what there is in the end times, for foreigners as well, with it shown they are grafted in, joining to Yahweh to serve him and love his name.

Larry, I am certainly not a computer operating autonomously to generate Sabbath Spam. I have made many posts, and they can be checked. I have frequently responded to others, and mostly it does not deal with anything of the Sabbath, and I rarely have mentioned the Sabbath. But I have brought up a question about this passage for it, and I have not seen it effectively explained away. I see you say how this Sabbath can't be observed by gentiles. Where is anything showing those things you say? But this passage I mention is not dealt with, showing in it that it will still be maintained in the end times, and other passages to make the contrary point that you say are not being shown, just those saying how the observation was required of the people of Israel, the people of Yahweh God. And it is not giving recognition that gentile people were permitted to come into their covenant, it was done too, as by Egyptians that joined the people of Israel led by God in the Exodus, and by Rahab and by Ruth. So they too became people of God. Converts to Judaism were allowed, the Jews were not to discourage it, and did not say some of the observations were not for them. In fact, Jews were offended by the Christian faith going out of Judaism to include Gentiles without having them become Jewish. Those who would become Jewish would be having to observe everything they did, Sabbaths and all. The response to those in Christ that were influenced by that thinking, with the leading of the Spirit of God, was that there is no obligation in Christ for gentiles to become Jewish, but nothing was said for Jews to no longer observe as Jews. And besides doing things they were told from Christ and from his apostles, the gentiles along with the Jewish believers in Christ were to avoid anything involving idolatry, avoid meat with any blood or from animals that were strangled, as well as avoiding sexual immorality.

So whether you think I am real or not, the passage I mention still isn't dealt with to show it does not mean that the Sabbath will be observed, by people of Israel and foreigners who join with them, in the end. And I do know of scripture speaking prophetically of a time when those remaining of the people of Israel will all be saved, the time of the vision of God's holy mountain is in the time of Christ's return, and salvation is through him, and through Israel others will be brought to Christ.

Christianity isn't Judaism.

 

[from scratch]

You are welcome!

And also the fact that the Sabbath was binding on all of mankind - all the saints as well in OT (and in NT) is agreed to by a wide range of sources - even the following pro-Sunday sources admit this - as you see in my signature line.

Hog wash!!!

 

[from scratch]

The Isaiah 56 chapter has both a present tense promise and a future predictive statement.

The Isaiah 66:23 text is most certainly future to the cross and even future to the 2nd coming - So the future application is absolutely in Isaiah's text.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to Worship" in the New heavens and New Earth.

Sabbath for mankind in the OT - Including Gentiles Is 56:3-7

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND".

Not even the Jews would agree with you.

 

[from scratch]

Does Mark 2:27 say "mankind"?

Nope! The original text says the man - not a or every.

 

[from scratch]

That is a self-conflicted claim - if the Gentiles are welcomed in the Ot - then the OT context for Sabbath included both Jews and Gentiles - all ... in both NT and OT.

Which means theses Bible texts prove that the Sabbath applied to all mankind just s the BCF and WCF and D.L. Moody and the list of pro-sunday sources claim.

For a Gentile to participate in the covenant made with Israel at Sinai they must become as a Jew and be circumcised or they're not welcome to participate according to the Book of the Law. Thus a Gentile has become a has been Gentile no longer a Gentile but as one born in the land - an Israeli.

 

[from scratch]

That post was in response to the point you made about who God was speaking to in Gen 2:3 when he first gave the Sabbath Command.

And as we all know this point of "origin" and who God is dealing with is so obvious - even the pro-sunday sources listed below can admit it clearly.

There's no Sabbath command in Gen 2.

 

[LarryP2]

duplicate post

 

[LarryP2]

Larry, I am certainly not a computer operating autonomously to generate Sabbath Spam. I have made many posts, and they can be checked. I have frequently responded to others, and mostly it does not deal with anything of the Sabbath, and I rarely have mentioned the Sabbath. But I have brought up a question about this passage for it, and I have not seen it effectively explained away. I see you say how this Sabbath can't be observed by gentiles. Where is anything showing those things you say? But this passage I mention is not dealt with, showing in it that it will still be maintained in the end times, and other passages to make the contrary point that you say are not being shown, just those saying how the observation was required of the people of Israel, the people of Yahweh God.

