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What Jesus is Not!

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Ok, so you can say that Jesus was simply a messenger, and not God Himself, correct? Jesus was not "Allah," correct?

    If you are honest, which I think you are, you will admit that Islam teaches that.

    So, we go back to whether Jesus is God, as He said, or simply a messenger. If He is just a messenger, then you have to admit that He "lied" when He claimed to be God.

    Can you admit that?
     
  2. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    souljah,

    It's not eather black or white as you are trying to put it.

    The real issue my brother is that you are calling contradictions misunderstandings, and this is as i believe unacceptable to both you and me. That is a fact i think.

    And about Christ, he was only God's messenger, he only said what God inspired him to say, nothing more, nothing less, but people then added words that he never said to the real words. It's that simple.

    This should put some light on this issue http://www.islam.org/audio/ra622_4.ram

    Just hear to the last.
     
  3. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

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    Don't change the subject please.

    Islam teaches that Jesus is just a prophet, meanwhile, Jesus said He is God.

    So, you now say, in order to escape this logical contradiction, that Jesus never said what is quoted to Him in the Bible. That people writing the Bible, lied.

    If so, how can you trust anything that was said in the Bible, or the Koran, which used the Bible itself.
     
  4. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    You said it your self. Quoted to him.

    The bible in your hand now is not the true scripture of Jesus Christ which i and every muslim believe in, and let me say that Muhammad was arabic, the Qur'an is arabic, people have to read it in arabic when they pray, God promissed to protect it and it remaind this way for the last 1400+ years, and last but not least, THERE IS ONLY ONE QURAN WHERE EVER YOU GO.

    The bible on the other hand is changing as time pases because people just keep removing and then adding verses in it again and tell you to believe blindfully, this is by the way why there are 24+ bibles, this is surely the work of men and not the Almighty. period.

    Again i ask you to take a look at the debate hear it to the last.
     
  5. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

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    If you think God protects the Koran, there is no reason to think that God doesn't protect the Bible. The Bible, or the Catholic Bible, is unchanged for 1700 years, longer than the Koran is unchanged.

    And you are not being totally accurate.  Nobody added anything to that Bible that was put together in 300 A.D. or so.  People have removed sections, but never added. 

    If I remove part of your Koran and call it the Koran, does that mean the original is invalid?
     
  6. SimpleChristian

    SimpleChristian Member

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    zico....guess what the holes you are trying to shoot in the Bible apply to the Koran because (drumroll please) I have seen the Koran in English!
     
  7. stillsmallvoice

    stillsmallvoice The Narn rule!

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    Zico,

    Thank you for your post (#17); we're cool.

    Be well!

    ssv
     
  8. sbbqb7n16

    sbbqb7n16 Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

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    Hold on I caught a question here..... you said that Allah only spoke to Moses? Correct? Or at least that Islam teaches that.....

    How come you also posted that "Allah said to Jesus" (paraphrased)? And did Allah not speak to Muhammed? And what about the other prophets?I'm confused....
     
  9. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    s0uljah,,, remove or add, it's the same. You can't edit the word of God,,, are you more holly than him ?

    SimpleChristian,,, WOOOOOOW!, well guess what. you still have to recite in arabic when you pray. You are mixing between a version and a translation of the meanings :) .

    stillsmallvoice,, thanks bro. we're cool :) .

    sbbqb7n16,,, God spoke to all prophets thrugh Gabriel, but spoke to Moses directly. Each one of the messengers had his uniqeness, this was Moses's.

    7:143. When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

    Qur'an 7 Al-A'raf (The Heights)
     
  10. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "THERE IS ONLY ONE QURAN WHERE EVER YOU GO. "

    Have you ever looked at the history of this book? they guy would go into spazums and foam at the mouth. Oh, hold on, I'm going out by myself and not letting anyone see the angel giving me the stuff. Hey, I think muhammad and Joe smith have a lot in common. They were both decievers in that aspect. They have something called an unfalsifiable claim. Where Christ made it quite clear that everyone knew what he was talking about and that was evidenced through miricles and raising himself from the dead.
     
