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What of these passages, do they make you think?

Sophrosyne

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What is the point of Sabbath Keeping?

If it has ANYTHING to do with Salvation.....ANYTHING........it is utterly contrary to the Gospel and the Epistles.

Other than Seventh Day Baptists, Sabbath Keeping is ALWAYS insisted as being necessary to Salvation. It is ALWAYS framed as being part of being "obedient," and the implication is ALWAYS that your Salvation is in doubt if you do not keep it. That's why the FIrst and Second Century Christian Fathers UNANIMOUSLY condemned as a satanic, anti-Gospel, anti-Christian heresy that they vigorously and actively excommunicated from the Church.

Therefore, other than in very few narrow circumstances like the Seventh Day Baptists, it is incompatible with the Gospel, the New Testament and the Resurrection. Lastly, the clause in the 4th Commandment prohibiting your "manservants and maidservants" from doing ANY work on the Sabbath automatically makes Sabbath Keeping a delusional, empty and futile gesture in a modern economy:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7820818/

If you buy virtually ANYTHING in our globalized economy, you have paid the wages of "servants" who have willfully violated the Sabbath on your behalf. The fact that modern monetary instruments create a false "barrier" to your Sabbath Breaking is purely an artificial construct. If you announce that you are keeping yourself and only yourself, then you are engaging in hypocrisy.
I think those arguing for the Sabbath (and other rules/laws) are either not getting it or purposely are deceitful in that it IS about salvation if you MUST keep the rules. They typically do NOT contend it is voluntary and your salvation isn't at risk for not obeying such rules. We see this constant soft sell partially I think because the rules used to equate that they can't promote keeping the Law for salvation somewhere. I think they may have removed that rule awhile back I'm not sure though.
I think the biggest trick they play on naive Christians is if you love Jesus (God) you will obey him (disobey and you lose salvation) and then they point out rules from the OT to obey (typically buffet style from their group).
 
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LarryP2

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I think the biggest trick they play on naive Christians is if you love Jesus (God) you will obey him (disobey and you lose salvation) and then they point out rules from the OT to obey (typically buffet style from their group).

And they ALWAYS.......ALWAYS.......completely ignore the strict clause in the 4th Commandment that prohibits "manservants and maidservants" from "working" on the Sabbath on your behalf. Only in an agrarian, subsistence farming, primitive society is this possible, which is an argument that goes straight to who it was specifically given to: Ancient Israel. It is painfully obvious, looking at the ancient Israelite economy, that the entire Mosaic Law was meant to be temporary. It has NO applicability anywhere else or at any other time.

To ignore that clause and to pretend that in a globalized economy it is even theoretically-possible for us to keep the Sabbath is to simply engage in deliberate and willful self deceit. Sabbath advocates dishonestly flatter themselves by pretending it is possible for THEM and only THEM to individually keep it, while completely IGNORING what they pay people to do when they buy products that are on the market as a result of a global economy.

That clause is just simply ignored. NOBODY keeps the Sabbath nowadays. If you even receive mail on Saturday, you are breaking the Sabbath. Probably the most famous person who theoretically COULD have kept the Sabbath was the Unabomber, who lived in a primitive backwoods cabin out in the middle of nowhere, with no electricity, plumbing and so on. However, he mailed his bombs using First Class Mail, drove to the Post Office and so on. Someone that lives like he did could THEORETICALLY keep the Sabbath, but I am unaware of anyone that has succeeded in living that way.
 
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Sophrosyne

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And they ALWAYS.......ALWAYS.......completely ignore the strict clause in the 4th Commandment that prohibits "manservants and maidservants" from "working" on the Sabbath on your behalf. Only in an agrarian, subsistence farming, primitive society is this possible, which is an argument that goes straight to who it was specifically given to. Ancient Israel.

To ignore that clause and to pretend that in a globalized economy it is even theoretically-possible for us to keep the Sabbath is to simply engage in deliberate and willful self deceit. Sabbath advocates dishonestly flatter themselves by pretending it is possible for THEM and only THEM to individually keep it, while completely IGNORING what they pay people to do when they buy products that are on the market as a result of a global economy.

That clause is just simply ignored. NOBODY keeps the Sabbath nowadays.
They have made it from a TASK to complete to nothing but a tradition in effect by NOT adhering strictly to the rules of keeping the Sabbath.
It is one thing to totally nitpick rules to the point that honoring God is replaced with honoring man's idea of what God wants, another to just skip the parts of the rules that make it a hard difficult task to complete that in modern society could prove very costly or require as you have equated living in a medieval society where there is no utility companies connected to houses or the ability to completely shut them entirely off 1 day a week and to not do anything that requires work of someone else.
I can see someone keeping the Sabbath staying at home which doesn't directly affect policemen out patrolling the streets for their sake and traffic lights and such for everyone else but he minute you start up the car and drive you are using power at traffic lights for your convenience and safety and requiring police, fire, ambulance services to be on standby in case you have an accident while in transit to church. Then you have a church building that somehow doesn't use any power on the sabbath requiring the preacher to either use a battery powered microphone and lighting or scream loudly at his 2000 sabbath "keepers". I just don't see how one can honestly pretend that it is about salvation they are putting up this facade.
 