I never accused you of being the Adventist Sabbath Product spam infomercials spewing computer. But just come back to this thread in a year and you will see not one single point acknowledged, let alone discussed, let alone refuted by the Adventist Sabbath Product spam infomercials. So here goes absolutely nothing:

"Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a).
.....
Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

I see you say how this Sabbath can't be observed by gentiles. Where is anything showing those things you say?

How hard did you look for these clear statements of Judaism opposing Gentile Sabbath-Keeping? Not very, since they are all over the internet.

I have been studying the Talmud and Responsa rulings for over a year: They are loaded with denouncements of Gentiles keeping any part of the Mosaic Law.

Judaism's prohibition against unconverted Gentiles keeping the Mosaic Laws escalated radically after the Resurrection. As a side note, the way Jesus Christ was treated was fresh on the Apostle's minds. Gentile Christians were despised far beyond other mere Gentiles, and were subject to the most intense hatred imageanable:

"The ultimate in infamy in Talmudic Judaism is Christ, and the target of all Talmudic hatred is not just "the people who are like an ass; slaves who are considered the property of the master. (Keth. 111a) The docile "asses" willing to be saddled and used will be used as burden bearers for the masters. But of all the recalcitrant "asses" the Christians are the most insanely hated and loathed because their doctrines are the reverse of every Talmudic doctrine. They rank not just as animals like the rest of non-Talmudic humanity, but as vermin to be eradicate. Language is exhausted to find more foul and hated names for Christians in the Talmud."

"Jesus in Hell: Where His punishment is "boiling hot sperm," Gittin 57a....."

The Jewish Talmud insults to Jesus and Gentiles.

So, Gentile Christians kept the Sabbath and went to the Synagogues to worship, did they? Boy, those statements above certainly threw out a warm greeting! Here's the problems:

1). The Apostles had the crucifixion fresh in their minds. Judaism had just murdered their leader. Christians were being hunted vigorously by the Jews. When they were caught, they were stoned.

2). Gentiles have always been prohibited from Torah study and Sabbath Keeping. .Paul, an expert on Jewish law knew this.

3). Acts 15 reflects the clear mandate that Gentile Christians would not be circumcised, which is the first step of converting to Judaism, which is necessary before one reads the Torah and keeps the Sabbaths and all of the other Holy Days. Judaism is emphatic: All 613 Mitzvot are equal and all are binding. The Sabbath is just one of 613, and in no way allowed to be elevated as more important than the rest of the Mitzvot. You keep one, you keep them all. The Mosaic Law has NEVER been interpreted by Judaism to allow the Ten Commandments to be separated from the rest of the 613 Mitzvot:

"All 613 of those mitzvot are equally sacred, equally binding and equally the word of G-d. All of these mitzvot are treated as equally important, because human beings, with our limited understanding of the universe, have no way of knowing which mitzvot are more important in the eyes of the Creator. Pirkei Avot, a book of the Mishnah, teaches "Be as meticulous in performing a 'minor' mitzvah as you are with a 'major' one, because you don't know what kind of reward you'll get for various mitzvot."

Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"

The Didache, which is dated by some experts to AD 50, specifically orders Christians to worship on "The Lord's Day."
http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html

4). Lastly, Eastern Orthodoxy (300 million members, 2,000 years old) adamantly assists that the Resurrection was commemorated on Sundays and Easter in the First year after the Resurrection. The Seventh Day Adventist Church has NEVER even mentioned this assertion in ANY of its literature, let alone refuted it. It simply is not mentioned in the Great Controversy, which has a theme that the Roman Pope unilaterally "changed Saturday to Sunday." It seems to be the SDA position to never let facts get in the way of a good story.

5). Simply put, Seventh Day Adventism is a non-christian cult whose members achieve Salvation by perfect Sabbath observance. Seventh Day Adventism rejects the Resurrection, which has NOTHING to do with their Salvation. This link is to an Ex-Seventh Day Adventist who analyzes the Church's repudiation of the Easter event:
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2011/1/easterisabigdeal.html

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior."

Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

6). Seventh Day Adventism is just plain and simple the revival of the Ebionite Heresy, which was denounced early and often by the early Christians. Sabbath Keeping was seen as evidence that the practitioner had not received faith. Both Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr denounced Sabbath Keeping by Christians:

"Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace."
....
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure....."
CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Magnesians (St. Ignatius)

Note: Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of both Peter and John. He became the Bishop of Antioch when Peter went to Rome. He was murdered by the Romans in around AD 107

"Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this, that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do?"
.....
[this is the response of the Jew in Justin Martyr's "Dialogues with Trypho] "But this is what we are most at a loss about: that you, professing to be pious, and supposing yourselves better than others, are not in any particular separated from them, and do not alter your mode of living from the nations, in that you observe no festivals or Sabbaths, and do not have the rite of circumcision; and further, resting your hopes on a man that was crucified...."
....
"For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you....."
......
CHAPTER XXI -- SABBATHS WERE INSTITUTED ON ACCOUNT OF THE PEOPLE'S SINS, AND NOT FOR A WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
.....
"Moreover, that God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and impose on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness......"
......
"Wherefore, Trypho, I will proclaim to you, and to those who wish to become proselytes, the divine message which I heard from that man. Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or Of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now, after that, according to the will of God, Jesus Christ the Son of God has been born without sin, of a virgin sprung from the stock of Abraham."
Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

Fred V B, I never referred to you as the automatic Sabbath Spam Computer. The following points are addressed to it, not you.

So let the automatic computer-generated Adventist Sabbath Product spam infomercials roll with the usual argument that has been repeated thousands of time that the Catholic Catechism and the Baptist Confession of Faith support 7th Day Sabbath keeping. This post will be heavily buried with 100's of Adventist Sabbath Product spam infomercials and if you come back in a year, you will not one single point even slightly acknowledged, let alone addressed by the Sabbath Spammer, let alone refuted. You will see this heavily-documented post referred to by the Adventist Sabbath Product spam infomercials computer as a "factless rant."

For 2,000 years, Christianity has harshly denounced Sabbath Keeping and has done so early and often.

Simply put, Sabbath Keeping is a non-Christian repudiation of the Resurrection.

The Resurrection is the central doctrine of Christianity, nothing else is even close.

 

[FredVB]

"Inasmuch as the Jews had their own distinct jurisdiction, it would have been unwise to reveal their laws to the Gentiles, for such knowledge might have operated against the Jews in their opponents' courts. Hence the Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a).
.....
Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

How hard did you look for these clear statements of Judaism opposing Gentile Sabbath-Keeping? Not very, since they are all over the internet.

I have been studying the Talmud and Responsa rulings for over a year: They are loaded with denouncements of Gentiles keeping any part of the Mosaic Law.

Judaism's prohibition against unconverted Gentiles keeping the Mosaic Laws escalated radically after the Resurrection. As a side note, the way Jesus Christ was treated was fresh on the Apostle's minds. Gentile Christians were despised far beyond other mere Gentiles, and were subject to the most intense hatred imageanable:

"The ultimate in infamy in Talmudic Judaism is Christ, and the target of all Talmudic hatred is not just "the people who are like an ass; slaves who are considered the property of the master. (Keth. 111a) The docile "asses" willing to be saddled and used will be used as burden bearers for the masters. But of all the recalcitrant "asses" the Christians are the most insanely hated and loathed because their doctrines are the reverse of every Talmudic doctrine. They rank not just as animals like the rest of non-Talmudic humanity, but as vermin to be eradicate. Language is exhausted to find more foul and hated names for Christians in the Talmud."

"Jesus in Hell: Where His punishment is "boiling hot sperm," Gittin 57a....."

The Jewish Talmud insults to Jesus and Gentiles.

So, Gentile Christians kept the Sabbath and went to the Synagogues to worship, did they? Boy, those statements above certainly threw out a warm greeting! Here's the problems:

1). The Apostles had the crucifixion fresh in their minds. Judaism had just murdered their leader. Christians were being hunted vigorously by the Jews. When they were caught, they were stoned.

2). Gentiles have always been prohibited from Torah study and Sabbath Keeping. .Paul, an expert on Jewish law knew this.

3). Acts 15 reflects the clear mandate that Gentile Christians would not be circumcised, which is the first step of converting to Judaism, which is necessary before one reads the Torah and keeps the Sabbaths and all of the other Holy Days. Judaism is emphatic: All 613 Mitzvot are equal and all are binding. The Sabbath is just one of 613, and in no way allowed to be elevated as more important than the rest of the Mitzvot. You keep one, you keep them all. The Mosaic Law has NEVER been interpreted by Judaism to allow the Ten Commandments to be separated from the rest of the 613 Mitzvot:

"All 613 of those mitzvot are equally sacred, equally binding and equally the word of G-d. All of these mitzvot are treated as equally important, because human beings, with our limited understanding of the universe, have no way of knowing which mitzvot are more important in the eyes of the Creator. Pirkei Avot, a book of the Mishnah, teaches "Be as meticulous in performing a 'minor' mitzvah as you are with a 'major' one, because you don't know what kind of reward you'll get for various mitzvot."

Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"

The Didache, which is dated by some experts to AD 50, specifically orders Christians to worship on "The Lord's Day."
The Didache - The Complete Text

4). Lastly, Eastern Orthodoxy (300 million members, 2,000 years old) adamantly assists that the Resurrection was commemorated on Sundays and Easter in the First year after the Resurrection. The Seventh Day Adventist Church has NEVER even mentioned this assertion in ANY of its literature, let alone refuted it. It simply is not mentioned in the Great Controversy, which has a theme that the Roman Pope unilaterally "changed Saturday to Sunday." It seems to be the SDA position to never let facts get in the way of a good story.

5). Simply put, Seventh Day Adventism is a non-christian cult whose members achieve Salvation by perfect Sabbath observance. Seventh Day Adventism rejects the Resurrection, which has NOTHING to do with their Salvation. This link is to an Ex-Seventh Day Adventist who analyzes the Church's repudiation of the Easter event:
Why Easter is a Big Deal

The Resurrection is the central doctrine of Christianity, nothing else is even close.

So indeed there was intolerance from Jews of gentile believers observing or so much as resting on the Sabbath. That is from the Talmud and what was written based on it, I am sure more recently than in Bible times. So now I am aware of it, I am not much concerned with that. These hateful things are not from the word of God or based on it. The discussion should be based on Bible passages.

The gentile believers would have gone to synagogues on the Sabbath. It was with what apostles said, with the Spirit of God, applying it to gentile believers, in Acts 15:21:

"For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

It would have been beyond useless to say this if it was not for gentile believers who were discussed there to do.

1). Christian believers were indeed persecuted and some even killed. This was the case in the first century of Christianity, and in some centuries after that, even as it is now in a few places. Stephen was subject to this being true, and also the believers in Jerusalem, from Saul, though in this Stephen and the rest were all Jewish believers. So this was from unbelieving Jews, it was also from gentiles in a position for that throughout the empire

2). A Bible passage for this if it were true has yet to be shown, without it how is it Paul "knew this"?

3). I was not bringing up circumcision. I brought up the question about Isaiah 56:1-2, 6-8, which speaks of non-Jews, foreigners, who not defiling the Sabbath will be brought to Yahweh God's holy mountain, so this is in the end time. If there is disagreement, then what I ask is how this is not so, from scripture.

4). and 5). You make an argument against Seventh Day Adventism, which does not concern me, you have been making an assumption that I am associated with it, when I have just raised the question about those verses in Isaiah 56; this is in the Bible, so I should be able to ask about it, and further to expect those taking a position to have scripture to back them up.

Yes, Gentiles could be brought into the covenant with the nation of Israel in the old days. It's speaking of Israel's covenant including sabbaths and sacrifices and alters and all that stuff. Where do you get the idea of this passage being about latter times and Christians?
It's interesting how seventh day proponents love to quote one or two hazy passages from apocalyptic and prophetic books of the Bible instead of the clear teachings of the Epistles.

This was answered anyway, but it shows that this was far in the future of when it was written, even the the latter times, with God saying, "My salvation is about to come, and My righteousness to be revealed" and "Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations." This is still yet to happen. I do not identify myself as a seventh day proponent, I was asking a legitimate Bible question, which is not yet adequately answered when what I see in the passage is being dismissed.

We get it, you guys are experts on prophesies. (because you have an extra prophet)
If you or BobRyan had explained from Isa 56, about when God accepted burnt offering and sacrifices, you might understand what covenant age this prophesy is talking about.
All you see is the word Sabbath and you can add commentary as if covenants don't specify what God requires for righteousness.
The mention of God accepting burnt offerings and that His righteousness as 'soon to be revealed", puts that prophesy before God revealed righteousness by faith through Paul.
The fact being reveal to you today by clear scriptures is this truth; God's revealed righteousness is the gospel of Jesus Christ. God requires that men are to have faith. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
By failing to understand that the cross bridges the gap between the covenants
You have no choice but to serve under requirements of the law. The shameful fact is; You cant find Sabbath or the law as requirements under the New Covenant.
God said that no one would teach their neighbor what to believe, and only He would write directions and laws on every heart.

