what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

[LoAmmi]

no....i am not against science or technology ....its just that when it comes to what god says and science says....i choose what god says...thats pretty much it....if God says he holds the worlds in place....thats enough for me....

The Tanakh states that the world sits on pillars. Do you believe that?

 

[ViaCrucis]

another good reason for God is .....we need his help from this wicked world.....

with all the science in medicine....where is the cure for cancer?

Cancer: The Forbidden Cures - YouTube

"Give doctors the honor they deserve, for the Lord gave them their work to do. Their skill came from the Most High, and kings reward them for it. Their knowledge gives them a position of importance, and powerful people hold them in high regard. The Lord created medicines from the earth, and a sensible person will not hesitate to use them. Didn't a tree once make bitter water fit to drink, so that the Lord's power might be known? He gave medical knowledge to human beings, so that we would praise him for the miracles he performs. The druggist mixes these medicines, and the doctor will use them to cure diseases and ease pain. There is no end to the activities of the Lord, who gives health to the people of the world." - Wisdom of Sirach 38:1-8

Even if you don't consider this Scripture proper, it represents the right view we as people of faith should have in regard to medicine, physicians and medical science.

It's not God vs medical science. It's viewing medical science as a gift from above, the doctor's skill and hard work is a blessing, the desire to ease suffering and cure sickness and tend to the ill is the will of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dfw69]

To Judaism? I don't. But Judaism isn't exactly the status quo in today's world, nor are Jews exactly the majority or the ones who maintain the power.

I view Christianity as morally and socially subversive in that I think if one looks at the things Jesus says, or even the things Paul and the other writers of the New Testament said one sees a kind of moral, political and social inversive.

Morality, typically, is a top-down social system, what is fundamentally good in a moral system in society is that which perpetuates the system. To rock the moral fabric is to shake the society at its foundation. When Christians were arrested and sent before the court, the charges were always about how Christians were moral and social subversives. Seen as being a threat to Rome's social mores and traditional values. Christians were charged with atheism, with being enemies of the human race, with attacking traditional family values, and generally upsetting the basic social order of the Empire.

Even in Christian dominant societies, Christianity has still--when it is the voice of the least and the lesser--spoken truth to power. The language of Dr. Martin Luther King was the language of the New Testament, the language of Bonhoeffer and the Confessing Church again was the language of the Gospel (especially the Sermon on the Mount). When kings and emperors oppressed, it was usually the voice of the religious who spoke to them against their tyranny. The tradition of the role of the Holy Fool in Russia and the rest of the Orthodox world, for example. The examples of lone Christians standing firm against emperors (again, even Christian emperors) such as when St. Ambrose rebuked Theodosius and refused him entry to the church and ordered the emperor to repent in ash and sackcloth in imitation of King David after the emperor massacred thousands in Thessaloniki.

Christianity has certainly been appropriated by the powerful, as all religion has been at one time or another; but it has also given voice to the powerless, and speaking out and subverting the very foundations of the social order.

As such, I don't very much see Christianity as particularly useful for morality or society--not if taken seriously. If taken seriously Christianity should be a threat to our standards of morality and the status quo of society.

-CryptoLutheran

im not sure what this means....but if your saying that christianity has no morals influence or impact society in a positive way....thats just not true....

 

[dfw69]

The Tanakh states that the world sits on pillars. Do you believe that?

where?

 

[dfw69]

"Give doctors the honor they deserve, for the Lord gave them their work to do. Their skill came from the Most High, and kings reward them for it. Their knowledge gives them a position of importance, and powerful people hold them in high regard. The Lord created medicines from the earth, and a sensible person will not hesitate to use them. Didn't a tree once make bitter water fit to drink, so that the Lord's power might be known? He gave medical knowledge to human beings, so that we would praise him for the miracles he performs. The druggist mixes these medicines, and the doctor will use them to cure diseases and ease pain. There is no end to the activities of the Lord, who gives health to the people of the world." - Wisdom of Sirach 38:1-8

Even if you don't consider this Scripture proper, it represents the right view we as people of faith should have in regard to medicine, physicians and medical science.