  12. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    WOW!!!! cool,, i didn't know that Muhammad was this sick  :sick:

     

    Maybe you shouldn't say something like this about a man you know nothing about. But hey,,, you're the moderator here, you can say what ever you want  ;)

     

    In the meantime, you should stick to answering islam and carm.org, both sites provide excellent sources on islam.
     
  13. Gunny

    Gunny Remnant Supporter

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    Yep, all false prophets have one thing in common, they are a tool of Satan, the father of lies and they like being a little demi-god, power tripping.


    I care less about false religions, false prophets, false gods and websites that attempt to make that which is a tool of the devil somehow harmless.

    God's Word states Satan disguises himself as an angel of light-deception like nobody's business.

    GySgt James
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "Maybe you shouldn't say something like this about a man you know nothing about. But hey,,, you're the moderator here, you can say what ever you want "

    *sigh* Well for 1. I know a lot about him since I have studied this relgion speicfically for the last few years now. 2. I just within the past 2 or 3 months discovered carm.org thanks. 3. My views do not clash with my mod responsiblities nor do i abuse them. If you would like you can PM me with specific instances where you think I have "abused" my power and we can go from there. If not then you should, if you're honest, take back that unfounded remark. Thanks.

    Zico, I've read the Koran (westernized spelling) and a commentary on it. I was meshing through another commentary but stopped due to school work and another book that was higher on my list that I finally got. So thanks. :)

    http://answering-islam.org.uk/

    Another great cite.
     
  15. Lanakila

    Lanakila Not responsible for the changes here.

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    If this thread is about Mohamed now, I have some questions for our Muslim visitors.

    1. First, Mohamed received his revelation (the Koran) from the angel Gabriel, correct?

    2. Could the angel have been an imposter?

    3. If the angel could not have been an imposter, please explain why and how.

    4. If by chance this wasn't truly an angel of God, but an imposter, who could it have been?

     
     
  16. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    LouisBooth, sorry we can't agree on any issue here.

    Lanakila, this is from the book ( What did Jesus really say ? ) http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html

    6.11: God did not kill Muhammad (pbuh) for speaking in His name


    In Deuteronomy 18:20 we read

    "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."


    Muhammad (pbuh) spoke not just a single word, but dictated a whole book in God's name. For twenty three years he spoke exclusively in the name of God Almighty. He was given one hundred and fourteen chapters, all of which were, and are to this day, recited day after day in God's name. Chapters in the Qur'an begin with the words "In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful." Yet he did not die, but lived to fulfill his message completely. He himself even narrated in the name of God a similar verse in the Qur'an:


    "And if he (Muhammad) had invented false sayings in Our (God's) name, We would have taken him by the right, then We would have severed from him his aorta, and there is none among you who could have held Us off from him"

    The noble Qur'an, al-Haaqah(69):46


    (Remember that the plural form of this verse is the Arabic plural of respect, not the Christian plural of "Trinity," as seen in chapter 14). If the claims of some are true: That Muhammad (pbuh) was an impostor, then did God go to sleep for twenty three years? Of course not! He knew full well what Muhammad (pbuh) was claiming. If he was not telling the truth, why did God not kill him? Why did he allow him to perpetrate a lie that would span fourteen centuries, and eventually come to cover the globe?
     
  17. Lanakila

    Lanakila Not responsible for the changes here.

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    So, you are saying because God has allowed Islam to exist, that alone makes it correct? The argument from silence is a poor argument. Satan being the prince and power of the air, and being alive and well on planet earth is a reason for false religions to exist. Many false religions have existed for very long periods of time. Also, we don't know what happened to Mohamed when he died, do we. We cannot say for sure that he is in heaven, because we aren't there or in the other place to say one way or another. So, we don't know that God approves of the religion (or started it) through that angel, accept from the words of a man now dead. The Apostle Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8,9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
    9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Islam is it teaching different things about Christ than Paul taught? Obviously, yes it is.

