• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,272
803
Oregon
✟166,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Gal. 4:1-7 deals with the ATONEMENT and the BENEFITS of Christ's redeeming death such as being free from the slavery of sin, being adopted as sons, and have an inheritance in heaven. You interpret this grand passage naturalistically. Baptists must explain away "household" baptisms in any way possible....even if doing injustice to the text. This passage does not indicate children are NOT apart of the nuclear family.
 
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,763
363
52
Atlanta, GA
✟13,263.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I didn't say they are not part of the family. But they are not part of the "household" that was baptized/saved. Baptism is completely ineffectual for those who do not believe. Belief, understanding of the need for a savior, understanding of who Jesus is and what He accomplished, is mandatory for baptism to have any value whatsoever. Infants do not have this understanding. It is not that anyone needs to "explain away" anything. What is required is that you explain how someone who does not and cannot understand their need for a savior can be affected by baptism.
 
Reactions: Wansvic
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,272
803
Oregon
✟166,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Infants do not have this understanding.
John the Baptist was regenerated in the womb...filled the the Holy Spirit.
Jeremiah was filled with the spirit before he was born.
King David said God made him trust in Him upon his mother's breast (Ps. 22:19).
Infants and breast feeding children sang God's praises (Mt. 21:14-16). Jesus Himself confirms this by quoting Psalm 8 And Jesus *said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies You have prepared praise for Yourself’?”

Since faith is a GIFT of God, He can give it to anyone he chooses regardless of age. To deny this is to deny God is omnipotent. There is a certain amount of works righteousness in Baptist theology....believing something in mankind must be present in order to have faith....before God gives them faith....a fully functioning intellectual capacity.

If one has to ‘understand’ before being baptism, then what is this absolute, non-negotiable ‘something’ that must be understood?
And where is this non-negotiable something content for children found in Scripture?
And even if we could establish a non negotiable something, who among us will decide if it is properly understood?”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,763
363
52
Atlanta, GA
✟13,263.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here is part of your error: Faith is not the gift of God. Salvation is the gift of God, and it is received through our faith.
He can give it to anyone he chooses regardless of age. To deny this is to deny God is omnipotent.
Certainly God is omnipotent, But is is also clear in Scripture that God usually does things through man, rather than do things Himself. Even when the things He does cannot possibly be done by man, He requires man's involvement. And the involvement of man is what faith is.
If one has to ‘understand’ before being baptism, then what is this absolute, non-negotiable ‘something’ that must be understood?
One must believe in Jesus as God, and in His sacrifice for our sins.
But to understand that, we must also understand our sin and our need for a savior.
And where is this non-negotiable something content for children found in Scripture?
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16).
"Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord" (Acts 3:19)
And as noted by someone on another forum, there are 211 more passages that link belief/faith with salvation.
And even if we could establish a non negotiable something, who among us will decide if it is properly understood?”
It is properly understood when the person exhibits their faith in Christ through obedience to what He commands (Heb 5:9, James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).
 
Reactions: Wansvic
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,272
803
Oregon
✟166,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Typical Baptist playbook....go to all the passages of Scripture which DO NOT TEACH BAPTISM AND/OR DO NOT MENTION CHILDREN....then extrapolate Baptist assumptions and presuppositions into it. Bad hermenuetics. Contrariwise, for example, if I were to teach a class on Election, I would go to Eph. 1 and 2 and Romans 9; I would not start my study with the genealogies of Matthew and Luke.

It seems to me the best starting point to determine if the NT allows children to be baptized is to go to the passages of Scripture that teach baptism and mention children. Do they allow the practice? We only have two such texts in the NT....the Great Commission and Acts 2:38-39. I shall only deal with Acts in this post.

Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” Here we have two categories of individuals to be baptized. Adults who must repent and children who do not have to. And in the case of infants....it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to repent. Scriptures are replete with commands that only apply to adults....Helping widows, giving alms, feeding the poor, preaching the word, defending the faith, studying scripture do not apply to infants, broke bread, praying, shared their belongings, selling their possessions, and distributed the proceeds to those in need, confessing the faith and repenting. These are activities that infants of believing parents clearly could not participate in.

