WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?

[Doug Brents]

Focusing on selected texts does not help one divide the word of truth correctly. Take this passage for instance.

Titus 3:5-7​

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It is clear here what saves us and this message is through out the Bible. You seem to believe that coming to Christ is not enough, but it is. The moment one believes and confesses that belief they are saved.

Baptism has no salvational power. If it is indeed salvational then infant baptism is an important doctrine since in baptized children are damned.

You want to pit Scripture against Scripture, but they do not compete, they complete. Titus makes the statement that we are saved by God's mercy (which we are), and not because of works of righteousness we have done to earn or deserve salvation (which is correct).

But that does not negate the truth in other verses:
like Rom 10:9-10 which state clearly that we receive salvation through the physical action of confession Jesus as Lord with the mouth (a verbal and public (Matt 101:32-33) confession);
or like Acts 22:16 which says that in baptism Paul's sins were washed away;
or like 1 Pet 3:21 which says clearly that it is in water baptism that we are saved (not by removing dirt from our flesh, but by God giving us a clean conscience by the power of Jesus' blood);
or like Acts 3:19 which says that repentance is essential to receive salvation.

Salvation is not received "the moment one believes and confesses that belief". If that were so, then there would be none to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you!", as He says He will to many in Matt 7:21-23). They cast out demons and did other mighty works in His name believing that He was their Lord and that they were His servants. But they had not obeyed Him, and were still lost in sin having NEVER been saved.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Salvation is not received "the moment one believes and confesses that belief". If that were so, then there would be none to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you!", as He says He will to many in Matt 7:21-23). They cast out demons and did other mighty works in His name believing that He was their Lord and that they were His servants. But they had not obeyed Him, and were still lost in sin having NEVER been saved.

This would be a valid point if these people had actually believed on Jesus. But they did not. They never put thier faith in Jesus. They put their faith in their own righteousness and goodness. They did not even have enough faith to surrender their lives to him.

Now, Romans 1:17 states “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’”

It does not say the righteous shall live by baptism. Does one recieve this righteousness by baptism or by faith?

Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. No, it does not say by baptism.

It is the blood of Jesus that gives us the remission of sin. Matt 26:28

Anyone who truly receives Christ will be eager to express it in baptism. But if circumstances bar them from doing so, they will not be lost. If a person chooses not to be baptized even though they have the opportunity to do so, how could they have truly surrendered to Christ?

Do you really believe that the Christian’s children who were murdered by Rome in front of their parents will be lost because they were not baptized yet? Salvation is of the Lord.

 

[Doug Brents]

This would be a valid point if these people had actually believed on Jesus. But they did not. They never put thier faith in Jesus. They put their faith in their own righteousness and goodness. They did not even have enough faith to surrender their lives to him.

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
The point is that these people thought that they had believed in His name, and were saved. But what did Jesus say just before this? "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Who enters? Not those who just believe. Not those who just call Him, "Lord". But those who actually DO HIS WILL (obey Him).

Now, Romans 1:17 states “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’”

It does not say the righteous shall live by baptism. Does one recieve this righteousness by baptism or by faith?

By faith. But what is "faith"? James says that faith MUST include action, or it is not real (James 2:14-26). Thus, just "believing" is not faith. Just having a conviction in your heart is not faith. Faith must have the internal conviction AND the actions of obedience in response to that conviction.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness. No, it does not say by baptism.

Correct, baptism was not necessary for Abraham, because it was not yet a command for him. Baptism is a New Covenant mandate, not part of the OT.

It is the blood of Jesus that gives us the remission of sin. Matt 26:28

True, and we connect with the blood of Jesus IN BAPTISM:
Matthew 26:27-28: Jesus says that his blood is shed for the remission of sins
Acts 2:38: Peter says that baptism in Jesus' name is for the remission of sins
1 John 1:7: The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin
1 John 5:6: Jesus came by water and blood
Colossians 2:12,13: Baptism washes us in the blood of the Lamb and cleanses us of our sins

Anyone who truly receives Christ will be eager to express it in baptism.

We cannot receive Christ without baptism:
Gal 3:26-27: it is in baptism that we are clothed with Christ and become children of God.
Eph 5:26-27: it is in baptism that we are made spotless, pure, and holy and are made the bride of Christ

But if circumstances bar them from doing so, they will not be lost.

This will be God's call to make, but any exception He might make does not invalidate the rule. We must only teach what He has said, not try to find loopholes or exceptions. He has shown many times that He does not grant exceptions (the man who put his hand on the Ark to steady it and died, and many other examples in the OT).

