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What it means to have dead faith

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by BibleBeliever1611, Aug 16, 2021.

  1. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    No. That is not a “not saving faith”. That is “belief”. Belief and faith are not the same thing. There is no faith in the demons, because they have no action to give life to their belief.

    Yes, we receive the finished work of Christ through faith. But dead faith cannot transmit salvation. If faith is dead it is worthless and useless.

    As a matter of fact, yes.
    2 Tim 3:16 - “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,”
    All of the Bible is Scripture, yes?
    That means that all of what is written is part of the doctrine of the Church.
    That means that since God is infallible (1 John 1:5, Num 23:19), His Word (Scripture) is infallible, which means that if we have faith in one part (Jesus death, burial, and resurrection), then we can have faith in all the rest.
    That being said, it is not possible to trust in one part of Scripture and not another. Just as with marriage, 99% faithfulness is 100% unfaithfulness.

    No addition to Scripture here. All of what Christ said is related to salvation in that He is salvation. Everything He said deals with how we are to relate to Him, each other, and ourselves. It is all about bringing glory to Him.

    If even a single verse says something (taken in context and interpretation), this it is truth. PERIOD.
    Also, it must be combined and integrated with every other passages that relates.

    You seem to think that just because John 3:16 (just as an example) only says “believes” leads to salvation that there is nothing else necessary for us to receive salvation. If that were so, then Acts 3:19 would not be correct. Nor would Rom 10:10. That would make Scripture false, and we have already established that Scripture contains no error.
    So then, we must consider ALL the passages that say something leads to salvation (or forgiveness, or justification, or redemption, etc.) before establishing our doctrine on how salvation is received.

    Not at all. Christ’s Blood is the only thing that can save. But our faith is required as the conduit to bring us into contact with His Blood.
    Read Rom 6:1-11 and Col 2:11-13
    “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
    Rom 6:1-11

    “11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
    (by the Holy Spirit) by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,” Col 2:11-13

    In these passages the full picture of the moment of salvation is seen. The old man of sin believes the Gospel. He is immersed in water (baptized), and in the water the Spirit acts to remove sin and unite him with Jesus. This is the moment when salvation occurs. As the conduit of our faith brings us into contact with the Blood of Christ (through the Holy Spirit) which washes us clean of all sin.

    In Heb 5:9, what is the condition and what is the result?
    Does the verse say that those who are saved will obey?
    Or does it say that those who obey will be saved?
    “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”
    Salvation goes to those who obey. Or,
    Obedience comes from those who are saved.
    You tell me.
     
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Why do you put quote marks around the word? The Bible uses that word over 100 times in regard to salvation. It is a legitimate Bible word. And believing IS saving faith.

    Or Paul was dead wrong in his answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved. Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved."

    Why isn't that enough for you? It's pure biblical.

    The Greek word for belief involves trust. That's the key. You HAVE TO trust who Jesus is and what He did for you. Period.

    No, there is no "faith" in the demons because James NEVER used that word in 2:19. He said "the demons believe and tremble". Their belief is experiential.

    Do you understand or can you discern the difference between believing from experience and believing from trust? You NEED to be able to in order to understand the Bible.

    Which is trusting in that finished work of Christ.

    OK, I guess I'll have to explain is all over again. Please pay close attention this time.

    James was encouraging his audience to demonstrate their faith to others so the others can see their faith. Period.

    The example James gave in v.15,16 shows a believer who didn't demonstrate his faith to the cold and hungry believers. Instead, he gave lip service instead of actual help.

    How do you think those cold and hungry believers would view that hypocrite? Would his claimed faith be justified in their eyes? Of course not. In fact, being stiffed by a fellow believer generally is viewed the way you seem to; "that person isn't even saved, by the fact that he has no works". Nonsense.

    This time, really listen to what the "someone" is saying in 2:18 - But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

    The translations that insert quote marks have erred. They only show the "someone" saying the first sentence. However, that makes the entire verse goofy.

    Because in that first sentence, "you have faith, I have deeds" he is setting up the issue that the "someone" will make. Then, the "someone" says the second sentence, which is "show me your faith without deeds, and I (the someone) will show you my fasith by my deeds.

    So the "someone" actually has faith and deeds.

    FreeGrace2 said:
    Do you have a verse that includes all this in what saves?
    Yes, all of the Bible is Scripture. The words "Bible" and Scripture" are interchangeable.

