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What Jesus is Not!

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Chris†opher Paul, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Muslims (and rarely some Christians) apparently think that Jesus isn't God, but rather, a prophet or "good" moral teacher, etc.

    This is the one thing that Jesus can not be, since He said that He was God.  If he wasn't God, then he would either be a liar, lunatic, or a devil, for saying that He was. 

    He can't be a good moral teacher and claim to be God, unless He is God!

     
     
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  2. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Here is the scripture that shows Jesus claiming to be God:

    Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.

    Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God (you heard said / but I say to you).

    Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

    Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sin.

    Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law = God.

    Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

    Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

    Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

    Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

    Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God.

    Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

    Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

    Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

    John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. This Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God.

    John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

    John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father - whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

    John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

    John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

    John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

    John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - I AM = Yahweh.

    John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

    John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. John 14:28 - "the Father is greater than I" cannot contradict John 10:30. Refers to human messianic role as servant and slave.

    John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

    John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" = the Father and Son are equal.

    John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

    John 13:13 - Jesus says you call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM.

    John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

    John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

    John 16:28 - Jesus says that He came from the Father and has come into the world.

    John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

    John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

    Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

    Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

    Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

    Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
     
  3. Lizzi4Christ

    Lizzi4Christ I'm worth waiting for.

    +116
    Baptist
    Engaged
    US-Others
    I have another passage that I think proves it the best...

    Hebrews 1

    verse 1-4

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.


    verse 5

    For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

    verse 7

    In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire."

    verse 8-9

    But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

    verse10-12

    He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." 


    I really think that this shows it best. God is speaking in this passage. These are His words (it's bolded, italicized and underlined to show that it is God). When talking about Jesus, God calls him God (verse 8-9) Why would God call Jesus "God" as well as "O Lord? (verse10) Jesus IS God! He's just a different form. I mean, can you get any better then God calling Jesus God? :)
     
  4. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Well put.
     
  5. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
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    Hey sOuljah,

    He is neither a lunatic nor a devil and surely not God.

    Actually, he was as close as you can get to God, he shows you the way to his lord and yours, people made him God ( or a part from God that is ) in an endless mystery so you can turn to them but not to God himself for guidance. God blessed him with light where ever he went and aided him with miracles that no one had. So peace be on him the day he was born, the day he dies, and the day he rises again.


    110. When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic;

    Qur'an. 5 (THE TABLE SPREAD)



    29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

    30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;

    31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

    32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

    33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

    34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

    Qur'an. 19 ( Mary ).
     
  6. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Zico-

    You ignored the whole point of my post.

    Jesus said that He was God. Do you deny that? Do you deny the scriptural evidence? Do you imagine that people just made that up? And if so, how do you trust your Koran?
     
  7. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
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    The Qur'an is in our own language and not translated and also it is saved behind heart not just written on paper.

    And also we don't consider the bible to be totally made up, but also you can't deny the contradictions in it.

    Muhammad did not say any thing wrong, he only called people to worship God, he did not claim he was God, and God did not speak to him because God kept that to Moses only, He was only his slave and a warner to people.
    Can you explain the numbers of people reverting to islam ?????? and almost no muslim reverting to christianity ( except the poor and hungry African souls that your missionaries feed then convert ).

    It's a simple religion, this why people are reverting souljah.
     
  8. Thinker

    Thinker Senior Veteran

    +304
    Agnostic
    Single
    More accurately, the gospel authors claim that Jesus called himself God. It is at least possible that this is a claim they put in Jesus's mouth, and not something he said at all.
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
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    "Muhammad did not say any thing wrong, "

    I would tend to disagree since by starting this relgion he slaughtered many many people needlessly...

    http://www.carm.org/islam.htm
     
  10. Thinker

    Thinker Senior Veteran

    +304
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    "I would tend to disagree since by starting this relgion he slaughtered many many people needlessly"

    The same is true of Moses, Joshua, and other OT figures, seen from an outside perspective.
     