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LarryP2

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They have made it from a TASK to complete to nothing but a tradition in effect by NOT adhering strictly to the rules of keeping the Sabbath.

The prohibition against "manservants and maidservants" "doing any work" is not merely a "tradition" or a "rule." It is an explicit and important clause on the face of the actual Commandment itself.

The only way around an explicit clause in a law like that is to either ignore it (like modern Christian Sabbath Keepers knowingly do), or provide detailed rules on how it is to be enforced (Like Judaism does, but since Sabbatarian Christians simply ignore the Clause, they have no rules about it either).

In any case, their argument for Sabbath Keeping should be denounced as the dishonest fairy tale that it actually is.

It is important to note when Seventh Day Baptists go started: In the 1650's, well before the Industrial Revolution hit in either the United States or Britain. Seventh Day Baptists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was entirely possible in those days to be completely self-sufficient and/or to make sure nothing you bought was made on the Sabbath. Not now. No way.

So basically, Sabbath Keeping in this day and age is just a self-flattering deceit that "pretends" all of those people working on Sabbath - who are working on the Sabbath and making the products you buy - aren't doing what they are doing and you aren't doing what you are dong when you pay their wages when you buy the product they have produced. .
 
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Sophrosyne

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The prohibition against "manservants and maidservants" "doing any work" is not merely a "tradition" or a "rule." It is an explicit and important clause on the face of the actual Commandment itself.

The only way around an explicit clause in a law like that is to either ignore it (like modern Christian Sabbath Keepers knowingly do), or provide detailed rules on how it is to be enforced (Like Judaism does, but since Sabbatarian Christians simply ignore the Clause, they have no rules about it either).

In any case, their argument for Sabbath Keeping should be denounced as the dishonest fairy tale that it actually is.

It is important to note when Seventh Day Baptists go started: In the 1650's, well before the Industrial Revolution hit in either the United States or Britain. Seventh Day Baptists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was entirely possible in those days to be completely self-sufficient and/or to make sure nothing you bought was made on the Sabbath. Not now. No way.

So basically, Sabbath Keeping in this day and age is just a self-flattering deceit that "pretends" all of those people working on Sabbath - who are working on the Sabbath and making the products you buy - aren't doing what they are doing and you aren't doing what you are dong when you pay their wages when you buy the product they have produced. .
If one is "keeping" the Sabbath as only a tradition and not equating it to being salvic in nature then I see nothing wrong with not totally adhering to every rule but instead in effect showing God by "taking a day off" to honor him that you care. When you equate salvation in the midst then perfection MUST be applied to the mix else it fails to be sufficient. It is kind of like Jesus sort of being crucified to save us, only nail one arm up and slap him a few times instead of whipping him till he is unrecognizable, and then Jesus just takes the sins of a few choice (buffet style) people he likes on the cross at his whim. I see Sabbath keeping as a show of how serious about God you are when it comes to being under the Law (and Jewish, Israel) those who put forth their best effort won't be seen as cutting corners by anyone else who is doing the same but instead would be commended for it. I bet the Jews who are keeping the Sabbath (as best they can) just roll their eyes at SDA and the like and consider their effort akin to mockery.

This is the way I see Sabbath Keeping:
1) Go all out and do your best, even at great cost of comfort and funds, consider it part of your salvic relationship with God and keep in mind that your effort will be compared with ALL those who "kept" the Sabbath FOR ALL TIME.
2) Consider the Sabbath voluntary, not salvic and take time off on the day to spend with God working very little during the time but the focus is on God not the day itself and actions related to work.
3) Don't consider the Sabbath as relevant at all, don't worry about those who wish to keep it or not and don't tell anyone to keep it or not either it is a personal thing that just doesn't equate to you.

I'm in the 3rd category as I try and spend time with God but I don't set aside a "day" I just try and do it often daily even at times.
2)
 
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LarryP2

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When you equate salvation in the midst then perfection MUST be applied to the mix else it fails to be sufficient.

And 99.999999999 percent of the Spam Sabbath Posters indeed know that they DO require it for salvation, even though as I have demonstrated, they no more keep the Sabbath than you or I do. Their argument that they do is based solely on dishonestly ignoring half of the Commandment. The live in an elaborate fairy tale existence.

I see Sabbath keeping as a show of how serious about God you are when it comes to being under the Law (and Jewish, Israel) those who put forth their best effort won't be seen as cutting corners by anyone else who is doing the same but instead would be commended for it. I bet the Jews who are keeping the Sabbath (as best they can) just roll their eyes at SDA and the like and consider their effort akin to mockery.

Seriously? You can admire Jews for keeping it. Sabbatarian Christians that claim they do are nothing but fraudulent hucksters. They don't even put forth a good faith effort to keep it.

I'm in the 3rd category as I try and spend time with God but I don't set aside a "day" I just try and do it often daily even at times.

