WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

[Doug Brents]

Titus 3: 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

When did He show His mercy to us in offering us salvation? While we were still sinners, lost, condemned, and with no hope of ever being reunited to Him. That is when He showed His mercy to us in offering Christ Jesus to die for our sins.

But that is not when we receive His gift. He offered the gift while we were still sinners and enemies to Him, but we receive His gift when we are obedient to His command. If there is no obedience, then He is not Lord to us, and His gift is not received.

 

[Doug Brents]

Genesis 17: 9-14
9 And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” RSVCE

This passage is great, and it answers many questions, but not the question I asked.
I asked, "Where in Scripture (book, chapter, and verse) does it say that the faith of the parents is enough for the infant?", especially as it relates to NT salvation through baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

You wouldn't get it unless you did it.

This is a distinction without a difference.

You don't get wages if you don't do the work, and you don't receive a gift if you don't meet the condition for receiving the gift.

But this is a very big difference; the difference between something owed and a gift. The difference between a hired servant and a son. The hired servant has a claim on the master/employer for the wages agreed upon that could be taken to court. The son receives gifts because of the love of the Father, but could not argue that fact in court.

An example of a gift with conditions could be the gift of a new car to your soon-to-be-16 year old child. You give him a car that he did not work for, or "earn" in any way. But he cannot legally use the car until he turns 16 and has his driver's license.

 

[Valletta]

This passage is great, and it answers many questions, but not the question I asked.
I asked, "Where in Scripture (book, chapter, and verse) does it say that the faith of the parents is enough for the infant?", especially as it relates to NT salvation through baptism.

Infants were circumcised, Baptism replaced circumcision. As in OT times, the faith of the parents was enough. Jesus came not to abolish but to fulfill. There is no record of Jesus excluding infants from being saved, to the contrary, Jesus wanted the children to come to Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

Infants were circumcised, Baptism replaced circumcision. As in OT times, the faith of the parents was enough. Jesus came not to abolish but to fulfill. There is no record of Jesus excluding infants from being saved, to the contrary, Jesus wanted the children to come to Him.

No, baptism did not replace circumcision. That is a supposition that has no basis in Scripture.

Under the OT, the parents were commanded to teach their faith to their children "when you go out and when you come in, when you lie down and when you get up" etc. But that was to bring the children into their own faith, not so they could rely on their parent's faith. Under the NT, each person is commanded to believe (for himself, not for anyone else) in the Gospel of Jesus. John 3:16 - "who ever believes (has faith)", not if someone else believes for you.

 

[Valletta]

No, baptism did not replace circumcision. That is a supposition that has no basis in Scripture.

Under the OT, the parents were commanded to teach their faith to their children "when you go out and when you come in, when you lie down and when you get up" etc. But that was to bring the children into their own faith, not so they could rely on their parent's faith. Under the NT, each person is commanded to believe (for himself, not for anyone else) in the Gospel of Jesus. John 3:16 - "who ever believes (has faith)", not if someone else believes for you.

That's for adult converts, same as today in Christ's Church. It's the same today too for infants, remember the Bible tells us whole households were baptized.

 

[Doug Brents]

That's for adult converts, same as today in Christ's Church. It's the same today too for infants, remember the Bible tells us whole households were baptized.

Where does it say that this only applies to adult converts? Unless you can show the Scripture that makes that distinction, then it is just your personal opinion.

Children and infants were not considered part of the household. They were almost considered property (Gal 4:1-7, speaks to this fact). When one is a child he does not have authority, nor does he have the reasoning power, knowledge, or experience to understand that he is a sinner, that he needs a savior, that Jesus is that savior, or even what it means to be saved. Without this understanding, baptism does nothing more than get him wet.

 

[Mercy Shown]

You don't get wages if you don't do the work, and you don't receive a gift if you don't meet the condition for receiving the gift.

A gift with conditions is not a gift. The gift was given to sinners who were dead to God, People dead to God caonnot meet conditions. Once brought to life, they can then reject the gift. WHo is it the writes the law on the fleshly tablets of the heart? It is God, the author and finisher of our faith. That faith is the only thing needed for salvation. It triggers a string of events which includes baptism if possible. As Jesus said to Zacchaeus, "Today salvation has come to this house." Though it is not recorded, I am sure after this salvation came, Zacchaeus and his family were baptised.

But this is a very big difference; the difference between something owed and a gift. The difference between a hired servant and a son. The hired servant has a claim on the master/employer for the wages agreed upon that could be taken to court. The son receives gifts because of the love of the Father, but could not argue that fact in court.

An example of a gift with conditions could be the gift of a new car to your soon-to-be-16 year old child. You give him a car that he did not work for, or "earn" in any way. But he cannot legally use the car until he turns 16 and has his driver's license.