So why do Paedobaptists baptize infants who CAN NOT repent? It is the promises that are attached to baptism...the forgiveness of sins an the gift of the HS. Most Baptists have real difficulty here as they believe baptism contains no promises....it is purely man's work.

The promises attached to baptism are extremely important those that baptize infants as as baptism is seen as an instrument for the remedy of original sin....all born with imputed guilt. The promise of the "forgiveness of sins" destroys the curse and "gift of the HS" brings Christ and faith to the infant. Pure monergism.

Here we have to make another distinction on the topic of Original Sin....Paedobaptists go in the direction Original sin is a condition one is born into whereas Credobaptists go in the direction of Original Sin is an act of the will. And there is no reconciling these two positions....one is going to be on one side or the other...or on the other hand one can stick their head in the sand...and not decide. Understanding paedobaptism begins with understanding the fall....in one direction infant baptism.....in the other direction, the belief in the Age of Accountability.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,272
803
Oregon
✟166,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
One must believe in Jesus as God, and in His sacrifice for our sins.
But to understand that, we must also understand our sin and our need for a savior.
No Trinity, No Creation, No Resurrection, No Hope, No Judgment, No Prayer. No Eternal life, No going to be with Jesus after death? No need in hearing God's word? No Church? No Lord's Prayer. No Baptism. No Lord's Supper. No ten Commandments. Your listing to too minimalistic for my liking. There is tremendous person to person variability what must be taught children with your listing.

Scripture gives no guidance in what is to be taught to children. But what about historical guidance? What about teaching children the content of the Creeds! The content of the Christian religion is all there in each of the articles which is closer to my listing than yours. The Nicene Creed is the summation of the Christian Faith here at CF.

What about a new Christian who has children? How do new convert adults teach the content of Scripture to their children. We use historical guidance here also. What about a Catechism? Martin Luther wrote his Small Catechism for just such purpose in which the sub-title states: As the head of the family should teach them in a simple way to his household.
 
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,763
363
52
Atlanta, GA
✟13,263.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This discussion is not about baptism (although that IS the point at which we are saved). This discussion is about whether or not children can, or even need to, be saved.

When we study salvation, we begin with all the verses that discuss salvation. Then we narrow that down to just the verses that talk about salvation from sin. Then we search those verse to find the requirements we must meet in order to receive the gift of salvation. The first and most frequently mentioned requirement is belief/faith. Faith/belief is the foundation upon which all other requirements for salvation rest. If we do not believe, doing all the other things mentioned in Scripture in relation to salvation are meaningless. But when we believe the other things have value.
You seemed, in previous posts, to be arguing in favor of infant baptism. But now you are demonstrating that it is not only not necessary, but completely pointless and ineffectual.

But you are correct in this post, baptism is only for adults; only for people who have faith; only for people who understand that they are lost in sin with no hope to save themselves. Salvation, which is received during water baptism requires belief, repentance, and verbal confession of Jesus as Lord.
There is no imputed guilt of the original sin in infants. Children are born with a nature that causes them to sin, but I do not believe that they are not born lost.
Most of the things you list here are either included as details in "belief in Christ" or are not necessary to receive salvation.
Believing in the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit is part of belief in Jesus. If you don't believe He is who He said He was, then you don't really believe in Him.
Believing in Creation is part of belief in the Bible as the Word of God. If you don't believe in Creation, then you don't believe God's Word is without error or conflict, and so don't really believe in God.
Belief in the resurrection is central to belief in Jesus. As 1 Cor 15:17 says, if you don't believe that Jesus was raised from the dead, then your faith is in vain and there is no salvation.
Everyone will go through Judgement, the righteous will be on the right (having already been in Heaven for the wedding celebration of the Church to Christ (Rev 19:11-20:7), and the unrighteous will be on the left and be sent to Hell. But everyone will be there for Judgement.
Eternal life is the reward we are saved to experience. You don't have to believe that it is there, but it is the hope we have.
There is no belief in Christ without hearing the Word of God preached (Rom 10:14).
The "Lord's Prayer" is not a special prayer we must recite. It is a pattern, a principle of prayer that we should emulate.
The Lord's Supper is not for the lost. It is only for those who understand Christ and the Church, because eating and drinking it without proper understanding results in further condemnation.
The ten commandments are part of the Old Covenant, and have no validity in the New Covenant.
There is no "creed" mentioned or listed in Scripture. I have never read all of the nicene creed (having never heard of it until the last couple of years), but I probably know and believe most all of what it teaches. Teaching some creed is teaching the Word of God second hand. It is better to go to the source, not someone else's interpretation of the source.
What about a new Christian who has children? How do new convert adults teach the content of Scripture to their children. We use historical guidance here also.
New Christ followers are still babes in Christ, and so still need to be fed themselves. So the teacher who brought them to Christ (or someone who supports the teacher) should still be there to continue deepening the roots of the new Christ follower and his/her children. You do not send children to feed, educate, and lead other children. Nor should you send babes in Christ to feed, educate, and lead those who are not yet in Christ to Him.
What about a Catechism? Martin Luther wrote his Small Catechism for just such purpose in which the sub-title states: As the head of the family should teach them in a simple way to his household.
Having never really studied any "catchism", I cannot speak to the value or benefit of such a thing. But having read a little bit of one just now, again I find that the best answers are in Scripture, not in someone else's interpretation of what they think of what the Scripture says. The answers in some catchism may or may not be consistent with what Scripture teaches.
 