It's not God vs medical science. It's viewing medical science as a gift from above, the doctor's skill and hard work is a blessing, the desire to ease suffering and cure sickness and tend to the ill is the will of God.

-CryptoLutheran

i am not against doctors or medical science....what the video on youtube i posted suggest is that there are cures for cancer....but money or gain is the reason these cures are not public....there is much profit to gain for cancer treatments such as radiology, surgery and prescribe drugs....

 

[LoAmmi]

1 Samuel 2
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, He lifteth up the needy from the dunghill, To make them sit with princes, And inherit the throne of glory: For the pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, And he hath set the world upon them.

 

[dfw69]

1 Samuel 2
8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, He lifteth up the needy from the dunghill, To make them sit with princes, And inherit the throne of glory: For the pillars of the earth are Jehovah's, And he hath set the world upon them.

its a symbolic meaning of the poor and needy who will be as pillars of the earth....and the world is set upon those Hashem will lift up as pillars.....

a better understanding is in the new testament ...when god will exalt many who are low...and humble the proud....in the days when Jesus establish his kingdom...rewards are given to his people who believe

 

[dfw69]

loammi...do you believe in an eye for an eye?

 

[LoAmmi]

its a symbolic meaning of the poor and needy who will be as pillars of the earth....and the world is set upon those Hashem will lift up as pillars.....

a better understanding is in the new testament ...when god will exalt many who are low...and humble the proud....in the days when Jesus establish his kingdom...rewards are given to his people who believe

Ah, so it is symbolic? There are things that are not literal but are symbolic?

So, where are you pulling your idea that HaShem holds the world where it is? Why can that not be a metaphor?

 

[LoAmmi]

loammi...do you believe in an eye for an eye?

Yes, as it is understood in Judaism.

 

[dfw69]

Ah, so it is symbolic? There are things that are not literal but are symbolic?

So, where are you pulling your idea that HaShem holds the world where it is? Why can that not be a metaphor?

not evrything is a metaphor....one has to dissern what is ...and what is not....

 

[ViaCrucis]

im not sure what this means....but if your saying that christianity has no morals influence or impact society in a positive way....thats just not true....

I'm saying that if we take the Gospel seriously then Christianity doesn't mean "being moral", but being merciful, being just, being kind, being good no matter the personal cost. It means not lording over others, but serving every man, woman and child--including our enemies. It means being servant of all and master of none.

Moralism typically results in the vilification of others. The defenders of "traditional morality" usually have no sincere interest in what is good and right, but in maintaining the status quo. When Jesus rebukes people, He rebukes the self-righteous and the religious hypocrite; calling them white-washed tombs filled with dead men's bones. When Jesus tells us what true piety is He tells us about the hated tax-collector who dare not turn his eyes toward heaven, but rather beats his breast, eyes turned down and prays, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."

Jesus associates with the lowly and the rejected. "The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they called Him a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners." And He also says "For I tell you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

Jesus doesn't particularly seem all that interested in being "moral" or in having His followers be "moral"; rather Jesus is interested in righteousness, in true fidelity to God; and He presents for His followers what it means to be righteous and obedient to God, by taking up Cross and like a lamb before the slaughter willingly offers Himself to death, to be associated with criminals, sinners and slaves. In this Jesus reveals to us where God is in every society.

God is at the table of prostitutes, He is in the ones who are hated. God is with the sick and the despised. God is found in the child dying of AIDS. In every victim of hate, in every person who was abused, in every man, woman and child who ever looked up into heaven, frustrated, in tears, alone and lost in despair--that is where God is found. Not in the high and the noble, not in the magisterial or lofty. And there should also be His people, counted among the scum of the earth, living for and loving the unwanted.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[dfw69]

I'm saying that if we take the Gospel seriously then Christianity doesn't mean "being moral", but being merciful, being just, being kind, being good no matter the personal cost. It means not lording over others, but serving every man, woman and child--including our enemies. It means being servant of all and master of none.