And so are the Sabbath Spammers. They are doing EXACTLY what you are doing, except they fantasize that they are doing something they aren't, and they hope that we will not see past their deceit. It is CLEAR that if you claim to keep the Sabbath, you have to do everything in your power NOT to buy products that come from or are distributed by companies that work on the Sabbath. The Sabbath Breaking of people in China that make your iphone under the 4th Commandment is imputed to YOU! Here's some actions of Sabbath Keepers that we should take seriously, who are unlike the fraudulent Sabbath Spammers that come on here:

More than a thousand devout Jews are protesting in Jerusalem against plans by computer chip maker Intel to operate on Saturdays.

The devout Jews, dressed in their traditional black hats and long coats, shouted "Shabbes! Shabbes!" — the Yiddish word for Sabbath — while banging against one of the door's of Intel's Jerusalem office.

Jerusalem police spokesman Shmuel Ben-Ruby said no violence was reported in the protest.

Religious Jews are forbidden to work on the Jewish Sabbath, and in recent months a core group of Israel's devout Jewish community — known as the "ultra-Orthodox" — have become increasingly militant in enforcing a Saturday work ban.

Protests against Jerusalem's municipality for operating a parking lot on the Jewish Sabbath have taken place on a near-weekly basis for months, and another protest is expected on Saturday.

It is not clear what prompted the sudden protests against Intel, which Israeli media reports has operated on Saturday for years.

"We have always worked according o the company's needs. If the needs call for it, we work on Shabbat (the Jewish Sabbath) as well," said Intel Israel spokesman Kobi Becker, speaking to a local Israeli daily Ynet on Thursday.
Ultra-Orthodox Jews protest Intel Sabbath work - Middle East - World - The Independent

No rest in the debate over Sabbath business hours in Jerusalem

JERUSALEM — The crowd that gathered at the recent grand opening of Cinema City hadn't come for the movies. They were there in droves to protest a government regulation that keeps the 19-screen cineplex closed each week from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
"Jerusalem, wake up!" the protesters chanted as security guards blocked them from entering the lobby. "Nonreligious people are equal too!"
The demonstration was the latest skirmish in Jerusalem's long-running "Sabbath wars," which for decades have pitted the city's secular Jewish population against its ultra-Orthodox community over whether shops, theaters and other public spaces can remain open on the Jewish day of rest.
"I don't tell people when to go to the synagogue, and they shouldn't tell me when to go to the cinema," said Laura Wharton, a city councilwoman whose left-leaning Meretz party led the protest outside the cineplex, which was built on city land and is barred from opening on the Sabbath by a provision written by an ultra-Orthodox city lawmaker. "You have a small, vocal minority telling the rest of the city what they should do."
Tired of having to drive an hour to Tel Aviv to dance at a nightclub on a Friday night or sit at a cafe on a Saturday morning, secular activists are fighting for more nonreligious Sabbath activities in Jerusalem. They have rallied behind the opening of a small but growing number of cafes and bars and have held booming block parties in the streets, at times provoking counter-protests.
Mostly Jewish West Jerusalem essentially shuts down every Friday afternoon, in keeping with Orthodox strictures that prohibit observant Jews from working on the Sabbath. Stores are closed, bus service is suspended and cars are banned from the streets in and around many neighborhoods. Some ultra-Orthodox, who tend to vote as a bloc in city elections and are heavily represented on the city council, have thrown stones at drivers who challenge the status quo.
"When I see a Jewish person in a car on the Sabbath, it hurts me," said Daniel Katzenstein, an ultra-Orthodox father of nine who moved to Jerusalem from Brooklyn. "Any threat to my lifestyle I am going to protest."
In recent years, crowds of ultra-Orthodox men have burned down bus shelters featuring images of scantily clad women, and have sought to stop construction of a mixed-gender swimming pool. When the owners of Cafe Bezalel, famous for its mimosas, decided to open for Saturday brunch this year, diners were confronted by ultra-Orthodox protesters chanting, "Shabbat" — "Sabbath."
"There's a lack of tolerance here, the feeling like you're not welcome," said Elisheva Mazya, who runs a nonprofit called New Spirit that works to keep young people living in Jerusalem by helping them find jobs and obtain mortgages. Her group has tried to block ultra-Orthodox families from moving to certain neighborhoods so the streets there can remain open on the Sabbath.
A few years ago, the organization started hosting parties on Saturdays to compete with cities like Tel Aviv, whose beaches and night life have made it a magnet for young people and where the percentage of ultra-Orthodox residents is much smaller.
"It's an opportunity to find other normal people here," Mazya said, looking around at a crowd of about 100 at a folk concert at a popular hostel.
The battle in Jerusalem reflects a conflict brewing throughout Israel, where resentment of the ultra-Orthodox community has grown among secular and moderately religious Jews.
More than 60% of ultra-Orthodox men study at religious schools and do not work, and few serve in the army. Families receive government subsidies calculated on the number of children in a household. With the community growing at a much faster rate than the rest of the Jewish population, some officials have warned that the current arrangement is unsustainable.
After Finance Minister Yair Lapid pushed a law through the Knesset, or parliament, last month that would end military service exemptions for the ultra-Orthodox, hundreds of thousands of men in the group's traditional black suits and hats demonstrated in the streets.
The tension is amplified in Jerusalem, where the percentage of ultra-Orthodox is more than three times higher than in the rest of Israel and where diverse groups live in close quarters. From Mamilla Mall, an upscale shopping complex where secular teenagers can buy the latest in skin-tight fashion, it's just a few blocks to the insular ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Mea Shearim, where narrow passageways evoke an age-old Eastern European shtetl and signs ask visitors not to pass by in "immodest clothes."
For Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat, who is secular, running the city has been a balancing act. He has tried to stay out of the fray on issues such as whether Cinema City should be allowed to open during the Sabbath while putting a priority on attracting secular young people, whom he calls "the engine for growth."
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/apr/14/world/la-fg-israel-sabbath-wars-20140414