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,272
803
Oregon
✟166,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This discussion is about whether or not children can, or even need to, be saved.
There is no imputed guilt of the original sin in infants. Children are born with a nature that causes them to sin, but I do not believe that they are not born lost.
All infants born as Adam's descendants are born faithless. This is a transgression of the First Commandment which is a violation of the will of God (I John 3:4). In this sense, the adult heathen is on the same playing field as an infant....faithless.

Scriptures state...."whatever is not from faith is sin" Romans 14:23 and "without faith it is impossible to please God."

If there were any incompatibles of Scripture faithlessness or unbelief against "no other gods" is it.

Infants are guilty from the get go.

And this is where baptism comes in....the promises of the forgiveness of sins destroying the curse and the gift the HS which gives faith. Original sin and baptism are inextricably linked together
 
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,272
803
Oregon
✟166,537.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The ten commandments are part of the Old Covenant, and have no validity in the New Covenant.
All the Ten Commandments except "graven images" and "Sabbath day keeping" are reiterated in the New Testament. They are morally binding on all NT Christians. You are DEAD wrong here my friend.

Adults who must repent and children who do not have to. And in the case of infants....it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to repent.
Non responsive. The Scriptural statement in Acts 2:39 "this promise is to YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN" is one of the most ignored by Credobaptists....they refuse to comment on it. And refusing to comment on it is on par with "explaining away infant baptism." Of course, this verse is the basis for household baptism of children, but many credos dismiss this fact.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Doug Brents

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2021
1,763
363
52
Atlanta, GA
✟13,263.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I can see where you are coming from, but don't agree with your conclusion. Children have the greatest faith of all. Children are born with an innate trust and reliance on their parents, and this is the very nature of faith. God commands us to become trusting and faith-filled like children are.
And this is where baptism comes in....the promises of the forgiveness of sins destroying the curse and the gift the HS which gives faith. Original sin and baptism are inextricably linked together
Original sin condemned everyone in that it caused our sinful nature, and brought death and corruption into the natural world, but no child is guilty of the parent's sin. He may be punished for the parent's sin, but he is not guilty of the sin his parent sinned.
All the Ten Commandments except "graven images" and "Sabbath day keeping" are reiterated in the New Testament. They are morally binding on all NT Christians. You are DEAD wrong here my friend.
The graven images commandment is also given in the NT. But it is not the ten commandments from the OT that are valid or morally binding on NT Christ followers. It is the reiteration in the NT that makes it binding on the NT Christ follower, which is why keeping the sabbath is not a requirement of the NT Christ follower.
Non responsive. The Scriptural statement in Acts 2:39 "this promise is to YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN" is one of the most ignored by Credobaptists....they refuse to comment on it.
The promise is to your, and to your children when they can themselves repent, and confess Jesus as Lord, and be baptized as believing adults (or even youths). But an infant cannot believe, because they do not comprehend their own sinfulness.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,342
5,870
Minnesota
✟329,648.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Baptism replaced circumcision. The faith of the parents was enough for circumcision:

