What Jesus is Not!

LouisBooth

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"And again, is this because Muhammad told us that the myth of the trinity is wrong and that God the Almighty"

but Islam describes a god different then God. Plus, according to the bible trinity is right. Its a foundational thing essential to christanity.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and decptive philosphy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on christ."

To me that talks about the pillars and says, according to the bible, they are wrong.

Try this website http://answering-islam.org.uk/
 
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Zico

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Muhammad's Prophecies also taken from http://www.thetruereligion.org

Extracted from Material on the Authenticity of the Qur'an: Proofs that it is a Revelation from Almighty God by Abdur-Raheem Greene


I myself was influenced by my knowledge of the Bible to accept the Prophethood of Muhammad, and have had two Jewish rabbis admitting to me in Speaker's Corner that Muhammad was the Prophet spoken of in their books. It has long been recognised that a sure sign of the truth of a claim to Prophethood is the ability of that individual to accurately and consistently predict future events. This is especially true of Christians who often demand "what did Muhammad prophecy?". This is because the Bible lays down this as a means to distinguish a true Prophet from a false . Everybody is able to predict the future sometimes, some are able to get it right a lot of the time, but only someone who is receiving information from the One who has complete knowledge of the future can get it right every time. There are many predictions both in the Qur'an and the authenticated sayings of the Prophet Muhammed that have been fulfilled.

1. In part of a long narration found in the two authoritative books of Hadith, the Prophet was sitting in a garden. 'Uthmaan ibn Afan walked in and the Prophet asked Abu Musa 'Ashari (the narrator) to inform him of the good news of paradise, and also that the people would mutiny against him. The Prophecy was fulfilled in that 'Uthmaan became the leader of the Muslims, and secondly some of the people rose against him and slew him.

2. 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, the fourth Rightly Guided Caliph, had also been informed by the Prophet of his assassination in such detail that he knew the man who was going to kill him, and identified him and pointed him out to the people. They asked 'Ali why he did not kill the man and he replied: "Then who will kill me?" The night preceding his assassination 'Ali had come out, and gazed at the sky and said: "By Allah he never told a lie, nor was a lie ever told to him." The next day the same man killed 'Ali, and his blood spilled down his beard, as the Prophet had described.

3. Whilst the Muslims were fighting the Jews in Khyber, after some days of attempting to besiege the fortress, the Prophet said that the next morning he would entrust the flag to a man to whom Allah would give victory. He gave the flag to 'Ali, and the same day the fortress was conquered under Ali's command.

4. The Prophet saw 'Ali and Zubair one day laughing together, and he asked Ali if he loved Zubair. Ali replied: "How could I not love him since he is my nephew and co-religionist." The Prophet asked Zubair the same question, who gave a similar response. The Prophet then told Zubair that he would fight 'Ali, and that he would be the oppressor. So in the Battle of Jamal, when Ali and Zubair, in opposing camps came face to face. 'Ali reminded Zubair of the incident, and Zubair recalled, and said that he had forgotten, and he immediately left the battle field. So the battle took place as the Prophet had predicted, and Zubair was the oppressor, since Ali was the Rightful Caliph, and to oppose him with violence was wrong.

5. The Prophet said: "The Caliphate will last for thirty years, then there will be a biting kingship." So it happened. The rule of the Rightly Guided Caliphs was exactly thirty years: Abu Bakr for two, 'Umar for ten, 'Uthman for twelve, 'Ali for two and a half and Hassan three and a half. After that evil spread and kingship was established.

6. The Prophet also predicted the capture of Egypt, and told his companions to treat the people well, and that they would seize the treasures of the Persian Choseros (Emperor), who lives in the white palace, all of which they accomplished, and that Suraqa bin Malik (one of the companions) would have the bracelets of Caesar put on his hands. So it happened that some such bracelets fell into the possession of 'Umar and he called Suraqa, and placed the bracelets on him, reminding him of the Prophet's words.