  11. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Anything is "at least possible" to some extent.  Of course, it is not probable or even logical.  There is no evidence of that occuring.
     
  12. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Um, yes, I can. There are no contradictions, only misunderstandings.

    So, you admit Jesus said He was God. Therefore, he either is God, or he lied, and if he lied, he can not be a "good" moral teacher, which your Koran claims that He is!

    How do you respond?
     
  13. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

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    Don't get me wrong here souljah, i was only referring to the teachings of Muhammad who called to worship the Lord of Moses and Jesus and correct what is wrong ( jews saying we are the children of God and no one will enter paradise but us , hell fire will not touch us except for few days, taking the calf as god when moses was away, God's hands are fetterd etc.., and Christians saying that God is not one but three and Christ was his son ), he also warned his followers about destroying their religion and giving a false image of it ( eg. Shi'ites, Ahmadiyah, Kadianis, Sufis, Nation of Islam, Wahabi, Moorish Science, Rastafarians, Five Per centers, Submitters International, Ansar Allah, Al Qaida etc...) , but God did teach him already in the Qur'an about human nature so we find his saying peace be apon him :

    "Muslims will divide into 73 groups. All will be in Hell, except one. The one me and my companions are on today."


    Please refer to section 1.2.7 of this book http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html ( you can also check chapter 1 and follow the authur's table till the end to get a good understanding about who Jesus was ).

    I know that you keep asking your self and people questions and demand answers that can satisfy you because you are a man of reason, and i respect you for that. :)
     
  14. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Thank you.

    But don't you admit the Jesus was a good moral teacher, but not God, as taught by your religion?
     
  15. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
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    But don't you admit the Jesus was a good moral teacher, but not God, as taught by your religion?

    Sorry bro., you have to say that again, i didn't get it.
     
  16. stillsmallvoice

    stillsmallvoice The Narn rule!

    +174
    Judaism
    Married
    Hi all!

    I s'pose that we'll just have to amicably agree to disagree on the subject of Jesus.
    Our (orthodox Jewish) views on the issue are well-known, as are the Christian & Islamic views. To each his/her own!

    Zico posted:

    I have seen that the Qur'an says this (I have Dawood's translation). With all due respect, this is preposterous, based on about as thorough a misunderstanding as possible of the idea of "the chosen people." If this is what the Qur'an in fact says in the original Arabic, then it is in error. I would never dare to presume to tell a Muslim or a Christian what their faith says & what their beliefs are; please show me the same courtesy. For the record, we do NOT believe that we alone are the children of God and we do NOT believe that no one will enter Paradise but us. Our Sages teach that, "The righteous of ALL nations have a share in the world-to-come."

    Be well!

    ssv
     
  17. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
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    Hey stillsmallvoice,

    Sorry if i offended you, i did not mean it really, but this is how we see it and every religion has an issue with the other ( atleast the main three religions ).
    Although i find my self able to post a reply on the matter which you just addressed, the fact is that your belief does not have any relation to this topic.
    Please accept my apologie and be well yourself.
     
  18. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Zico-

    Does Islam teach that Jesus is a good moral teacher only? A prophet of sorts?
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "The same is true of Moses, Joshua, and other OT figures, seen from an outside perspective."

    Good think it was 1. their land and 2. not the whole story huh?  If it ended at the book of Malachi I might be inclined to agree
     
  20. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
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    souljah,

    Islam teaches that he is a messenger and a miracle from God, and that he is aided by the holy spirit by God's will, and he also perfomed miracles ( healing the lepers, rising the dead etc.. ) and that God made him so special so the children of Israel can not deny him and accept him after Moses. But he is equal in the sight of God with the ones before him and the one after him, and he is one of the 5 strong willed messengers ( Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad ).

    2:285. The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying.

    Qur'an. 2 ( The Cow ).
     
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