what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

[LoAmmi]

why do you say that?

Because it is true. Nobody deserves that.

 

[dfw69]

No. Nobody should be tortured forever. Not even Hitler.

i disagree...if someone killed someone an tbere is a hell....and that person sent that persob he killed to hell...he should recieve no mercy

david and paul killed....but recieved mercy...we dont know why?...perhaps the ones killed were righteous ....so not sent to hell.....and they may have forgiven and god forgave....uriah forgave david.....but if one sends one to hell....i dont believe there is mercy for that ...that is if there is a hell....which i believe there is....

 

[LoAmmi]

i disagree...if someone killed someone an tbere is a hell....and that person sent that persob he killed to hell...he should recieve no mercy

david and paul killed....but recieved mercy...we dont know why?...perhaps the ones killed were righteous ....so not sent to hell.....and they may have forgiven and god forgave....uriah forgave david.....but if one sends one to hell....i dont believe there is mercy for that ...that is if there is a hell....which i believe there is....

If there is no Hell, as I believe, nobody can be sent there by being murdered. It is a horrible concept and one I will not believe.

I will also refuse to worship any being that would send people to such a fate. That being deserves none of my attention.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

i disagree...if someone killed someone an tbere is a hell....and that person sent that persob he killed to hell...he should recieve no mercy

david and paul killed....but recieved mercy...we dont know why?...perhaps the ones killed were righteous ....so not sent to hell.....and they may have forgiven and god forgave....uriah forgave david.....but if one sends one to hell....i dont believe there is mercy for that ...that is if there is a hell....which i believe there is....

Ok you say these things and then say you don't know why? Unless you can explain a teaching to a child forget if my friend, as your default position will be "well we don't now why" and neither will the child, thus handing on gobbleydegook again and again. Your POV if fine just keep it to yourSELF.

 

[dfw69]

If there is no Hell, as I believe, nobody can be sent there by being murdered. It is a horrible concept and one I will not believe.

I will also refuse to worship any being that would send people to such a fate. That being deserves none of my attention.

if you found out that hashem created hell beyond doubt....say hashem showed you hell....you would not obey hashem?

 

[LoAmmi]

if you found out that hashem created hell beyond doubt....say hashem showed you hell....you would not obey hashem?

No. He would lose my worship and my allegiance. It is preferable to be in Hell away from such a being than with it.

 

[dfw69]

Ok you say these things and then say you don't know why? Unless you can explain a teaching to a child forget if my friend, as your default position will be "well we don't now why" and neither will the child, thus handing on gobbleydegook again and again. Your POV if fine just keep it to yourSELF.

what are you saying....you dont understand me....
All im saying is if a man kill a man and that man is sent to hell the man commiting the murder should not be given mercy....this is my judgement on the matter....its not fair to the one cast off....not given a chance to hear and repent

 

[dfw69]

No. He would lose my worship and my allegiance. It is preferable to be in Hell away from such a being than with it.

i read somewhere.....that when jesus returns.....and when god comes down to live with men....the new world generations will go to the holes and see the wicked who were resserected and cast into the lake of fire ....the fear of hashem will be upon all men....

i can see how hell offends men.....i had a hard time with it when i was young ....but i know the wicked end there...and the righteous end up with the father

 

[LoAmmi]

i read somewhere.....that when jesus returns.....and when god comes down to live with men....the new world generations will go to the holes and see the wicked who were resserected and cast into the lake of fire ....the fear of hashem will be upon all men....

i can see how hell offends men.....i had a hard time with it when i was young ....but i know the wicked end there...and the righteous end up with the father

Why not redeem them instead?

 

[dfw69]

Why not redeem them instead?

god is a just god....vengence is mine says the lord....he will recompence......we have the righteous judge who will judge all men righteously....and god will avenge his people who have been wronged

 

[LoAmmi]

god is a just god....vengence is mine says the lord....he will recompence......we have the righteous judge who will judge all men righteously....and god will avenge his people who have been wronged

A place of purification would work just as well then. They would come out clean, and the debt would be settled. Instead, we have people tortured forever. Forever in pain, forever in agony.

I consider any being that does that to be pure evil.

 

[dfw69]

A place of purification would work just as well then. They would come out clean, and the debt would be settled. Instead, we have people tortured forever. Forever in pain, forever in agony.

I consider any being that does that to be pure evil.

was god evil when he judge egypt sodom gomorrah israel?

 

[LoAmmi]

was god evil when he judge egypt sodom gomorrah israel?

He did not judge them to eternal torture.

 

[dfw69]

He did not judge them to eternal torture.

I understand your stance on the subject of hell......well thanks again for listening and sharing....peace...

 

[Eyes wide Open]

what are you saying....you dont understand me....
All im saying is if a man kill a man and that man is sent to hell the man commiting the murder should not be given mercy....this is my judgement on the matter....its not fair to the one cast off....not given a chance to hear and repent

No you don't understand me, if a man kills another he has created hell, both within himself and as an outward projection. This hell he has created is a seperation from God. Then the only way we can then stop that hell is to forgive the man (but you stand in judgement, without the knowledge of their subjective experience ) That doesn't mean he doesn't get removed from society if they are still a danger to the public. But if within that removed place they can be shown love and support (something that they were probably have never been shown before) then they can start to see the error of their ways and build connection. What you don't see is that your very 'wanting them to go to hell' is you creating hell within yourself, as seperation from God, I suspect the only problem is your inability to grasp the concept. Then when you die that aspect of what you have created will still be present (if we do indeed survive after death) so it matters not that you declare yourself a Christian, but only that you followed the life of Christ. Love, Compassion, Forgiveness. Look to the saints/sages/mystics as other living examples and what they stood for.