7. A narration in the most authoritative of the Hadith books, Saheeh al-Bukhari, told Auf bin Malik to look for six incidents before the last day: "The first,my death; the second the conquest of Jerusalem; third, an epidemic among them; fourth, the abundance of wealth so that a man would not gladly accept one hundred dinars even if given it; fifth, a trouble that would involve all Arab families without exception; sixth, a treaty with the Christians, which the Christians would violate, etc.. (the hadeeth describes this last event, not yet fulfilled). Jerusalem was captured, and after this in 16 A.H. an epidemic broke out in Umwas and seventy thousand died. Wealth became plentiful, especially during the Caliphate of 'Uthman, and after that in the time of 'Umar ibn AbdulAzziz, when the collectors of zakat found no one poor enough to receive it. Also the rebellious war arose in the time of 'Uthman and became worse after his murder, so none of the Arabs families were not involved in some respect.

8. The Prophet mentioned that the Muslims would conquer both Rome and Constantinople. He was asked which would fall first, and the Prophet said: "The city of Heraclius", i.e. Constantinople. Constantinople was taken by the Muslims in the fifteenth century. Rome still remains to be conquered, as it will be. So the order is correct, and rest still to be fulfilled. What is noteworthy about these statements of the Prophet is that they were made at a time when no one could imagine that a small city state, permanently under siege by the pagan Arabs, would reach such heights of power and strength, and that these predictions are not couched in some vague terminology open to various interpretations, like the Bible's Book of Revelation's "Beast of 666", and monsters with horns and little horns, or the meanderings of Nostradamus. The language is clear, their assertions direct, and often with specific names and dates.

9. The Prophet also predicted the dividing of the Muslims into many sects and mentioned some of their characteristics. The Prophet mentioned that some people would do to 'Ali what the Christians did to Jesus. This clearly refers to the Shi'a, who exaggerate in love and praise of 'Ali. One of the Shi'a sects, the Nusaria, actually worship him as the manifestation of Allah. The Prophet also mentioned that a group would arise who will deny Allah's Qadr (Divine Decree) and he called them the "Magians of the Ummah", and so it happened, and they were called the Qadaria. He also mentioned the appearance of those who would claim the Qur'an is created, and of those who would tell people to take only from the Qur'an and ignore the Sunnah (Prophetic Tradition), and these things have all come to pass. The Prophet also predicted that from the tribe of a certain individual a group would arise who would used the verses of Qur'an pertaining to unbelievers on the believers, and that they should be fought and killed. So it happened that the first of the deviant sects to arise was the Khawarij, who said that 'Ali and Muwawia were unbelievers, and whoever did not believe this, then they also were unbelievers, and they would slaughter the Muslims, and they arose from the tribe of Tamim, as the Prophet had said.

10. The Prophet mentioned that there would be signs forewarning the approach of the last day. Among those that have clearly come to pass are:

a. The barefooted bedouins competing in building tall buildings. Today we find in the Arabian Peninsula, the Arabs who used to be impoverished herders of camels and sheep, are competing in building the tallest tower blocks.

b. The Mosques would be like palaces. This is clearly the case, even though the Prophet ordered simplicity in the houses of Allah, the mosques have become more and more fantastic, with golden domes, marbled floors, lavish carpets and chandeliers.

c. Disappearance of trustworthiness, so much so that one would only be able to say: "I know a trustworthy person in such-and-such town."

d. The increase in killing, so that the one who kills does not know why he killed, and the one killed does not know why he was killed. I was recently sent an article from the Washington Post about the rise of gang warfare. Part of the initiation ceremony was for a new gang member(some times as young as eleven) to shoot someone. The second highest cause of death from fifteen to thirty five in the US are gun related. The massacre of civilians in the Vietnam War by American troops who had little idea why they were there, and the increase of such conflicts, is further illustration of the fulfillment of this prophecy. As are the rise of insane mass murders, of children killing children, such as Jamie Bulger.

e. The increase of the use of riba (usury/interest) so that no one will able to escape being tainted by it. This clearly the state of the world economy today.