    Jesus did rise from the dead proving his deity, and that every word He said was true. The resurrection of Christ,such is--as one author has described it--"plowed through the annals of history". Besides the Gospel narratives themselves which--even if one doesn't think they are divinely inspired--are unequivocably, established as viable historical sources, the independent secular verification of such is unprecidented. I will list "some" extra-Biblical evidence for Christ:
    Thallus works haven't survived but early church fathers quoted him. For example Julius Africanus in AD 221 states that in Thallus 3rd book he describes the darkness upon the earth at the time of the crucifixion.

    Chronicles of Phelegon written AD 140 also, mentions the darkness at the time of the crucifixion as well.

    Josephus who was born just a few years after Jesus crucifixion and resurrection mentions Jesus in 3 passages of his Antiquities of the Jews AD 93. He describes him as the brother of James, the one whom is called Christ.

    Some of the direct evidence as described in Bakers Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics are:
    Jesus appearing to Mary Magdalene John 20:10-18
    Mary/women Matt 28:1-10
    Peter 1 Cor 15:5
    Two disciples Luke 24:13-35
    500 brethren 1 Cor 15:6 and many other scriptures.
    When compared to evidence for other ancient events the evidence is quite literally overwhelming. In the first 11 appearances he appeared to more than 500 people in a 40 day period of time. Acts 1:3 Every time he was seen and most likely heard from. He was touched at least 2 of the 4 times he offered himself to be touched. 4 times the empty tomb is described and 2 times the empty grave clothes. The total evidence is that Jesus arose and lived among the disciples in the same physical tangible body, he had before his crucifixion.

    Indirect evidence:
    The immediate transformation of the disciples from fearfull to boldly witnessing the resurrection. The teaching of the Apostles was about this resurrection of Jesus Christ. The reaction of those (jews) who reject Jesus. The could not produce a body and they did not even organize a search for it, instead they bribed the soldiers guarding the tomb. Further proof is the existance of the early church. The early Christians were Jews, and did not even have time to establish themselves before the persecutions came. The persecutions strengthened their beliefs. Christ alone can account for the sect of Jews that were called "the Way".

    Geisler states: " Evidence for the resurrection of Christ is compelling. There are more documents, more eyewitnesses, and more corrborative evidence than for any other historical event of ancient history. The secondar, supplementary evidence is convincing; when combined with the direct evidence, it presents a towering case for the physical resurrection of Christ. In legal terminology it is "beyond all reasonable doubt". (Geisler 656)

    The material in this post is mostly gathered from Norman Geisler's "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics" Baker Books, Grand Rapids MI: 2000.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Whats really kind of puzzling is that they believe that 1. Christ was not crustifed because no prophet can die in such a horrible way and 2. that Christ was sinless , ie perfect, but muhammad was not....strange huh?
     
  19. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Do you really think that Satan will really call people to worship the Lord of Adam, Noah, Job, Jonah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and the ones before them?. Don't you know that he and his children and their followers fear even the mention of the apostles names?.

    And regarding dead people, are Moses or Abraham still alive?. You do believe in them. Don't you.

    And about his religion, you are mixing things up here, Muhammad did not call to worship another diety like Buddah or what ever then said nothing about the prophets before him, he spoke in the name of THE LORD OF JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF VERGIN MARY AND MOSES, so you see that God's law of punishment on his life time does imply to him if he did lie in God's name.

    And again, is this because Muhammad told us that the myth of the trinity is wrong and that God the Almighty, The Omnipotent, The Eternal, does not accept this for his majesty?. Don't you think that when God will's something he only say's BE and it is done as we are tout as muslims ( submitters ) .

    Don't you really, i mean really think that Jews should have accepted Jesus Christ when he came to them with clear signes from their lord?. surely there was something wrong or God would not send Christ.
    But why are they still Jews?.

    Isn't this the same matter here ?.

    Yes it is, this is human nature. 2.168 O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in the earth, and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you.