Genesis 17: 12 He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "each individual must have their own faith, and their own confidence in Christ Jesus for baptism to have any effect." That is a man-made teaching. There is nothing about God changing His mind and deciding to exclude children, in fact Jesus said He wanted the children to come to Him.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,345
1,833
76
Paignton
✟75,994.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Nowhere in the bible do we find those exact words, each individual must have their own faith, and their own confidence in Christ Jesus for baptism to have any effect." However, when we read of people being baptized, we find plenty of examples of belief coming first. There is the case of the Ethiopian, whom Philip Baptised:

“Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.” (Ac 8:36-38 NKJV)

Then we have the jailer at Philippi and his household:

“And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his [family] were baptized. Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.” (Ac 16:30-34 NKJV)
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
12,342
5,870
Minnesota
✟329,648.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Yes, that's the way it is for adult converts in the Catholic Church to this day.
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,757
5,818
60
Mississippi
✟321,524.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
-
This including water baptism in the same conservation with how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life. By only belief in Jesus, is really sad and just shows how polluted the message of life is for so many.
With many human fashioned, ideas (requirements) added to the message of life, Jesus taught and proclaimed while He was on earth.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bro.T

Bible Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 17, 2008
2,734
299
U.S.
✟305,155.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

Some say you must obey God's word, but then they turn around and teach contrary to God's word. At best they never get around to explaining exactly what kind of works are needed to get eternal life. A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).
 
Upvote 0

BibleBeliever1611

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2020
478
207
29
Vantaa
✟105,577.00
Country
Finland
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
As a born again Christian you should not have death faith, we should all have living faith by doing works. But that's not a guarantee because if you become back-slidden your faith could become dead. But even dead faith is still faith and you're still saved even if your faith is dead. Once saved always saved.
 
Upvote 0

Wansvic

Active Member
Jun 16, 2020
191
52
Virginia
✟46,168.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Apostle Paul gave a profound warning. He knew that even after preaching to others he could himself be castaway. His warning applies to everyone. Once saved always saved is a deception.

"And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Cor. 9:25-27)

Also, if salvation is a done deal why did Paul say everyone is to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling? (Philippians 2:12)
 
Upvote 0

Bro.T

Bible Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 17, 2008
2,734
299
U.S.
✟305,155.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't think you and Brothers James on the same page, Let's see, what the book says in James 2: Lets go into (James 2: (v.14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? (v.15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of a daily food, (v.16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? If someone came to you hungry and needed clothes and all you told them was peace be unto you, and God bless you, be ye warmed and filled. All you did was give lip service, no works, you didn’t help the problem.

(v.17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. The bible has been telling you all alone that you must have fruits to prove your faith. (v.18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. True faith goes hand in hand with good works. (v.20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Did you know that? Has anybody ever read this verse to you? How can you, after reading this verse ever say again that we need not work? You can have all the faith you want, but if you have no works to go along with that faith, that faith is in vain, that faith is dead. (v.21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? We read where Abraham, the father of the faithful showed the Lord his faith by his works. (v.22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (v.23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: and he was called the friend of God.

(v.24) Ye see then how that by works a man is Justified, and not by faith only. Do you see that also? Do you understand that you need works to go along with that faith; if you love and fear God then you should have no problem obeying his commandments. (v.26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Take it or leave it, but this is the true uncut word of God. Just as the body is dead when you take away the spirit (breath) so faith is dead if you have no works.

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
759
222
65
Boonsboro
✟89,654.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am not sure exactly what you’re trying to say. Perhaps we agree, but are just saying it in two different ways. If a person is doing anything in order to receive salvation, it is no longer a free gift, but it is a wage for the action they did. Even children who receives a nice bicycle for getting good grades is not receiving a free gift. It’s receiving a wage for the good grades.

It is true that faith that works is dead, but you cannot bring dead faith back to life by adding works. It would be like having a cat that stopped moving because it was dead and so you started moving it thinking you could bring it back to life. When James describes a dead faith, that’s what he’s doing. He’s not giving a prescription for making it come back to life. Only God can bring things back to life and that includes our faith.
 
Upvote 0

Bro.T

Bible Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 17, 2008
2,734
299
U.S.
✟305,155.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat

Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. This doesn’t sound like Paul thinks that he has guarantee salvation.

Also Paul says in (Rom. 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. If there is no law, there is no sin!
 
Upvote 0