If a person chooses not to be baptized even though they have the opportunity to do so, how could they have truly surrendered to Christ?

This is true.

Do you really believe that the Christian’s children who were murdered by Rome in front of their parents will be lost because they were not baptized yet? Salvation is of the Lord.

No, I believe that children are "safe". I believe that children, before what some call the "age of accountability" are "safe", and will go to Heaven if they die (sin is not credited where there is no law). But at some point (when? I don't know) each person comes to the point where they know right and choose wrong. At that point they are accountable and are responsible for their sin and are "lost". That person must then either come to Christ in faith to become "saved", or they remain lost. This is my opinion based upon many Scriptures (not the least of which is David saying that he would go to his infant son who died).

 

[Wansvic]

You want to pit Scripture against Scripture, but they do not compete, they complete. Titus makes the statement that we are saved by God's mercy (which we are), and not because of works of righteousness we have done to earn or deserve salvation (which is correct).

But that does not negate the truth in other verses:
like Rom 10:9-10 which state clearly that we receive salvation through the physical action of confession Jesus as Lord with the mouth (a verbal and public (Matt 101:32-33) confession);
or like Acts 22:16 which says that in baptism Paul's sins were washed away;
or like 1 Pet 3:21 which says clearly that it is in water baptism that we are saved (not by removing dirt from our flesh, but by God giving us a clean conscience by the power of Jesus' blood);
or like Acts 3:19 which says that repentance is essential to receive salvation.

Salvation is not received "the moment one believes and confesses that belief". If that were so, then there would be none to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you!", as He says He will to many in Matt 7:21-23). They cast out demons and did other mighty works in His name believing that He was their Lord and that they were His servants. But they had not obeyed Him, and were still lost in sin having NEVER been saved.

Another thing that might help those struggling to accept the truth is that the account in Matthew 7 reveals why Jesus NEVER knew those who believed in Him. They neglected to lay a proper foundation as indicated by verses 24-28.

The Book of Hebrews expresses the difference between foundation and Christian living principles; milk and strong meat.

The writer is addressing those who have obeyed the elementary teachings and already have a foundation in place. This is expressed by his comment that it is not necessary to “lay again” the foundation.

The foundational elements discussed, parallel the details contained in the message first presented on the Day of Pentecost that result in people experiencing the NT rebirth. (Acts 2:38) In essence, the Hebrew writer’s comments reflect the following:

• All must obey Jesus in order for a proper foundation to be put in place. (See Heb 6:1-2 below)
• Once the foundation is laid it is not necessary to lay it again, nor is it possible. The NT rebirth is a one-time event culminating from belief in Jesus, repentance, water baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit.
• It is at the point of rebirth that the real journey begins. It is a life-long journey for those willing to be led by the Holy Spirit in pursuit of the “meat” that results in becoming more and more Christ-like.

Scripture references that apply to the above comments:

• “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.´ Heb 5:9
• “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
• For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Heb 5:12-14

Note the foundation of the teaching of Christ includes repentance, water baptism, and Holy Ghost baptism by the laying on of hands:

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1-2)

 

[Mercy Shown]

Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
The point is that these people thought that they had believed in His name, and were saved.

They believed that they were saved because of the things they did not because they believed on his name.

In essence, it would be the same thing as the Pharisees, who believed that they were blessed by God because of their good works or in modern times those who believe there is something they must do or can do to earn their salvation rather than simply having faith in Jesus.

But what did Jesus say just before this? "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." Who enters? Not those who just believe. Not those who just call Him, "Lord". But those who actually DO HIS WILL (obey Him).

They simply did not believe. Believing is the key to the salvation Christ offers. If they had believed they would have relied on Jesus Christ for their salvation and not their works.

As Jesus said, why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say.

So as you can see, simply believing is all that there is required. It will bring one into Christ which will result in all the rest, including obedience, repentance, salvation, and baptism.

As our Lord said, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3:18.

 

[Wansvic]

They believed that they were saved because of the things they did not because they believed on his name.

In essence, it would be the same thing as the Pharisees, who believed that they were blessed by God because of their good works or in modern times those who believe there is something they must do or can do to earn their salvation rather than simply having faith in Jesus.

They simply did not believe. Believing is the key to the salvation Christ offers. If they had believed they would have relied on Jesus Christ for their salvation and not their works.

As Jesus said, why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say.

So as you can see, simply believing is all that there is required. It will bring one into Christ which will result in all the rest, including obedience, repentance, salvation, and baptism.