    Correct. But it seems you fail to understand what is needed for salvation and what is needed for REBUKE, CORRECTION, and INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    This is what believers need. Unbelievers need the gospel. There is NO rebuke of sin, or corrrection of errors or even instruction in righteousness in the gospel.

    Your opinion is fallacy. You still seem to have no idea what the gospel is.

    I agree. But your insistence that EVERY part must be believed in order to be saved is fallacious, as I have to keep repeating to you.

    It seems you aren't open to the truth. You have your own opinions and agenda.

    Now you're talking again about our works. No one is saved by what they DO. It's about what they believe (trust).

    Nope. Your opinions are not reflected in Scripture. What you seem to be claiming is that one MUST understand and believe every part of the Bible to be saved. No one on this planet knows ALL of the Bible. Even scholars agree to that. And scholars don't agree on everything anyway.

    So if you were right, then NO ONE could be saved. Including yourself.

    This is true for ALL who are already saved. It is NOT about those who are not saved.

    Why would any writer of Scripture ever leave out anything when teaching how to be saved?

    Why do you think that makes any sense? It doesn't. Paul's answer to the jailer is 100% corrrect. "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved."

    And that is exactly what Jesus said in John 3:16.

    But you're not satisfied with all the clear verses, huh.

    Well, let's just a look-see at these verses.

    Acts 3:19 - Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

    Do you understand the meaning of the Greek word for 'repent'? It means to change your mind. In order to believe in Christ, one MUST change their mind about a lot of things.

    One must:
    1. believe that Jesus IS the Messiah
    2. believe that Jesus IS the Son of God (He is Deity - that really bugged the Jews)
    3. believe that Jesus died on a cross for everyone's sins including your own.
    4. believe that Jesus gives the gift of eternal life/salvation to those who trust in Him

    That's repentance. Any questions?

    When a person believes in these things, they are forgiven, per Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

    From all your posts, it seems you don't really believe this verse, huh?

    Correct, but what you claim contains much error.

    You've been shown, but you're not interested.

    FreeGrace2 said:
    You are sounding as though it is your own "act of faith" that ultimately saves you.
    Wrong. His blood saves no one. We are justified through faith in His blood. Not just His blood.

    Rom 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished —

    It is our trust in His work on the cross (His blood) that brings salvation.

    Paul was writing to believers. They are already saved. This passage is how to live the Christian life, not about how to be saved.

    Ditto here as well.

    Uh, no. The audience is already saved and they are being instructed as to how to live the Christian life.

    This is just so confused. This has all been explained to you, but you are not ready or willing or able to accept the truth.

    No one is brought into contact with "the blood of Christ". Are you a mystic or something? We are saved through faith in the work of Christ.

    In Heb 5:9, what is the condition and what is the result?
    Does the verse say that those who are saved will obey?
    Or does it say that those who obey will be saved?
    “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”
    Salvation goes to those who obey. Or,
    Obedience comes from those who are saved.
    You tell me.[/QUOTE]
    I did tell you but you aren't listening or absorbing.
     
  3. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

    +128
    Christian
    Part1.




    I covered with every verse regarding how man is dead ( with no Holy Spirit in him) and Christ rose from the dead, to be the Lord of both the dead and the quick, giving the new testament which is the removal of the heart of unbelief and giving a soft heart of flesh that can believe, that can have it's ears opened so they can hear ( these mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven in an honest and good heart)



    Now, we can remember Israel, and how the Lord wanted them to hear His words, to learn to fear the Lord.

    God also told Israel, that who will not hear the voice of the Lord, which is to do all His commandments, they will be cursed.

    Then in the next chapter of Deuteronomy, we understand that the Lord had not given Israel a heart to perceive ( to believe with) or ears to hear....



    Deuteronomy 4:10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

    Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

    Deuteronomy 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.





    Israsel requested that the terrifying sight of God, and the hearing of the words from Him who is fire, and God told them, He will rise up one, and put the words of God in His mouth. ( the words of fire and Spirit and life) and all that the Father commanded, so the Son spoke. Then all who will not hear, shall be destroyed....





    John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


    Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
    16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
    17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
    18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
    19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.





    Israel then refused to hear, they stopped the ear, making their hearts as an adamant stone. The Lord sent the words in His Spirit by the former prophets ( now the word was by the one prophet, the Lord Jesus Christ) and the word of course is Spirit and life, and only those of the Spirit of God may receive them.