Using the car and recieveing the car as a gift are two different things. The son does not have to be 16 nor does he need a driver's liscense to recieve the car. The condition of using it on public roadways is not the edict of his father, It is the edict of the state.

 

[Valletta]

Where does it say that this only applies to adult converts? Unless you can show the Scripture that makes that distinction, then it is just your personal opinion.

Children and infants were not considered part of the household. They were almost considered property (Gal 4:1-7, speaks to this fact). When one is a child he does not have authority, nor does he have the reasoning power, knowledge, or experience to understand that he is a sinner, that he needs a savior, that Jesus is that savior, or even what it means to be saved. Without this understanding, baptism does nothing more than get him wet.

Slaves and children were part of the household. Infants were circumcised when eight days old. They didn't wait for a child's consent.

 

[Mercy Shown]

When did He show His mercy to us in offering us salvation? While we were still sinners, lost, condemned, and with no hope of ever being reunited to Him. That is when He showed His mercy to us in offering Christ Jesus to die for our sins.

God reveals that His mercy are daily.
Lamentations 3:22-23 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.

But that is not when we receive His gift. He offered the gift while we were still sinners and enemies to Him, but we receive His gift when we are obedient to His command. If there is no obedience, then He is not Lord to us, and His gift is not received.

We cannot be obedient until we recieve the gift. The dead cannot obey. If I obey for salvation, then salvation is a wage for my obedience. One who does not obey is not saved but not because of disobedience and they can't start obeying to be saved. Obedience is a fruit of salvation.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Slaves and children were part of the household. Infants were circumcised when eight days old. They didn't wait for a child's consent.

Good point. For some baptism is the new circumcision rather than a celebration and public declaration of our identifying with Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

A gift with conditions is not a gift.

Not true. Again, let's say that I purchase a car and give it to you. But you live in a city far from where I do, so I purchase it remotely from a dealer near you. I instruct him that when you show up, he is to give you the keys and then do all maintenance and refueling of the vehicle for as long as you live. But you must show up to his dealership to receive the keys. Now, if you never show up, you NEVER have use of the vehicle; it does you no good, even though you "own" it. That constitutes a gift with conditions. You showing up provides absolutely NO value to the purchase of the vehicle. You have nothing to brag about, because you did not contribute in any way to the purchase. But if you don't show up, then you continue to walk (or hitchhike) everywhere you go.

The gift was given to sinners who were dead to God, People dead to God caonnot meet conditions.

Yes, they can. Dead to God does not mean nonexistent, nor does it mean incapable of action. Adam was dead to God the moment he touched the Tree of Knowledge, but he spoke to God, he was clothed by God, and he lived another 900+ years physically after he died spiritually.

Once brought to life, they can then reject the gift. WHo is it the writes the law on the fleshly tablets of the heart? It is God, the author and finisher of our faith. That faith is the only thing needed for salvation.

God is the author of our faith, meaning He is the one in whom our faith rests. And He is the finisher of our faith, meaning He is the one who fulfills the promises He made. But it does not mean that He is the one who gives us faith. Faith is not the gift that is mentioned in Eph 2:8-9; that gift is salvation.

It triggers a string of events which includes baptism if possible. As Jesus said to Zacchaeus, "Today salvation has come to this house." Though it is not recorded, I am sure after this salvation came, Zacchaeus and his family were baptised.

This, like the thief on the cross, occurred during Jesus' life. During that time He had full authority to forgive sin at His sole discretion (Mat 9:6). But after His death, His will (last will and testament) is set and cannot be changed (Heb 9:16-17).

Using the car and recieveing the car as a gift are two different things. The son does not have to be 16 nor does he need a driver's liscense to recieve the car. The condition of using it on public roadways is not the edict of his father, It is the edict of the state.

It is a condition for his use, and therefore benefit, of the vehicle. But the better example is at the top of this post. There can be conditions for gifts, and it doesn't matter who set the condition. The condition still exists for the use of, and benefit of having, the gift.

We cannot be obedient until we recieve the gift. The dead cannot obey. If I obey for salvation, then salvation is a wage for my obedience. One who does not obey is not saved but not because of disobedience and they can't start obeying to be saved. Obedience is a fruit of salvation.

To whom is Jesus the author of salvation according to Heb 5:9? This does not say that those who are saved obey. It says that those who obey are saved. You are trying to reverse the Scriptural order of events.

 

[Doug Brents]

Slaves and children were part of the household. Infants were circumcised when eight days old. They didn't wait for a child's consent.

The OT example in this case is irrelevant. The mandate for circumcision was not so that the child could be saved. It was solely that he would be included in the nation of Israel. There were many who were included in the nation of Israel who were not saved. Salvation, even under the OT, was still an individual by individual thing, not a national thing.