I am, frankly, not Seventh Day Adventist, if this is not already clear, at it is here alleged, as there is no extra prophet for me. My concern is with Bible passages. I can say it again if it needs to be heard. Nothing else is concerning me. As far as sacrifices, Jesus Christ fulfills all of the requirements for that. So I speak from a position of the new covenant, with still asking about these passages.

 

[LarryP2]

I am, frankly, not Seventh Day Adventist, if this is not already clear, at it is here alleged, as there is no extra prophet for me. My concern is with Bible passages. I can say it again if it needs to be heard. Nothing else is concerning me. As far as sacrifices, Jesus Christ fulfills all of the requirements for that. So I speak from a position of the new covenant, with still asking about these passages.

Colossians 2:13-18 says what it means and means what it says. The idea that Jesus came to die and be Resurrected so that we could keep the Sabbath better is just preposterous trash.

Sabbath Keeping was repeatedly condemned by Paul in the Book of Galatians and the Book of Romans.

 

[FredVB]

Colossians 2:13-18 says what it means and means what it says. The idea that Jesus came to die and be Resurrected so that we could keep the Sabbath better is just preposterous trash.
Sabbath Keeping was repeatedly condemned by Paul in the Book of Galatians and the Book of Romans.

Who is saying Jesus came to die and be resurrected so that we could keep the Sabbath, even better? It certainly is not I. I am with the real Christian perspective, that in Christ no one is placed to be spiritually judged under the law, yes it is Christ who bore that, for those who would be his.

We can look more at the scriptures. In Colossians 2:13-18, there is not condemnation for those observing rest on sabbaths. The verses show that what was against against us from judgment under God's law is fully dealt with. Verse 16 specifically shows that no one among true believers should be judging others. Though I see it done here and there, I am not doing it, or calling for it. And so it is understood that the full reality is in Christ. In Romans, in chapter 14, where this is discussed, it is said let each be convinced in his own mind, and in verses 10 and 13, again, to not judge one another. In Galatians, seeking to be justified with the law is discussed, not any rest that any will have with sabbaths. This rest is not necessarily about being justified, it would be wrong if any are doing that. So it is wrong to say that how sabbath is observed is condemned.

With it not condemned, and some gentiles anyway who become believers still observing the day of rest, how is what is shown, mentioned in this thread, from Isaiah 56, not about that being done, with it shown for what happens after Christ would come, and this viewed highly, not with it condemned? This is what I have asked, from the beginning of this thread. I could be involved in other discussions for other topics, this just isn't really answered yet.

 

[LarryP2]

Who is saying Jesus came to die and be resurrected so that we could keep the Sabbath, even better? It certainly is not I. I am with the real Christian perspective, that in Christ no one is placed to be spiritually judged under the law, yes it is Christ who bore that, for those who would be his.

We can look more at the scriptures. In Colossians 2:13-18, there is not condemnation for those observing rest on sabbaths. The verses show that what was against against us from judgment under God's law is fully dealt with. Verse 16 specifically shows that no one among true believers should be judging others. Though I see it done here and there, I am not doing it, or calling for it. And so it is understood that the full reality is in Christ. In Romans, in chapter 14, where this is discussed, it is said let each be convinced in his own mind, and in verses 10 and 13, again, to not judge one another. In Galatians, seeking to be justified with the law is discussed, not any rest that any will have with sabbaths. This rest is not necessarily about being justified, it would be wrong if any are doing that. So it is wrong to say that how sabbath is observed is condemned.

With it not condemned, and some gentiles anyway who become believers still observing the day of rest, how is what is shown, mentioned in this thread, from Isaiah 56, not about that being done, with it shown for what happens after Christ would come, and this viewed highly, not with it condemned? This is what I have asked, from the beginning of this thread. I could be involved in other discussions for other topics, this just isn't really answered yet.