Yeah. That Intel chip that is in your computer that you sent your Sabbath Spam onto this website with? Yep! You broke the Sabbath when you did that! Your "employee" had to work on Sabbath to make that.
 
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Sophrosyne

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Seriously? You can admire Jews for keeping it. Sabbatarian Christians that claim they do are nothing but fraudulent hucksters. They don't even put forth a good faith effort to keep it.
Even though I disagree with it, I admire people who set out to do something and do it 100% and correct at that. I don't admire people who make a show about doing something halfway at all for sure.
It is CLEAR that if you claim to keep the Sabbath, you have to do everything in your power NOT to buy products that come from or are distributed by companies that work on the Sabbath.
<lots cut here>
Yeah. That Intel chip that is in your computer that you sent your Sabbath Spam onto this website with? Yep! You broke the Sabbath when you did that! Your "employee" had to work on Sabbath to make that.
And don't forget all the servers on the internet that have intel chips in them even if you don't have one it is nearly impossible to avoid completely products that come from sabbath breakers. Imagine buying from a place that has people driving and flying planes of stuff around on the Sabbath till they finally get there on monday for you to buy..... sabbath breaking there too. Imagine the power generated on the sabbath to provide for the pumping of oil out of the ground for you to buy at gas stations to drive your car.... I can go on and on with this type of thinking.
 
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LarryP2

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Even though I disagree with it, I admire people who set out to do something and do it 100% and correct at that. I don't admire people who make a show about doing something halfway at all for sure.

Those Orthodox Jews that were protesting against Intel did not work there. Yet they felt they had a responsibility to protest the company requiring Israelis to work there on the Sabbath. Obviously, those Orthodox Jews well understand the "manservant and maidservant" clause of the 4th Commandment. They do not live in an elaborate and deceitful fairy tale like the Sabbath Spammers. The 4th Commandment even prohibits your animals from working on the Sabbath! How much more severe of a violation it is when a poor Chinese person building your i-phone and i-pad work in your Sabbath!

And don't forget all the servers on the internet that have intel chips in them even if you don't have one it is nearly impossible to avoid completely products that come from sabbath breakers. Imagine buying from a place that has people driving and flying planes of stuff around on the Sabbath till they finally get there on monday for you to buy..... sabbath breaking there too. Imagine the power generated on the sabbath to provide for the pumping of oil out of the ground for you to buy at gas stations to drive your car.... I can go on and on with this type of thinking.

And that "type of thinking" is PRECISELY what did not exist in ancient Israel. Back then, you didn't have to worry about anyone working on the Sabbath. The whole tiny, agrarian, subsistence farming society shut down completely. Now it is not even REMOTELY possible to shut down even ONE country. Any country that even tried would be committing economic suicide. Any Sabbath Keeper that really tries to keep the Sabbath is basically doing the same thing: withdrawing from the world economy and committing individual economic suicide.

Nobody does that. Nobody keeps the Sabbath. NOBODY!!!
 
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Those Orthodox Jews that were protesting against Intel did not work there. Yet they felt they had a responsibility to protest the company requiring Israelis to work there on the Sabbath. Obviously, those Orthodox Jews well understand the "manservant and maidservant" clause of the 4th Commandment. They do not live in an elaborate and deceitful fairy tale like the Sabbath Spammers. The 4th Commandment even prohibits your animals from working on the Sabbath! How much more severe of a violation it is when a poor Chinese person building your i-phone and i-pad work in your Sabbath!



And that "type of thinking" is PRECISELY what did not exist in ancient Israel. Back then, you didn't have to worry about anyone working on the Sabbath. The whole tiny, agrarian, subsistence farming society shut down completely. Now it is not even REMOTELY possible to shut down even ONE country. Any country that even tried would be committing economic suicide. Any Sabbath Keeper that really tries to keep the Sabbath is basically doing the same thing: withdrawing from the world economy and committing individual economic suicide.