Moralism typically results in the vilification of others. The defenders of "traditional morality" usually have no sincere interest in what is good and right, but in maintaining the status quo. When Jesus rebukes people, He rebukes the self-righteous and the religious hypocrite; calling them white-washed tombs filled with dead men's bones. When Jesus tells us what true piety is He tells us about the hated tax-collector who dare not turn his eyes toward heaven, but rather beats his breast, eyes turned down and prays, "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."

Jesus associates with the lowly and the rejected. "The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they called Him a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners." And He also says "For I tell you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

Jesus doesn't particularly seem all that interested in being "moral" or in having His followers be "moral"; rather Jesus is interested in righteousness, in true fidelity to God; and He presents for His followers what it means to be righteous and obedient to God, by taking up Cross and like a lamb before the slaughter willingly offers Himself to death, to be associated with criminals, sinners and slaves. In this Jesus reveals to us where God is in every society.

God is at the table of prostitutes, He is in the ones who are hated. God is with the sick and the despised. God is found in the child dying of AIDS. In every victim of hate, in every person who was abused, in every man, woman and child who ever looked up into heaven, frustrated, in tears, alone and lost in despair--that is where God is found. Not in the high and the noble, not in the magisterial or lofty. And there should also be His people, counted among the scum of the earth, living for and loving the unwanted.

-CryptoLutheran

moral is love...if one loves his nieghbors, brothers .....he will not seek to break the law....the law is written in thier hearts...knowing good and evil....thus killing is out...adultery is out ....worshiping idols...we cant do that....christianity does not seek to break the 10 commandments?...but it does have mercy for no one is perfect all have sin and can fall at any time....thus the prayer to leadus not into temptation....and deliver us from evil....

what is moral in your eyes?.....a perfect man who obeys the whole law perfectly?....who can?

 

[ViaCrucis]

moral is love...if one loves his nieghbors, brothers .....he will not seek to break the law....the law is written in thier hearts...knowing good and evil....thus killing is out...adultery is out ....worshiping idols...we cant do that....christianity does not seek to break the 10 commandments?...but it does have mercy for no one is perfect all have sin and can fall at any time....thus the prayer to leadus not into temptation....and deliver us from evil....

what is moral in your eyes?.....a perfect man who obeys the whole law perfectly?....who can?

I'm not talking about "morality" in the standard sense, i.e. what is truly and/or objectively good and right; but rather more about "moralism", that which is generally viewed as maintaining good social order. This kind of social morality is the sort of morality that looks at people and measures their worth insofar as they conform and contribute to the "good" of that social order.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoAmmi]

loammi...do you believe in an eye for an eye?

I saw you asked this and thought you may have missed my answer since it was on the bottom of hte previous page:

Yes, but as Judaism understands the concept.

 

[dfw69]

I'm not talking about "morality" in the standard sense, i.e. what is truly and/or objectively good and right; but rather more about "moralism", that which is generally viewed as maintaining good social order. This kind of social morality is the sort of morality that looks at people and measures their worth insofar as they conform and contribute to the "good" of that social order.

-CryptoLutheran

huh?!?....there is a comunication breakdown....im lost....so i will just say sorry i question you...and walk away peacefully....peace...

 

[dfw69]

I saw you asked this and thought you may have missed my answer since it was on the bottom of hte previous page:

Yes, but as Judaism understands the concept.

how does judaism see it?

 

[LoAmmi]

how does judaism see it?

A better rendering for the Jewish understanding would be "Let the punishment fit the crime".

Someone who commits a murder their punishment should be greater than one that steals.

 

[dfw69]

A better rendering for the Jewish understanding would be "Let the punishment fit the crime".

Someone who commits a murder their punishment should be greater than one that steals.[/quote

do you believe God is the same way?.....should he not judge in the same manner and be just in doing so?

 

[LoAmmi]

do you believe God is the same way?.....should he not judge in the same manner and be just in doing so?

I certainly believe that He would take the view that murder is certainly worse than theft.