    That is how God had to give the new Spirit, to put within man, and why the stony heart had to be taken away, and God giving the heart of flesh, as it causes us to ( hear) and then walk within the judgments of the Lord, and do them..




    Zechariah 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
    12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.





    This is God said it shall happen. The eyes shall not be dim but see, and the ears shall hear, and the heart shall understand knowledge ( the knowledge of Christ, of salvation by the remission of our sins)

    This is the deaf hearing, and the blind seeing. To be blind as He that is perfect.

    Israel seen, but observed not, the ears were opened, but Israel heard not.

    To incline the ear, to come near to the Lord, to hear the everlasting covenant which are the sure mercies of David.

    To call upon the Lord while He was near , for the unrighteous man to return to the Lord ( who came to seek them) calling them, ( and the sheep hear His voice of the Spirit, but men who are not His sheep do not have a Spiritually discerning ear)) and the Lords ways are so high above men's ways ( of what men can hear) by the distance of the Heavens to the earth.

    Jesus came to earth then for judgement. To give sight to the blind, and leave the Pharisees blind, not seeing they are yet in their sins ( by not being given eyes to see with by the Lord) and then no man could approach to the Lord ( unless Spiritually drawn and Spiritually given to believe)..








    John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

    Isaiah 22:3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.
    4 The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.

    Isaiah 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
    19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?
    20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.

    Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
    4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

    Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
    7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
    8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.


    John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
    40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
    41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.


    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.





    The Lord hears the poor, and the poor hear the Lord, they are His prisoners ( His sheep) who are in the prison house ( of death)The Lord seeks them and then they seek Him.

    The Lord came as a covenant to lighten the Gentiles, opening their blind eyes, out of darkness of death ( light sprang into our souls to believe with)






    Isaiah 42:6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
    7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


    Psalm 69:32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.
    33 For the Lord heareth the poor, and despiseth not his prisoners.



    Matthew 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.





    Jesus gave light to them that sit in darkness ( in the shadow of death) guiding us to the way, ( the light guides us to believe with and in, or we cannot see to go to the way of peace) which explains the wicked who sought not God, know not the way of peace by being in darkness with no light to see with given to them to believe with.



    Romans 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


    Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.





    Jesus is eternal life, and He is the light and life of men. The darkness ( that men are) cannot understand the light. ( need to be enlightened by the Lord)

    Then Jesus gives that power, to become the sons of God to believe on His name, ( which is giving power to believe in Him) to be born of God ( born of the Holy Ghost)


    That is to open their eyes, to turn them from darkness to ( His ) light ( shining in them to believe with) to take them from the power of satan ( which is the power of darkness, and men being blinded to the truth in darkness to satan's deception) to receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance to be sanctified by faith ( faith is in Christ not in darkened men)




    John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.





    God commanded the light to shine out of darkness, and shined in our ( darkened) hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ( to have the image of the Lord by the Spirit of Christ to believe and understand with)

    God called His chosen ones out of darkness ( the darkness of death) into His marvelous light ( by shining the light of the knowledge of the glory of God into our hearts, by the Holy Ghost)

    Then the message is declared, ( to those yet in darkness) and it is declared to them, ( as the Apostles were given the light to approach to the Lord with, and the hearing enabled by the word of God that is Spirit and life)

    God is light,there is no darkness at all, there is no fellowship with the Lord, while men in darkness, walk in darkness, lieing and not knowing the truth ( the Lord is the Spirit of truth who they do not know is the light of life)

    To walk in the light, as the Lord is in the light, gives fellowship with the light, having no fellowship wit the unfruitful ( and dead) works of darkness, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleans us from all sin ( by a good conscience given to them to believe with)..




    2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
     
  4. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

    +128
    Christian
    Part2.



    The dead ( in darkness) pass from death to life, ( from Adam to Christ) by hearing the voice of the Son of God.

    Israel never heard the voice of God at any time.

    The word of God ( Jesus Christ) was not abiding in Israel. Israel did not go to the Lord ( Jesus Christ who was in front of them) to have life ( the light of Jesus...



    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
    38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
    39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.




    Jesus declared the name of the Father to the disciples. Jesus answered to Pilate, how Jesus bore witness to the truth ( that is the declaration of the name of the Father) and every one that is of the truth hears the Son's witness.