Nobody does that. Nobody keeps the Sabbath. NOBODY!!!
Does that mean sabbatarians are now justly legal to go with out shoes or clothes?:);)
 
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LarryP2

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Does that mean sabbatarians are now justly legal to go with out shoes or clothes?:);)

No, they "hire" lots of foreign "manservants and maidservants," and pay their wages with the cost of the goods they purchase. And those poor foreign "manservants and maidservants" they pay pitiful wages to, work EVERY Sabbath to make almost everything they buy:

"Migrant workers endure long working days, work seven days a week, many without an employment contract and face constant discrimination."
Sweatshops in China | War on Want

"They are made in a sweatshop in China, where women are routinely forced to work seven days and 94 ½ hours a week, for wages of just 51 ½ cents an hour, $4.13 a day."
Made in China:The Sweatshop behind the Bratz-Toy

"The young workers sit on hard wooden stools twelve hours a day, seven days a week as 500 computer keyboards an hour move down the assembly line, or one every 7.2 seconds."
Working in a Chinese sweatshop for HP, Microsoft, Dell and IBM | The FRANCE 24 Observers

"Romney and Bain Capital invested in Global-Tech Appliances and Sensata Technologies, among other companies, while Global-Tech and Sensata outsource jobs to China and force student interns and mostly female workers to work 12 or more hours a day, seven days a week at 99 cents to $1.35 per hour."
Romney/Bain invested in brutal Chinese sweatshops Institute for Global Labour and Human Rights

Workers are at the factory 96 hours a week, routinely toiling 15 1/2-hour shifts, 8:30 a.m. to midnight, seven days a week. -- Any worker missing an overtime shift will be docked three days' wages.
Toys of Misery Made in Abusive Chinese Sweatshops May Also Be Carrying Bed Bugs - WDRB 41 Louisville News

(DID YOU GET THAT LAST ONE? Say a worker missed working on the Sabbath......they get DOCKED three days pay!!!!)

Wal-Mart Christmas ornament workers toil 10 to 15 hours a day, seven days a week, going for months without a day off.
Wal-Mart Christmas Ornaments Made Under Illegal Sweatshop Conditions in China -- re> NEW YORK, Dec. 12 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --

With the complex at peak production, operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week to meet the global demand for Apple phones and computers, a typical day begins with the Chinese national anthem being played over loudspeakers, with the words: 'Arise, arise, arise, millions of hearts with one mind.'
Revealed: Inside the Chinese suicide sweatshop where workers toil in 34-hour shifts to make your iPod | Mail Online

The people who work on the Cargo Ships also work 7 day weeks:

I am on the 12 to 4 watch, which means seven days a week, from midnight to four a.m. and from noon to four p.m., I am up on the bridge, steering the ship while in congested areas like the Suez Canal, or being a lookout while we are at sea on auto-helm (a.k.a. "the Iron Mike")
http://www.fecalface.com/SF/index.p...random/1791-live-and-work-on-a-container-ship

And your order is shipped through UPS:

Benefits
All UPS service levels are accepted at UPS Drop Box locations.
Access UPS Drop Boxes 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Get later pickup times than with your regularly scheduled pickup.
Use UPS Drop Boxes as a single source for everything you need to make last-minute shipments.
....
The service will ship your envelop or package on the best available flight 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and every day of the year.
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/locations/dropboxes/index.html?WT.svl=SubNav

Though the Postal Service would continue to deliver packages on Saturdays
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/11/business/postal-service-and-amazon-strike-deal.html

"Some utility companies allow $110 per month, but require their men to work seven days a week.
http://books.google.com/books?id=10...lity company "work seven days a week"&f=false

Nobody Keeps the Sabbath. NOBODY. Your "manservants and maidservants" all over the world, are working HARD for you every single Sabbath, many of them 12 hour days! And you pay them pitiful wages to break the explicit prohibition against them working on the Sabbath. In the First Century after Christ's Death, No Jew would treat the worst Gentile this badly on the Sabbath. They wouldn't even treat their horse this badly on the Sabbath!
 
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FredVB

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First, I want to have care in how I respond. I do agree in some things with Larry, and disagree in other things. So I wish to respond without it seen to come to divisiveness. Generally with good news and bad news delivered, the bad news is preferred first. So for that approach I will go to the disagreement first.

There is legalism of the Pharisees to read all the requirements that are seen to be needed with the Sabbath. This is an interpretation that I don't see as needed. Jesus did not make strict interpretation to what should be done on the Sabbath. And if it is seen by anyone that everybody working is working for me, I just can't see it that way at all. I do agree that there is such injustice, and even that we should break off any involvement with any of that in our choices. There could be much to be said about this. I don't give orders to anyone, I am not in such position that I think I should. No one else is my servant, to say otherwise is way too liberal a stretch to make a point. I, among others who are likewise as well, am not much of a consumer anyway, with going to a way of more simplicity, that I don't expect those here to understand. Is it thought no one observes Sabbath truly but thirty years ago or whatever there were those who did? Why cannot any do that again?

There is exception made for Seventh Day Baptists, and then the bulk of the communication is against "them", which apparently is just Seventh Day Adventists, this is the case with what is from Larry and Sophrosyne. Is it thought that I involve salvation with anything about the sabbath? I don't, and have already been saying that. It is off-topic, as there was not anyone else but myself with whom there was disagreement in this thread, and I never brought up anything involving Seventh Day Adventism, in the original post I asked about understanding a Bible passage, which incidentally was never answered by any recently posting. I am not someone who put anything on anyone else, and I make no judgment on others. I think I would like seeing that more among others.