As our Lord said, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3:18.

Jesus actually said whosover hears His SAYINGS and DOES THEM has built correctly, whereas, those who DO NOT DO THEM have not. This is the exact opposite of what you believe.

Please read the account again. It reveals the believers in Jesus neglected to abide by His sayings. The account in Luke 6:48 clarifies the same thing.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayingS of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayingS of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:" (teaching) Matt. 7:23-28

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the thingS which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." Luke 6:46-49


Hebrews 6:1-2 reveals the foundation elements. They parallel the gospel message and instructions first given at Pentecost. (Acts 2:4, 33, 36-42)

 

[Mercy Shown]

Jesus actually said whosover hears His SAYINGS and DOES THEM has built correctly, whereas, those who DO NOT DO THEM have not. This is the exact opposite of what you believe.

Let’s avoid this type of discourse.

 

[Wansvic]

Let’s avoid this type of discourse.

This TYPE of discourse?

Why would anyone want to avoid discussing the truth? It is the lack of knowledge that results in people going straight to hell as evidenced in the very account we're discussing.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayingS of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayingS of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:" (teaching) Matt. 7:23-28

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the thingS which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." Luke 6:46-49

 

[Mercy Shown]

This TYPE of discourse?

Why would anyone want to avoid discussing the truth? It is the lack of knowledge that results in people going straight to hell as evidenced in the very account we're discussing.

You are making accusations against me personally rather than sticking to the topic. This creates a strong temptation to answer in kind but Jesus does not want this for me.

So let’s discuss the truth and avoid ad hominem references. Do you believe that any human has the right to judge the eternal destination of another person?

In the previous exchange you made the accusation that I believe the opposite of the words of my Lord. You made this actuation as a blanket statement instead of quoting what you think was something opposite of what He says. I do not believe anything opposite of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Hebrews 6:1-2 reveals the foundation elements. They parallel the gospel message and instructions first given at Pentecost. (Acts 2:4, 33, 36-42)

This does not establish baptism as salvific. It does reveal the actions of a saved person unless circumstances prohibit such. You still have not addressed infant baptism other than to disavow it, but since those souls are unbaptized, according to your doctrine, they must be unsaved. Therefore, according to what you are teaching, the Catholics have it right.

Furthermore, Jesus taught that "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son". ~John 3:18 God revealed through Paul that, "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" ~Romans 5:9

As you can see, we are not condemned by believing in Jesus and not ourselves or our "good works," and we are justified by His blood and saved through Him. John 3:16 tell us that whoever believes in him, unlike those who believed in their own miracle-working, will not perish but have everlasting life.

Jesus saves us through His death on the cross, as Heb 10:14 states, "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Once we believe Jesus has become our Lord and Saviour, and we turn from disobedience to obedience in repentance, we get baptized according to His command unless it is impossible. God is the cause, and baptism is the effect.

Acts 2:4 states,"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them." This happened on the day of Pentecost without any mention of baptism. If we claim that they were all baptized, we can only do that as an opinion since there is no record of such. If we argue that they were baptized or else they would not have received the Holy Spirit, we are using a very tight circular reasoning. So, as you can see, we cannot establish this as a result of baptism.

Acts 2:33 states, Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." Again, there is no causal effect tied to baptism here.

Acts 2:36-42
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Concerning verse 38 specifically, we should examine the word "for" from the Greek word "eis," which appears 1,774 times in the New Testament and can be translated in various ways, similar to the English word "for." This leads to several interpretations of the passage: some suggest baptism is necessary for salvation, while others argue it is not. Notable Greek scholars like A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey assert that in Acts 2:38, "eis" should be understood as "because of" or "in view of," rather than "in order to."

When we combine this with what the bible says about salvation the conclusion becomes clear. What saves us? Faith in Jesus sacrifice for our sins.

Supporting Bible verses

• John 1:12
• John 3:16
• Acts 16:31
• Romans 3:21-30
• Romans 4:5
• Romans 10:9-10
• Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Mercy Shown]

Why would anyone want to avoid discussing the truth? It is the lack of knowledge that results in people going straight to hell as evidenced in the very account we're discussing.

Yes, let's discuss the truth without casting stones at each other. It is a very simple thing for the human heart to believe that their position on bible texts is the truth whether it is or not. Truth is not a set of "proof texts" it is a person: Jesus Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

They believed that they were saved because of the things they did not because they believed on his name.

In essence, it would be the same thing as the Pharisees, who believed that they were blessed by God because of their good works or in modern times those who believe there is something they must do or can do to earn their salvation rather than simply having faith in Jesus.