 

[LoAmmi]

I understand your stance on the subject of hell......well thanks again for listening and sharing....peace...

Good. In the Tanakh, people are sentenced to death. There is a threat of death for actions. But never once a threat of eternal torture. Not one instance I am aware of.

 

[ViaCrucis]

god is a just god....vengence is mine says the lord....he will recompence......we have the righteous judge who will judge all men righteously....and god will avenge his people who have been wronged

This is why vengeance is God's, not ours. God's Judgment will be His alone to make and we dare not reduce that Judgment to that of a human being--vindictive, violent, punitive. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts; His are infinitely higher than ours. And we do well to remember this.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[traditionalist]

If there is no Hell, as I believe, nobody can be sent there by being murdered. It is a horrible concept and one I will not believe.

I will also refuse to worship any being that would send people to such a fate. That being deserves none of my attention.

I find this really interesting, what is your view on Daniel 12:1-9

and

Isaiah 66:22-24?


oh and Psalm 55:15?

 

[LoAmmi]

I find this really interesting, what is your view on Daniel 12:1-9

I am going to assume that verse 2 is the big one for you:
2. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.

First, I see no idea of eternal torture in the word disgrace or abhorrence. I see a contrast between those that were good and those that were wicked. In my view, the wicked will feel guilt and shame for the way they behaved in life.

and

Isaiah 66:22-24?

24. "And they shall go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh."

I guess the first question I would have is why are these described as corpses. As we know, corpses are dead bodies. They are devoid of whatever it is that makes us alive. This is not describing people, this is describing dead bodies. Seems like these people will not be raised back up from the grave.

oh and Psalm 55:15?

16. May He incite Death upon them; may they descend to the grave alive, for there are evils in their dwelling, in their midst.

A wish for his enemies to be buried alive it seems. Not exactly the nicest wish.

Still, I see no evidence for people being tortured forever.


I hope this is not seen as promoting, but I would like to share a bit about a Jewish view of "Hell":
Gehinnom: A Jewish Hell

Only truly righteous souls ascend directly to Gan Eden, say the sages. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom.
The name is taken from a valley (Gei Hinnom) just south of Jerusalem, once used for child sacrifice by the pagan nations of Canaan (II Kings 23:10). Some view Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone. Others imagine it less harshly, as a place where one reviews the actions of his/her life and repents for past misdeeds.
The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).
Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).


I do not believe it is a place of torture, but rather a place of learning and repentance. I also am not sure about the last part with the utterly wicked. I like to believe that everybody can be redeemed when given the truth. It may just be a harsher afterlife for those that were truly wicked, knowing what they have done.

 

[traditionalist]

I am going to assume that verse 2 is the big one for you:
2. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.

First, I see no idea of eternal torture in the word disgrace or abhorrence. I see a contrast between those that were good and those that were wicked. In my view, the wicked will feel guilt and shame for the way they behaved in life.
24. "And they shall go out and see the corpses of the people who rebelled against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring for all flesh."

I guess the first question I would have is why are these described as corpses. As we know, corpses are dead bodies. They are devoid of whatever it is that makes us alive. This is not describing people, this is describing dead bodies. Seems like these people will not be raised back up from the grave.
16. May He incite Death upon them; may they descend to the grave alive, for there are evils in their dwelling, in their midst.

A wish for his enemies to be buried alive it seems. Not exactly the nicest wish.

Still, I see no evidence for people being tortured forever.


I hope this is not seen as promoting, but I would like to share a bit about a Jewish view of "Hell":
Gehinnom: A Jewish Hell

Only truly righteous souls ascend directly to Gan Eden, say the sages. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom.
The name is taken from a valley (Gei Hinnom) just south of Jerusalem, once used for child sacrifice by the pagan nations of Canaan (II Kings 23:10). Some view Gehinnom as a place of torture and punishment, fire and brimstone. Others imagine it less harshly, as a place where one reviews the actions of his/her life and repents for past misdeeds.
The soul's sentence in Gehinnom is usually limited to a twelve-month period of purgation before it takes its place in Olam Ha-Ba (Mishnah Eduyot 2:9, Shabbat 33a). This twelve-month limit is reflected in the yearlong mourning cycle and the recitation of the Kaddish (the memorial prayer for the dead).
Only the utterly wicked do not ascend to Gan Eden at the end of this year. Sources differ on what happens to these souls at the end of their initial time of purgation. Some say that the wicked are utterly destroyed and cease to exist, while others believe in eternal damnation (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Law of Repentance, 3:5-6).


I do not believe it is a place of torture, but rather a place of learning and repentance. I also am not sure about the last part with the utterly wicked. I like to believe that everybody can be redeemed when given the truth. It may just be a harsher afterlife for those that were truly wicked, knowing what they have done.

Thanks, thats given me heaps to think on : )