As I have shown you, NT requirements for salvation require that the person being baptized exhibit their own faith, not the faith of their parents or anyone else's, in order to receive salvation.

 

[Valletta]

The OT example in this case is irrelevant. The mandate for circumcision was not so that the child could be saved. It was solely that he would be included in the nation of Israel. There were many who were included in the nation of Israel who were not saved. Salvation, even under the OT, was still an individual by individual thing, not a national thing.

As I have shown you, NT requirements for salvation require that the person being baptized exhibit their own faith, not the faith of their parents or anyone else's, in order to receive salvation.

There is no such NT requirement.

 

[Doug Brents]

There is no such NT requirement.

You have clearly not read Scripture much if you believe that.
Rom 6:1-7
Col 2:11-14
Gal 3:26-27
Eph 5:26-27
1 Pet 3:21
Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16
Acts 8:36-38
Acts 22:16
And there are many others that relate to baptism.
and there are also the requirements of repentance
Acts 3:19 and others,
and confession of Jesus as Lord
Rom 10:9-10 and others.

 

[Valletta]

You have clearly not read Scripture much if you believe that.
Rom 6:1-7
Col 2:11-14
Gal 3:26-27
Eph 5:26-27
1 Pet 3:21
Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16
Acts 8:36-38
Acts 22:16
And there are many others that relate to baptism.
and there are also the requirements of repentance
Acts 3:19 and others,
and confession of Jesus as Lord
Rom 10:9-10 and others.

You're jumping to a false conclusion. Our Lord made no such requirement, He wanted the children to come to Him.

 

[Doug Brents]

You're jumping to a false conclusion. Our Lord made no such requirement, He wanted the children to come to Him.

No jumping to conclusions at all. Read what the text in those passages says. And when you compare this with all the rest of Scripture, there is no contradiction, just as there is no contradiction between what Mark and John say about what was written on the charge against Jesus on the cross. John gives a more complete and detailed explanation of what was on the charge than Mark does. But that doesn't make John's version wrong, nor does it make Mark's version incomplete. They give the details that are necessary to their target audience. This is the same that many passages about salvation do: they don't give all the details (John 3:16), but rely on what is written in other places (like Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, etc.) to complete the picture of what is required.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Children and infants were not considered part of the household.

What?

I Tim. 3:12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.
I Tim. 3:4 4 [A pastor] must be the one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity.

In Paul's statement a household and children are strictly linked together.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Eph. 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

*********

Please give chapter and verse that clearly states children and infants are not apart of the family....or even worse...second class individuals. Or do you believe children of believers are chattel?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Slaves and children were part of the household. Infants were circumcised when eight days old. They didn't wait for a child's consent.

The NT doesn't have any hard and fast rules concerning the interpretation of the term οἴκων (household); it can refer to servants or it can refer to children or both (I Tim. 3:4, 12). By far the widest meaning application of the word “οἴκων” would be all the citizens in a nation’s political bureaucracy where “Pharaoh, king of Egypt, made Joseph governor over Egypt and all his household. (Acts 7:10). There is no narrow clear usage of the word "οἴκων" which refers to only servants of a family, kinfolk, clan, tribe, nation, etc. in the NT.

The best example of this is the Philippinean jailer's household baptism. I remember reading a few years back about how John MacArthur said this baptism only for the jailer's slaves not his children. Then someone commented on this: Do you mean that the jailor was so wealthy and rich he had to take a job as a jailor, working the graveyard shift, in which any mistake would end up in execution? How many wealthy people today who have maids and butlers, take a job like that? Would you?

In all likelihood, the jailor was working for a denarius a day for the Roman government. He didn't own slaves....his children were baptized.

 

[Doug Brents]

What?

I Tim. 3:12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.
I Tim. 3:4 4 [A pastor] must be the one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity.

In Paul's statement a household and children are strictly linked together.

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Eph. 6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

*********

Please give chapter and verse that clearly states children and infants are not apart of the family....or even worse...second class individuals. Or do you believe children of believers are chattel?

Do you even read the passages posted or cited in posts? Obviously not, because I already posted the relevant passage. Gal 4:1 says that even though the heir is the owner of everything (or will be when his father dies), when he is a child he is no better than a slave.

But when the child comes of age, he moves from being equal with the servants and slaves to being the master of everything in the house.

But read the passages you posted. A deacon must manage both his children AND his household (two separate things). The elder must manage his household and also keep his children under control. A household leader (father, husband, "man of the house") is required to provide for everything and everyone that is under his care, including the servants, children, animals, buildings, etc. But that does not make the servants equal with the master, nor does it make the children part of the "household".