They believed He was their Lord, and that the things they did demonstrated that He was their Lord. But they did not obey Him. Yes, there are things that we must do to receive salvation, not that they earn salvation but they are actions without which we do not receive His gift/blessing.

They simply did not believe. Believing is the key to the salvation Christ offers. If they had believed they would have relied on Jesus Christ for their salvation and not their works.

As Jesus said, why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say.

So as you can see, simply believing is all that there is required. It will bring one into Christ which will result in all the rest, including obedience, repentance, salvation, and baptism.

As our Lord said, “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.” John 3:18.

So "belief" is the ONLY thing that ANY Scripture says is required to receive salvation? Sorry, but that would mean that Romans is not Scripture, because in Rom 10:9-10 Paul says that the verbal confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS in receiving salvation. And Acts would also not be Scripture. Because in Acts 3:19 Luke tells us that repentance from sin RESULTS in receiving salvation. These are just examples, but they show that "belief" is NOT the ONLY thing that God commands of us to receive His gift of salvation.

 

[Wansvic]

You are making accusations against me personally rather than sticking to the topic. This creates a strong temptation to answer in kind but Jesus does not want this for me.

So let’s discuss the truth and avoid ad hominem references. Do you believe that any human has the right to judge the eternal destination of another person?

In the previous exchange you made the accusation that I believe the opposite of the words of my Lord. You made this actuation as a blanket statement instead of quoting what you think was something opposite of what He says. I do not believe anything opposite of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

I apologize. It certainly was not my intention to insult you. The point I was trying to make is the account reveals something different than what you believe. The people were guilty of disobedience. They neglected to take steps of faith in accordance with the word that would have resulted in their being born again. Therefore, all their efforts were in vain.

Jesus knows those who have been buried with HIm into His death through water baptism in His name, and have received the Holy Spirit, The NT rebirth is not optional; it is foundational. (Heb. 6:1-2, Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) It is imperative that people obey Jesus' command and wait to be equipped for ministry by first being born again. (Luke 26-49)


"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the thingS which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." Luke 6:46-49

 

[Wansvic]

This does not establish baptism as salvific. It does reveal the actions of a saved person unless circumstances prohibit such. You still have not addressed infant baptism other than to disavow it, but since those souls are unbaptized, according to your doctrine, they must be unsaved. Therefore, according to what you are teaching, the Catholics have it right.

Furthermore, Jesus taught that "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son". ~John 3:18 God revealed through Paul that, "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" ~Romans 5:9

As you can see, we are not condemned by believing in Jesus and not ourselves or our "good works," and we are justified by His blood and saved through Him. John 3:16 tell us that whoever believes in him, unlike those who believed in their own miracle-working, will not perish but have everlasting life.

Jesus saves us through His death on the cross, as Heb 10:14 states, "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Once we believe Jesus has become our Lord and Saviour, and we turn from disobedience to obedience in repentance, we get baptized according to His command unless it is impossible. God is the cause, and baptism is the effect.

Acts 2:4 states,"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them." This happened on the day of Pentecost without any mention of baptism. If we claim that they were all baptized, we can only do that as an opinion since there is no record of such. If we argue that they were baptized or else they would not have received the Holy Spirit, we are using a very tight circular reasoning. So, as you can see, we cannot establish this as a result of baptism.

Acts 2:33 states, Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear." Again, there is no causal effect tied to baptism here.

Acts 2:36-42
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Concerning verse 38 specifically, we should examine the word "for" from the Greek word "eis," which appears 1,774 times in the New Testament and can be translated in various ways, similar to the English word "for." This leads to several interpretations of the passage: some suggest baptism is necessary for salvation, while others argue it is not. Notable Greek scholars like A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey assert that in Acts 2:38, "eis" should be understood as "because of" or "in view of," rather than "in order to."

When we combine this with what the bible says about salvation the conclusion becomes clear. What saves us? Faith in Jesus sacrifice for our sins.

Supporting Bible verses

• John 1:12
• John 3:16
• Acts 16:31
• Romans 3:21-30
• Romans 4:5
• Romans 10:9-10
• Ephesians 2:8-10

Jesus said unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot see or enter the kingdom, and all detailed conversion accounts reveal both water and Spirit are essential elements of the NT rebirth.