Sabbath Keeping has been denounced as a non-Christian heresy since the beginning of Christianity. St. Ignatius of Antioch, trained by both St. Peter and St. John, denounced Sabbath Keeping as the Judaizing heresy and the Ebionite Heresy. Sabbath Keeping is incompatible with Christianity's focus on the Resurrection:

"Seventh Day Adventists deny the resurrection by observing the Sabbath. We come to church on Sunday, the Lord's Day, to worship Him who "died for our sins, and rose again for our justification." We worship a living Savior, and with thanksgiving, can sing:
"He lives, He lives, Christ Jesus lives today!"
If I worship Christ on Saturday I deny that His work is finished, that He is a resurrected, living Savior. -

Why I Am A Baptist And Not A Seventh Day Adventist

 

[FredVB]

I can fairly say, none of this concerns me. I asked about how the certain Bible passages could be explained, or explained away, and though I said I am concerned with what is said in the Bible and nothing else about it concerns me, responses show that nothing in the Bible is found to be a basis to explain the passage is not talking about gentile believers after Christ comes. What is shown with some who are cited in your post shows a prejudice for one perspective. You show an agenda to show how bad Seventh Day Adventism is. This does not apply to this thread and what I have been posting. I made it clear that I am not Seventh Day Adventist with what I said.

What you said, if I worship Christ on Saturday, makes no sense, if it is not with a false gospel. If I do, I do not see how it will make me deny Christ or his work. It should not change me or remove me from Christ at all. With having faith in him with the true gospel, I have him to always be in him. This is true with however much of works I do or obedience I have.

 

[LarryP2]

I can fairly say, none of this concerns me. I asked about how the certain Bible passages could be explained, or explained away, and though I said I am concerned with what is said in the Bible and nothing else about it concerns me, responses show that nothing in the Bible is found to be a basis to explain the passage is not talking about gentile believers after Christ comes. What is shown with some who are cited in your post shows a prejudice for one perspective. You show an agenda to show how bad Seventh Day Adventism is. This does not apply to this thread and what I have been posting. I made it clear that I am not Seventh Day Adventist with what I said.

What you said, if I worship Christ on Saturday, makes no sense, if it is not with a false gospel. If I do, I do not see how it will make me deny Christ or his work. It should not change me or remove me from Christ at all. With having faith in him with the true gospel, I have him to always be in him. This is true with however much of works I do or obedience I have.

I have written a three-part analysis of Acts 15, which recites the Decree from the Council of Jerusalem, which established that NO Gentile Christian would follow the Mosaic Law. NO Gentile Christian could or would have kept the Sabbath, because to do so would incur the Death Sentence under Mosaic Law. Please read what I have written. It is indisputable that Gentiles have only been subject to the 7 Noahide Commandments since the beginning of Judaism. Nothing could be clearer. No Gentiles kept the Sabbath or the Jewish Food Laws BEFORE Jesus and NONE kept them afterwords either.

Any argument that Gentiles kept the Sabbath or the Old Testament Food laws simply ignores 3000 years of history.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I have written a three-part analysis of Acts 15, which recites the Decree from the Council of Jerusalem, which established that NO Gentile Christian would follow the Mosaic Law. NO Gentile Christian could or would have kept the Sabbath, because to do so would incur the Death Sentence under Mosaic Law. Please read what I have written. It is indisputable that Gentiles have only been subject to the 7 Noahide Commandments since the beginning of Judaism. Nothing could be clearer. No Gentiles kept the Sabbath or the Jewish Food Laws BEFORE Jesus and NONE kept them afterwords either.

Any argument that Gentiles kept the Sabbath or the Old Testament Food laws simply ignores 3000 years of history.

If your argument about them executing Gentiles for keeping the Sabbath was true then why would a Gentile even want to consider doing so if they were NOT commanded by ANYONE (apostles, Jesus, etc.) to do so? We just do not see proof of ANY Mosaic Law commands IN CONTEXT of the Law given to gentiles in the New Testament.... at ALL.

 

[LarryP2]

If your argument about them executing Gentiles for keeping the Sabbath was true then why would a Gentile even want to consider doing so if they were NOT commanded by ANYONE (apostles, Jesus, etc.) to do so? We just do not see proof of ANY Mosaic Law commands IN CONTEXT of the Law given to gentiles in the New Testament.... at ALL.