Alright, I do still agree, to which I will speak. All have sins. I am not an exception. I need forgiveness, and need it from God to whom I turn. This is how Christ is needed. Am I then to see myself no longer in bondage to any rules, and it won't matter then that I still sin? Should I not try to not sin, or not cooperate with God to not sin, because it just can't be done? So don't bother trying? Is that what I am to be told?

It is anyway legal for all, virtually anywhere, to go without shoes or footwear. I think there are some places it is legal to go without clothes as well. But this is something else, not addressing my question about the Bible passage and the sabbath that it is talking about.
 
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LarryP2

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First, I want to have care in how I respond. I do agree in some things with Larry, and disagree in other things. So I wish to respond without it seen to come to divisiveness. Generally with good news and bad news delivered, the bad news is preferred first. So for that approach I will go to the disagreement first.

There is legalism of the Pharisees to read all the requirements that are seen to be needed with the Sabbath. This is an interpretation that I don't see as needed. Jesus did not make strict interpretation to what should be done on the Sabbath. And if it is seen by anyone that everybody working is working for me, I just can't see it that way at all. I do agree that there is such injustice, and even that we should break off any involvement with any of that in our choices. There could be much to be said about this. I don't give orders to anyone, I am not in such position that I think I should. No one else is my servant, to say otherwise is way too liberal a stretch to make a point. I, among others who are likewise as well, am not much of a consumer anyway, with going to a way of more simplicity, that I don't expect those here to understand. Is it thought no one observes Sabbath truly but thirty years ago or whatever there were those who did? Why cannot any do that again?

There is exception made for Seventh Day Baptists, and then the bulk of the communication is against "them", which apparently is just Seventh Day Adventists, this is the case with what is from Larry and Sophrosyne. Is it thought that I involve salvation with anything about the sabbath? I don't, and have already been saying that. It is off-topic, as there was not anyone else but myself with whom there was disagreement in this thread, and I never brought up anything involving Seventh Day Adventism, in the original post I asked about understanding a Bible passage, which incidentally was never answered by any recently posting. I am not someone who put anything on anyone else, and I make no judgment on others. I think I would like seeing that more among others.

Alright, I do still agree, to which I will speak. All have sins. I am not an exception. I need forgiveness, and need it from God to whom I turn. This is how Christ is needed. Am I then to see myself no longer in bondage to any rules, and it won't matter then that I still sin? Should I not try to not sin, or not cooperate with God to not sin, because it just can't be done? So don't bother trying? Is that what I am to be told?

It is anyway legal for all, virtually anywhere, to go without shoes or footwear. I think there are some places it is legal to go without clothes as well. But this is something else, not addressing my question about the Bible passage and the sabbath that it is talking about.

The Sabbath was never, ever commanded in the New Testament. Many of the other Ten Commandments were. Gentiles NEVER kept the Sabbath, before or after Christ. Acts 15 specifically rejected the notion that the Gentile Christians should keep the Mosaic law. All of the First and Second Century Christian Fathers denounced and excommunicated Sabbath keepers as the Ebionite and Judaizing heretics.

But by all means, if you wish to subject yourself to horrific spiritual bondage; live with never-ending doubts about whether you are keeping the Sabbath perfectly enough to qualify for Salvation; and wish to virtually eliminate the effect of the Resurrection in your life......

By all means! Have a party and keep the Sabbath! Just don't claim that nobody warned you.

In the meantime hopefully your kids eventually recover from the spiritual abuse and wreckage that naturally follows your proposed line of thought, before they are too old to have any life left. Some of them eventually learn to forgive their parents for putting them through the massive body of lies, traumatic insecurity, and abusive doctrines that always come as a "package" with Sabbath Keeping. Maybe your kids will be one of the lucky ones and find one of the many support groups for ex-Sabbatarians, and will discover orthodox christianity. There are over 1,000 of us who have been through that journey and discuss this alarming, extremely abusive and disturbing part of our lives with each other, and almost 50 of them have finally reconciled with their elderly parents before they died. 100's of our childhood friends committed suicide, died hardcore atheists, or ended up as hopeless drunks on skid row. There's even a small chance your kids will be among the few lucky ones that discover real christianity!

But Christians were and are strongly advised to stay away from such anti-Christian Salvation by Works schemes. Sabbath Keeping was immediately and accurately viewed as a vile, Satanic heresy and repeatedly denounced in the New Testament and forcibly-excommunicated by the Church Fathers.

But maybe you know something they didn't!
 
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First, I want to have care in how I respond. I do agree in some things with Larry, and disagree in other things. So I wish to respond without it seen to come to divisiveness. Generally with good news and bad news delivered, the bad news is preferred first. So for that approach I will go to the disagreement first.