I do not accept, as some, that receiving the Holy Spirit takes place during water baptism. Scripture reveals water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Spirit are both required regardless of sequence. (John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

I've addressed the fact that Infant baptism is not scriptural. Infants and young children do not have the mental capacity to make the choice whether or not to accept Jesus and obey His teachings. The biblical record reveals there is an age of accountability. (Numbers 14:26-29) As such, those who die prior to reaching that point are not destined for hell. It is only a personal opinion, but I believe it is possible that they will be given the opportunity to make a choice in the Millennial reign.

The referenced scripture from Numbers reveals those who murmur against God will fall/die in the wilderness:

"And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the Lord, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me. (Numbers 14:26-29)


Yes, as you say, we are justified by the blood of Jesus. The question is, How is the blood applied? Consider what Paul revealed: "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:..." Rom. 6:3-6. Also, take note of the scripture you referenced. Hebrew 10:14 reveals there is a process in which we are being made holy in association with the sacrifice of Jesus. "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." And, "Without holiness no man shall see the Lord." (Heb. 12:14)

The list of scriptures you reference must be taken in context to gain an accurate understanding.

 

[Valletta]

I do not accept, as some, that receiving the Holy Spirit takes place during water baptism. Scripture reveals water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Spirit are both required regardless of sequence. (John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

I've addressed the fact that Infant baptism is not scriptural. Infants and young children do not have the mental capacity to make the choice whether or not to accept Jesus and obey His teachings. The biblical record reveals there is an age of accountability. (Numbers 14:26-29) As such, those who die prior to reaching that point are not destined for hell. I

Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

We are indeed saved through the sacrament of Baptism as the Bible states, water is the sign of the sacrament. Baptism replaced circumcision.
As with circumcision, the faith of the parents is enough for the infant to be baptized.

 

[Doug Brents]

As with circumcision, the faith of the parents is enough for the infant to be baptized.

Where in Scripture (book, chapter, and verse) does it say that the faith of the parents is enough for the infant? On the contrary, it says that each individual must have their own faith, and their own confidence in Christ Jesus for baptism to have any effect.

 

[Aaron112]

Obedience brings about the NT rebirth it is not the fruit of it.

For one often missed perspective: do you (pl/readers) happen or by providence remember

the time (at least one) when YHVH'S people were obedient, that is they did what YHVH said to do, and then they were punished ? I do not remember if it is unique in Scripture or if it happened more than once, but it is in harmony with all YHVH's Word; no conflict; no contradiction.

 

[Aaron112]

The biblical record reveals there is an age of accountability. (Numbers 14:26-29) As such, those who die prior to reaching that point are not destined for hell. It is only a personal opinion, but I believe it is possible that they will be given the opportunity to make a choice in the Millennial reign.

I'm pretty certain all things considered that this idea is fully man's tradition added to help people feel better and perhaps other historical nefarious purposes at different points in time and place.

There is no hope, no indication of hope, for anyone after they pass if they are not already "born again" by the Will of the Father, not of man, nor of the flesh,

John 1:13

Amplified Bible

​

13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father],

but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

 

[Wansvic]

Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

We are indeed saved through the sacrament of Baptism as the Bible states, water is the sign of the sacrament. Baptism replaced circumcision.
As with circumcision, the faith of the parents is enough for the infant to be baptized.

I agree there's a parallel between circumcision and water baptism. Those in the OT maintained covenant with God through circumcision. Those who refused to let themselves be circumcised were cut off. (Gen. 17) And, those in the NT maintain covenant with God through obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Spirit in association with Jesus’ sacrifice. Those who refuse to allow themselves to be baptized in water and Spirit are guilty of breaking covenant with God. Jesus said unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot see or enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5) Not only do believers have to be born of water, be "circumcised" in a sense, they must receive the Holy Spirit as well.

In addition, note the difference in Old and New Testament instructions. In the OT, adults were commanded to circumcise their children and submit to it themselves. The NT instruction is for adults to allow themselves to be baptized in water for remission of their sin. There is no mention of needing to water baptize their children. Adults are however commanded to instruct their children in the ways of the Lord and when they become of age they will not ignore what they have been taught.

Lastly, numerous scriptures reveal that receiving the Holy Spirit does not automatically occur during water baptism. (Acts 2:4, 33, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

For one often missed perspective: do you (pl/readers) happen or by providence remember

the time (at least one) when YHVH'S people were obedient, that is they did what YHVH said to do, and then they were punished ? I do not remember if it is unique in Scripture or if it happened more than once, but it is in harmony with all YHVH's Word; no conflict; no contradiction.

Sorry. I'm finding it difficult to grasp the meaning of your post. I would appreciate it if you would explain the point you are attempting to make.