f. The enemies of the Muslims dividing the Muslim's wealth and lands between them, the Muslims abandoning jihad, and concerning themselves only with the worldly matters. We have already mentioned this.

g. The increase of literacy.

h. The decrease of religious knowledge due to the disappearance of scholars.

i. The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them.

j. The increase of sexual promiscuity, and new diseases that people had not herd of before spreading amongst them as a consequence of that. This is clear, with the arrival of AIDS, and other previously unheard of viruses.

k. Appearance of Dajjals (liars), each claiming to be a Messenger of Allah, while Muhammad is the last messenger. There are numerous examples of this, starting with Musailima, who arose in the time of the Prophet, just before his death, to more modern liars such as Elija Muhammad, founder of the Black American racist movement "The Nation of Islam", and India's pretender Gulam Ahmed of Qadian.

l. Nakedness of women while still being dressed.

m. The drinking of wine becoming common, and the Muslims making it lawful by calling it another name.

n. Shouting in the mosques.

o. The worst and most ignorant will become leaders and they will be oppressors.

p. A man will obey his wife and disobey his mother, and treat his friends kindly and shun his father.

q. Men will wear silk and gold, and the making of it lawful by the Muslims even though the Prophet had forbidden it for the men of his 'Ummah (nation).

r. People will abandon the religion for a small worldly gain, and keeping to the religion will be like holding two hot coals.

So these are just some of the numerous prophecies of Muhammad, that have clearly come true, and some have been fulfilled in this age in which we live, all adding weight to the evidence in favour of his claim.
 
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Lanakila

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I just read your rambling proof that Mohamed is the "true prophet". Because he prophecied a bunch of things that, I know nothing about that happened hundreds of years ago. This sounds like that other gospel that the Apostle Paul was talking about. Satan is a liar, and deceiver and appears as an angel of light, so I have no doubt that he would do anything that would lead people away from the truth. Since the Jesus is the truth.

John 14:6   Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It's interesting that you say that Jesus isn't God when this is what Jesus said about himself. John14:7-11 
 7.  If you really knew me, you would know  my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
 8.  Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
 9.  Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?
 10.  Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
 11.  Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves

What is interesting is Zico you didn't answer any of my questions. I posed questions of you in good faith, and you give me your ramble about Mohamed that doesn't answer any of them at all.

1. First, Mohamed received his revelation (the Koran) from the angel Gabriel, correct?

2. Could the angel have been an imposter?

3. If the angel could not have been an imposter, please explain why and how.

4. If by chance this wasn't truly an angel of God, but an imposter, who could it have been?
 
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darkwoof

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Originally posted by Lizzi4Christ
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

I'm non-denominational, and I feel that Christ is God, but only because of inheritence. After all, the verse did say "I will be his Father", as well as "Today I have become my Father", both signifying there was a beginning to his Sonship, or his status as God.

As for the status, it is true only because he represented the Father perfectly, doing not his own will, but that of the Father. Numerous times Christ admitted that. The perfectness and unity in will is shown in "My Father and I are one". The surbordination of the Son to the Father is shown in "The Father is greater than I".

Through the grace of God, faith and the quickening by the Holy Ghost, we too becomes sons of God. But Christ is Lord over all, to be glorified as the Father is glorified.

I'm an officer in a uniformed unit, and when we invest our authority in a surbordinate, what he commands is as good as I being there myself. Christ works the will of God, the Father in the same way.
 
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Originally posted by s0uljah
If you think God protects the Koran, there is no reason to think that God doesn't protect the Bible. The Bible, or the Catholic Bible, is unchanged for 1700 years, longer than the Koran is unchanged.

How do you respond Zico? 
 
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Zico

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Lanakila, you have to understand arabic to see that until this day, no one was able to produce a single verse semilar to the Qur'anic verses.