There is legalism of the Pharisees to read all the requirements that are seen to be needed with the Sabbath. This is an interpretation that I don't see as needed. Jesus did not make strict interpretation to what should be done on the Sabbath. And if it is seen by anyone that everybody working is working for me, I just can't see it that way at all. I do agree that there is such injustice, and even that we should break off any involvement with any of that in our choices. There could be much to be said about this. I don't give orders to anyone, I am not in such position that I think I should. No one else is my servant, to say otherwise is way too liberal a stretch to make a point. I, among others who are likewise as well, am not much of a consumer anyway, with going to a way of more simplicity, that I don't expect those here to understand. Is it thought no one observes Sabbath truly but thirty years ago or whatever there were those who did? Why cannot any do that again?

There is exception made for Seventh Day Baptists, and then the bulk of the communication is against "them", which apparently is just Seventh Day Adventists, this is the case with what is from Larry and Sophrosyne. Is it thought that I involve salvation with anything about the sabbath? I don't, and have already been saying that. It is off-topic, as there was not anyone else but myself with whom there was disagreement in this thread, and I never brought up anything involving Seventh Day Adventism, in the original post I asked about understanding a Bible passage, which incidentally was never answered by any recently posting. I am not someone who put anything on anyone else, and I make no judgment on others. I think I would like seeing that more among others.

Alright, I do still agree, to which I will speak. All have sins. I am not an exception. I need forgiveness, and need it from God to whom I turn. This is how Christ is needed. Am I then to see myself no longer in bondage to any rules, and it won't matter then that I still sin? Should I not try to not sin, or not cooperate with God to not sin, because it just can't be done? So don't bother trying? Is that what I am to be told?

It is anyway legal for all, virtually anywhere, to go without shoes or footwear. I think there are some places it is legal to go without clothes as well. But this is something else, not addressing my question about the Bible passage and the sabbath that it is talking about.
So I still wonder about what you're saying. I just don't get it. You're so evasive even the SDA said so.
 
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LarryP2

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So I still wonder about what you're saying. I just don't get it. You're so evasive even the SDA said so.

I'm beginning to think this is a "fishing expedition." Just like Elder111 did on the Remnant Church thread that he recently started. Throw out one superficially-plausible proof-text and get people all worked up and worried over your bad Bible reading technique and subsequent wrongful interpretation.

It's got all of the fingerprints of deceptive Seventh Day Adventist proselytising. Motto: "Proudly ruining people's lives since 1844, with a unique combination of Proof-texting and horrific theology."
 
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I'm beginning to think this is a "fishing expedition." Just like Elder111 did on the Remnant Church thread that he recently started. Throw out one superficially-plausible proof-text and get people all worked up and worried over your bad Bible reading technique and subsequent wrongful interpretation.

It's got all of the fingerprints of deceptive Seventh Day Adventist proselytising. Motto: "Proudly ruining people's lives since 1844, with a unique combination of Proof-texting and horrific theology."
Yeah I've a neighbor who wants me to join his very small world and not participate in my community. If I don't participate in my community I can't influence anyone for Jesus.
 
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FredVB

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The Sabbath was never, ever commanded in the New Testament.

But by all means, if you wish to subject yourself to horrific spiritual bondage; live with never-ending doubts about whether you are keeping the Sabbath perfectly enough to qualify for Salvation; and wish to virtually eliminate the effect of the Resurrection in your life.....

I'm beginning to think this is a "fishing expedition."
It's got all of the fingerprints of deceptive Seventh Day Adventist proselytising.

The Sabbath was never, ever commanded in the new testament? Where is it ever, ever forbidden in the new testament? Is the issue in the new testament or anywhere in the Bible in reality about it being impossible to actually keep?

That is quite an interpretation of what I see for the sabbath. I have already posted, a number of times now, that I don't see this having anything to do with salvation, which is only through the Lord Jesus Christ according to our faith, repenting and coming to him. And way to throw out "But what about the children, won't someone think of the children" for argument. That could be thrown at every family that believes differently than you.

What fingerprints are there of Seventh Day Adventists? I am just a Christian believer, finding something in the Bible, asking a question, and yet to get a satisfying response that really answers.
 
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LarryP2

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The Sabbath was never, ever commanded in the new testament? Where is it ever, ever forbidden in the new testament?

The Book of Galatians and Colossians 2:13-18 were the "first shots" in Christianity's fierce all-out war against the Judaizing heresy, which eventually mutated into the Ebionite Heresy. By the time of the Council of Laodicea, Christianity laid down a Church canon that automatically required excommunication for the "Judaizers. They were seen as incompatible with Christianity:"


Canon 29

"Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."
CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

I already know you think you are much much smarter than the heroic Bishops that were gathered at that Church Council, so no need for you to explain your position. And certainly, you will overlook the fact that the vast majority of the gathered Bishops either suffered personal torture or had some of their family members murdered for their Christian beliefs. Nowadays, you can be a real "hero" by lounging in your Lazy-Boy recliner and collecting 100's of Sabbatarians proof texts, and denounce those early Christians for cowardly throwing away the Sabbath.

Is the issue in the new testament or anywhere in the Bible in reality about it being impossible to actually keep?