    2.169 He enjoineth upon you only the evil and the foul, and that ye should tell concerning Allah that which ye know not.

    2.170 And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance ?

    Surah 2



    3.6 "Say: 'O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah(God); that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords other than Allah.' But if they turn away, say: 'Bear you witness that we have surrendered unto Allah (We are Muslims).

    Surah 3


    In the next two posts i'll be quoting from this website http://www.thetruereligion.org
     
  20. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Twelve Proofs that Muhammad is a True Prophet taken from http://www.thetruereligion.org


    1. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad with the Koran that we now have between our hands. This Koran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to belie him regarding anything that he said.

    2. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also foretold of everything that would occur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad foretold, as if he was reading the future from an open book.

    3. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also brought an Arabic Koran that is the peak of eloquence and clarity. The Koran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Koran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Koran.

    Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty, and splendor of this Glorious Koran.

    4. The life history of this Noble Prophet was a perfect example of being upright, merciful, compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he was ever mindful and fearful of Allah.

    5. Allah instilled great love for Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him. This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him.

    Till today, those who believe in Muhammad honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him, even if but once.

    6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad, who is the most influential human in history.

    Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon remembering Muhammad, the believers in him will greet him and ask Allah to bless him. They do such with full hearts and true love for him.

    7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those who believe in him.

    Those who believe in Muhammad, sleep in the manner he slept; purify themselves (through ablution and ritual washing) in the manner he purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.

    Indeed in all aspects of their lives, the believers in Muhammad adhere to the teachings he spread among them and the path that he traveled upon during his life.

    During every generation, from his day till our time, the believers in this Noble Prophet have fully adhered to his teachings. With some, this has reached the degree that they desire to follow and adhere to the Prophet's way in his personal matters regarding which Allah has not sought of them to adhere to in worship. For example, some will only eat those specific foods or only wear those specific garments that the Messenger liked.

    Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad repeat those praises of Allah, special prayers, and invocations that he would say during each of his actions during day and night, like: what he would say when he greeted people, upon entering and leaving the house, entering and leaving the mosque, entering and leaving the bathroom, going to sleep and awaking from sleep, observing the new crescent, observing the new fruit on trees, eating, drinking, dressing, riding, traveling and returning from travel, etc.

    Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad fully perform-even to the minute detail-every act of worship-like prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage-as this Noble Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) taught and as he himself performed.

    All of this allows those who believe in him, to live their lives in all aspects with this Noble Messenger as their example, as if he was standing before them, for them to follow in all their doings.

    8. There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received such love, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet.

    9. Since his day, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet has been followed by individuals from all races, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad out of compulsion or coercion or because they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.

    Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (may Allah's blessings peace be upon him), chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. Most people who have followed this Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) have done so not to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of following this Prophet. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion.

    My brethren! All of this clearly indicates to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet was truly and really Allah's messenger and that he was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke about Allah without knowledge.

    10. With all this, Muhammad came with a great religion in its credal and legal make-up.

    Muhammad described Allah with qualities of complete perfection, and at the same time in a manner that is free of ascribing to Him any imperfection. Neither the philosophers or the wise could ever describe Allah like such. Indeed it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability, knowledge, and greatness; Who has subdued the creation; Who has encompassed everything in the universe, small or large; and Who possesses such perfect mercy.

    Nor is it in the ability of any human being to place a perfect law based upon justice, equality, mercy and objectivity for all human activity on earth like the laws that Muhammad brought for all spheres of human activity - like buying and selling, marriage and divorce, renting, testimony, custody, and all other contracts that are necessary to uphold life and civilization on earth.

    11. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom,, morals, good manners, nobleness of characters as what this honorable Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought.

    In a full and complete manner, Muhammad spread a teaching regarding character and manners toward one' parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching.

    All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger did not bring an) of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he received from the One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture and perfection.

    12. The legal and credal make-up of the religion that the Messenger, Muhammad, (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He who created the heavens and the earth is the One Who sent down this great law and upright religion.

    The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allah's law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him).
     
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