Even more, why on Earth would the Apostles have taken on such an absurd waste of time and energy that would have done nothing but be a major distraction from spreading the Gospel? Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin, trained by the foremost legal expert of his time, Gemaliel. Nothing could be clearer under Mosaic law than Gentiles are subject ONLY to the Noahide laws. The Mosaic Laws - including the Ten Commandments - were simply NEVER enforced against Gentiles and Gentiles were NEVER allowed to read the Torah or participate in Jewish rites without undergoing the full conversion process to Judaism. In fact, Acts 15 describes a letter that was sent to the Gentile believers in Antioch, laying down some simple Noahide rules of decorum that they were to follow. The letter was NOT sent to Jerusalem. Why? Because the Jews and Gentiles in Jerusalem were already well-aware of what rules they were subject to! Antioch was not in the Sanhedrin's Jurisdiction, so neither the Mosaic laws or the Noahide laws were established there. That's why only four of the Noahide laws were sent to the Gentile Christian believers in Antioch, since Roman Law already enforced the rest of the Noahide's laws against murder, rape, theft and so on. The letter from the Council was a recognition that the Gentile Believers in Antioch had no way of knowing about any of the laws under the Jewish system. They were given 4 simple rules to avoid horrifying the Christian Jews in Antioch, who were easily horrified by Gentile behavior.

Mosaic Law was crystal clear: Gentiles reading the Torah or Keeping the Sabbath were to be put to death. Why would any Gentile do such a silly thing when they already knew they were subject only to the Noahide laws? Here's an excerpt from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

“The Talmud prohibited the teaching to a Gentile of the Torah, "the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob" (Deut. xxxiii. 4). R. Johanan says of one so teaching: "Such a person deserves death" (an idiom used to express indignation). "It is like placing an obstacle before the blind" (Sanh. 59a; Ḥag. 13a). “

The only exception to this unequivocal prohibition is where the Gentile wishes to study ONLY the 7 Commandments of the laws of Noah:

“And yet if a Gentile study the Law for the purpose of observing the moral laws of Noah, R. Meïr says he is as good as a high priest, and quotes: "Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments, which if a man do, he shall live in them" (Lev. xviii. 5). The text does not specify an Israelite or a Levite or a priest, but simply "a man"—even a Gentile ('Ab. Zarah 26a).”
…..
And finally, the Mosaic law laid down some stark prohibitions against Gentiles keeping the Sabbath:

“Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," and it was probably directed against the Christian Jews, who disregarded the Mosaic laws and yet at that time kept up the observance of the Jewish Sabbath.
R. Emden ( ) ….gives it as his opinion that the original intention of Jesus, and especially of Paul, was to convert only the Gentiles to the seven moral laws of Noah and to let the Jews follow the Mosaic law.”
……

And here are the relevant sections of the Mishnah Torah which I have written about at length in Part 3 of "The War against the Ten Commandments is a Colossal Fraud" threads:

"8.1 Moses our Teacher did not bequeath the Torah and the Commandments to anyone but to Israel, as it says, “the Heritage of the Congregation of Jacob” (Deut. 33:4), and to anyone from the other nations who wishes to convert, as it says, “as you, as a convert” (Numbers 15:15). However, no one who does not want to convert is forced to accept the Torah and the Commandments."

"8.13 Moses our Teacher was commanded by the Almighty to compel the world to accept the Commandments of the Sons of Noah ("the Noahide" laws). Anyone who fails to accept them is executed. Anyone who does accept them upon himself is called a Convert Who May Reside Anywhere. He must accept them in front of three wise and learned Jews. However, anyone who agrees to be circumcised and twelve months have elapsed and he was not as yet circumcised is no different than any other member of the nations of the world."

"8.14 Anyone who accepts upon himself and carefully observes the Seven Commandments is of the Righteous of the Nations of the World and has a portion in the World to Come. This is as long as he accepts and performs them because (he truly believes that) it was the Holy One, Blessed Be He, Who commanded them in the Torah, and that is was through Moses our Teacher we were informed that the Sons of Noah had already been commanded to observe them. But if he observes them because he convinced himself logically, then he is not considered a Resident Convert and is not of the Righteous of the Nations of the World, but merely one of their wise."

"10.11 A non-Jew who busied himself with Torah is liable with his life. He must involve himself in their Seven Noahide Commandments only. Similarly, a non-Jew who “rested” as one would on Sabbath, even on a weekday, is liable with the death penalty. There is no reason to mention (that he is culpable) if he invented his own holiday."

"10.12 The principle here is that we do not permit them to make a new religion and create new commandments for themselves based on their own reasoning. They may only become Righteous Converts and accept upon themselves all the Commandments, or they must observe their own (Seven) Laws only, and not add or detract from them. If a non-Jew busied himself with Torah or made Sabbath or made up something new, we give him lashes and punish him and tell him that he is liable with the death penalty for doing this. But he is not executed."