As long as you completely ignore the prohibition against "work" by your "manservant and maidservants" on the Sabbath, which is actually probably about 75 percent of the actual real-world modern difficulty and effort of Sabbath Keeping. Given globalization (which was not in existence during the Bible years), either you buy NOTHING that is made on the Sabbath, which requires boycotting ANYTHING produced in a factory that works 7 days a week; forgoing all utilities (internet, electrical and so on) which require 7 days a week employees to keep running; and refuse to pay taxes that pays the wages of governmental employees that work on the Sabbath; or you just completely IGNORE that prohibition like modern Sabbatarians dishonestly do. They ignore about 25 percent of the text and 75 percent of the effort, which is mighty convenient! Or, you can completely ignore it and then hypocritically smear Christians of being "lawless," when in point of fact, you have demonstrated a FAR higher level of willful "lawlessness" by ignoring most of what you gloatingly announce you are "keeping."

And way to throw out "But what about the children, won't someone think of the children" for argument. That could be thrown at every family that believes differently than you.

Nah, I have lived it. Went through 12 years of their schooling system and watched my classmates committing suicide like flies afterwords. That is why I am so vigorously opposed to Sabbath Keeping: It inevitably and logically leads to an impossible Salvation by Works scheme and ultimately, rejection of the Resurrection. This has been well-known by Christianity for 2,000 years. Which I already know, you ignore that history because you know better than 2,000 years of Christianity lived by many billions of Christians, but it is still the history of Christianity.

What earmarks are there of Seventh Day Adventists?

1000's of Sabbath threads and posts on this website!
 
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The Sabbath was never, ever commanded in the new testament? Where is it ever, ever forbidden in the new testament? Is the issue in the new testament or anywhere in the Bible in reality about it being impossible to actually keep?
This is a lame argument..... it is called arguing from silence. We don't see a lot of thing forbidden in the new testament it doesn't mean we are supposed to DO them. The Sabbath isn't commanded of Christians whatsoever, in fact it isn't even mentioned as a valid thing for Gentiles to even consider and there are a lot of things mentioned in the New Testament that are argued to try and support the silence of the Sabbath command therein.
That is quite an interpretation of what I see for the sabbath. I have already posted, a number of times now, that I don't see this having anything to do with salvation, which is only through the Lord Jesus Christ according to our faith, repenting and coming to him. And way to throw out "But what about the children, won't someone think of the children" for argument. That could be thrown at every family that believes differently than you.
I don't see anyone arguing here that people of their free will can keep the sabbath at all, we don't mind you keeping the Sabbath what we do mind is you arguing or even trying to convince others that we should keep it. Once you equate it is something you NEED to do then the argument invariably works its way back to the true reason... why? If you don't lose salvation by NOT keeping the Sabbath then why keep it? Once this argument is encountered one must invariably agree the Sabbath is voluntary and not mandatory OR equate on loses their "Christianity" by not participating in it.
What fingerprints are there of Seventh Day Adventists? I am just a Christian believer, finding something in the Bible, asking a question, and yet to get a satisfying response that really answers.
Invariably those who promote Sabbath Keeping EVEN if it is supposedly not tied into salvation rely on the arguments the SDAs use, the same proof texts and invariably read the same garbage online that they also read and spew it out and about promoting it here and there.
At what percentage does one have to agree with the SDA church do they become as far as those who are generically labeling them..... another SDA clone? You tell us. The old saying if it walks like a duck and speaks like a duck and ducks seem to agree with them perhaps it IS a duck.
 
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LarryP2

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This is a lame argument..... it is called arguing from silence. We don't see a lot of thing forbidden in the new testament it doesn't mean we are supposed to DO them. The Sabbath isn't commanded of Christians whatsoever, in fact it isn't even mentioned as a valid thing for Gentiles to even consider and there are a lot of things mentioned in the New Testament that are argued to try and support the silence of the Sabbath command therein.

There is no doubt that Gallatians harshly condemns Judaizing, or arguing that ANY Christian should keep the Mosaic Law. And that includes the Sabbath. Acts 15 gives Gentile Christians just four things to do, and does not include the Sabbath.

Logically, there is NO WAY to advocate Sabbath Keeping without making it an issue of Salvation. It ALWAYS leads to that conclusion. VictorC just posted some lengthy excerpts from Ellen White that clearly demonstrates where this leads. Elder111 was caught red handed in lying that his Church does not teach that Sabbath Keeping is a requirement for Salvation.

Sabbath Keeping is just incompatible with the Gospel and the Resurrection. There is 2,000 years of Christian History that demonstrates this.
 
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I'm beginning to think this is a "fishing expedition." Just like Elder111 did on the Remnant Church thread that he recently started. Throw out one superficially-plausible proof-text and get people all worked up and worried over your bad Bible reading technique and subsequent wrongful interpretation.

It's got all of the fingerprints of deceptive Seventh Day Adventist proselytising. Motto: "Proudly ruining people's lives since 1844, with a unique combination of Proof-texting and horrific theology."
You're 100% correct.
 
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