2:23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our slave, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

2:24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.


oh, and don't tell me it was the devil's work,,, devil's words don't cast out demons and other devils, and surely it does not heal sick people.


souljah,

God estableshed his case twice against us humans and showed us that we are always wrongdoers and sinners, and he also promised to protect his last revelation from mankind.

15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).


Preservation of the Qur'an http://www.thetruereligion.org/preservation.htm
 
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LouisBooth

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"oh, and don't tell me it was the devil's work,,, devil's words don't cast out demons and other devils, and surely it does not heal sick people.
"

Nope, but false teachers do. God said to them specifically, "depart from me I never knew you." ;) I think that will be the case with muhammad. My personal opinon.
 
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Here Zico:

"The revelations that comprise the Koran were revealed over a period of more than two decades in two places. The first revelations from the period of Muhammad's residence in Mecca are short and incantatory verses of extraordinary poetic beauty. The later revelations from the period after Muhammad immigrated to Medina are longer, legalistic texts appropriate to a developing community of believers in need of rules and regulations.

Muhammad and his followers initially committed the revelations to memory, but as these revelations grew in number and complexity, some were probably written down on whatever materials were at hand. After the Prophet died, his followers were pressed to preserve the purity of the revelations and began to write down as many of them as possible. According to the traditional view, a uniform written text of the revelations to Muhammad was collected and collated some twenty years after his death."

http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/faithkoran.html
 
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Zico

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Originally posted by s0uljah
Zico-

God allows free will, right? If so, He would allow people to change his Word, although He would keep the original intact, right?

The Catholic Bible is intact, as is the Koran. How do you pick which one is right?

 

 

1. Yes souljah, he allows free will. But he also works in mysterios ways, if you believe in that.

2. How do you define intact?.

 

Again i am happy i have found a very NICE and SIMPLE site, a must see for truth seekers ( I would recommend the Qur'an & Modern Science section from the left panel ).   http://www.it-is-truth.org
 
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Zico

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Hey souljah, one more thing,,,

Please visit this site http://home.swipnet.se/~w-20479/Audio.htm

download number 1 and 2 from the voice section ( both are zipped Real audio, and both combined are less than 10 mins. in length ).
 
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Zico

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souljah,,

a good debate ( Crucification: Fact or Fiction ) is found here http://islamicity.com/Radio/ch622.htm
And for a full understanding on islam's view on Jesus Christ you should check ( Christ in Islam *not a debate* ) on the same page. This should make you fully understand the muslim perspective.

Please souljah, i ask you to free some of your time to check ( Christ in Islam ) .
This is for the sake of good argument, which i really think you believe in. :wave:

And also for the sake of good argument,, this is the rebuttals page to Ahmed Deedat http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Deedat/index.htm
 
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Zico

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Thanks Ms.Babylon.

Here it is again ( if i can recall correctly ) :

@ Louis,

1- No one is perfect except God.
2- All messengers of God are sinless, but they do make mistakes since they're only human. eg. one day Muhammad*pbuh* was in his assembly with some chiefs of Makkah and he was engaged in trying to make them accept islam, then this blind man called Ibn Um Maktum suddenly enters the assembly and approaches the prophet and asks him to explain some point about islam. The prophet disliked his interruption and ignored him. After that, God revealed this surah :


1. (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,

2. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).

3. But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-

4. Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?

5. As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,

6. To him dost thou attend;

7. Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).

8. But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,

9. And with fear (in his heart),

10. Of him wast thou unmindful.

11. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:

12. Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.

13. (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,

14. Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,

15. (Written) by the hands of scribes-

16. Honourable and Pious and Just.


Qur'an surah 80 :1-16



And about the special nature of Christ*pbuh* :

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead."

Volume 4, Book 54, Hedeeth Number 506
 
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Originally posted by Zico
 

Since when souljah ????????.

Since it was formed into one "book"...the Koran was formed over time as well.  So, the point is, your "intact" argument is arbitrary.  The Catholic Bible is "intact" longer than the Koran.

Also, Islam teaches that Jesus wasn't crucified!?  :mad:
 
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