Why on earth would the Apostles DREAM of inflicting the Mosaic Law on Gentile Believers, when it is CLEAR that Gentiles have NEVER been subject to the Mosaic Laws, but only the Noahide? For the Apostles to have put the burden of the Mosaic Law onto the Gentile believers simply defies logic. To have done so would have strongly inhibited the spread of the Gospel and would have been disobedient to the Great Commission.

One stark reality strikes you when studying the Mishnah Torah: For any Gentile to even consider participating in the rights and responsibilities of the Mosaic Law, full-scale conversion to Judaism is required. Why oh why would the Apostles have done this to Gentile Believers, when it would add absolutely NOTHING to the Christian experience?

 

[FredVB]

I have written a three-part analysis of Acts 15, which recites the Decree from the Council of Jerusalem, which established that NO Gentile Christian would follow the Mosaic Law. NO Gentile Christian could or would have kept the Sabbath, because to do so would incur the Death Sentence under Mosaic Law.

There are more who have done a great study of Acts 15. I have looked a great deal at it along with many other things in the Bible. It is right that gentiles who became believers were not required or to be required to become Jews, or follow all the law for them. Yet they are to become obedient to the things Jesus Christ the Lord said, as well as the things from his appointed apostles. Beyond these things, gentile believers are to do as Jews do regarding the things in the epistle sent from that Jerusalem council, abstaining from sexual immorality, blood in things we have, any meat from what was strangled, and any sort of idolatry or what involves it. And their authority not any authority from Judaism is what should speak for what we do on a sabbath.

 

[from scratch]

I can fairly say, none of this concerns me. I asked about how the certain Bible passages could be explained, or explained away, and though I said I am concerned with what is said in the Bible and nothing else about it concerns me, responses show that nothing in the Bible is found to be a basis to explain the passage is not talking about gentile believers after Christ comes. What is shown with some who are cited in your post shows a prejudice for one perspective. You show an agenda to show how bad Seventh Day Adventism is. This does not apply to this thread and what I have been posting. I made it clear that I am not Seventh Day Adventist with what I said.

What you said, if I worship Christ on Saturday, makes no sense, if it is not with a false gospel. If I do, I do not see how it will make me deny Christ or his work. It should not change me or remove me from Christ at all. With having faith in him with the true gospel, I have him to always be in him. This is true with however much of works I do or obedience I have.

So can Gentile believers remain as Gentiles, or do they indeed have to become Israeli to have salvation? I've yet to see any Bible quoted proving such a thing.

It also gives me pause to wonder why you seem to be supporting the SDA when in fact you say you're not. Is there an organized SDA sympathy group? For me I've always read you this way.

 

[from scratch]

There are more who have done a great study of Acts 15. I have looked a great deal at it along with many other things in the Bible. It is right that gentiles who became believers were not required or to be required to become Jews, or follow all the law for them. Yet they are to become obedient to the things Jesus Christ the Lord said, as well as the things from his appointed apostles. Beyond these things, gentile believers are to do as Jews do regarding the things in the epistle sent from that Jerusalem council, abstaining from sexual immorality, blood in things we have, any meat from what was strangled, and any sort of idolatry or what involves it. And their authority not any authority from Judaism is what should speak for what we do on a sabbath.

Seeing the 7th day Sabbath was a major issue in the Old Testament, why isn't there any record in the Bible of Jesus and the Apostles requiring such of new converts?

 

[Sophrosyne]

So can Gentile believers remain as Gentiles, or do they indeed have to become Israeli to have salvation? I've yet to see any Bible quoted proving such a thing.

It also gives me pause to wonder why you seem to be supporting the SDA when in fact you say you're not. Is there an organized SDA sympathy group? For me I've always read you this way.

I think there are a few that support the 10 commandments (Sabbath) that aren't SDA but in the end they have to use a LOT of the SDA arguments to get around the variety of problems trying to integrate the Law into a Grace based theology creates. It is far easier to plagiarize stuff than it is to do your own headwork and seems like some groups rely on such to keep their members from figuring out that the logical reality of it all theologically doesn't work without smoke and mirrors distracting people from the "magic tricks" going on that are supposed to be "reality".