    The Lord is near to all who call upon Him in truth ( the Spirit of truth is the only truth)....




    John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
    26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

    Psalm 145:18 The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.





    The Apostles were chosen to hear the voice of the Lord ( to be enabled to believe with by being given the gift of the Holy Ghost as we see in Apostle Paul)

    Israel heard, as the sound went into all the earth, but hearing comes by the word of God ( as the words are Spirit and life and natural man has not the Spirit of God)

    Israel required the arm of the Lord to be revealed ( it was not revealed to them but hidden from them) and they could not believe, as God left them in a hardened heart ( of unbelief) to not hear with their ears or see with their eyes, to be converted ( of the Holy Ghost) and be healed ( of sin)..



    Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

    Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

    John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
    40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.




    Then the Gospel is hid, as the god of this world keeps them blinded ( in the darkness of death) stopping the light of the Gospel of Christ from shining to them ( and in their darkened minds)

    The God of our Lord Jesus Christ may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, which is the eyes of your understanding being enlightened ( the blind say they can believe by their own eyesight ???????) and then they know the hope ( we are saved by hope and believe in hope against hope)



    2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
    4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


    Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


    Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

    Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?






    Then the ones in darkness only oppose themselves ( they do not oppose the Lord) and light excels darkness. God it is that gives anyone repentance, to the acknowledging of the truth ( that the deceiving antichrist spirit denies in all Christian places)

    Jesus had to correct the disciples, who yet had the heart hardened, which prevents eyes and ears, seeing and hearing.

    Just as the spirit of slumber was given to Israel ( unless the Spirit of being awakened out of the dead is given by the Lord, they in darkness and death,remain in death and in darkness.)..




    Ecclesiastes 2:13 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.

    2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


    Mark 8:17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
    18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

    Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
    9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
    10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.





    To hear the voice of the Lord ?

    Harden not your heart...



    Psalm 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
    8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
    10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
    11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.





    They could not enter into the rest of the Lord because of unbelief, which is hardeneing of the heart and not hearing the voice of the Lord.




    Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
    16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
    17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
    18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
    19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.





    Then we fear, as some come short of entering into the rest of the Lord.

    The Gospel preached, does not profit, unless it is mixed with faith, by those who hear it. ( need Spiritual ears to hear the Word with)

    The love of God is shed into our hearts, by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    Faith works by love ( the love of God) and then the love of man, and mans faith, works nothing...





    Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.





    To day, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts.

    Behold, Christ, the judge, stands at the door, and knocks.

    If any man did hear His voice, and let Him in, He will go in to them. ( into their body to dwell in them in Spirit for ever)...



    Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

    Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    In spite of your 2 very long posts, the fact remains that spiritually dead people CAN and DO hear.

    The proof is the number of unbelievers who understand completely the gospel, yet simply don't believe it.

    How can an unbeliever (spiritually dead) believe the gospel UNLESS and UNTIL they hear it?

    Rom 10-
    13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
    15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
     
  6. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    I put quotation marks around the two terms that are being contrasted.

    The terms are dramatically different.
    Belief is simple mental assent. It is a mental exercise only. It requires no action.
    But faith does require action. Without action it is dead. And that is the point the Spirit was making through James in that sentence.
    The demons believe, but they have no action, so they have no faith.

    No, he was not wrong. That particular passage just doesn’t tell us all of what Paul told the jailer. It is obvious from the context that Paul continued to instruct the jailer, and that the jailer repented, and was baptized immediately. We see the same context when Phillip taught the Ethiopian eunuch. We aren’t told all of what Stephen taught, but we do know that baptism was part of it because it was the eunuch who asked to be baptized.

    It would be enough if Scripture never mentioned faith. Or if there were examples throughout the OT of belief being the only factor in deliverance. But it isn’t. In EVERY case in the OT, and every case in The NT, and every case in Heb 11 (the faith Hall-of-fame) action in response to belief is the saving factor.

    Yes, you have to trust it enough to obey. To do what He says, regardless of how senseless it seems.

    Certainly I understand that difference. The demons are in the same place Thomas was in. He believed because he saw. But Jesus said that even more blessed are those who believe without seeing.

    Condescend much?

    When what you say is Biblical, I agree with you. But when you take a passage by itself, and don’t harmonize it with other passages, and cause it to say something unBiblical, I will call you out on it.

    This is nowhere in that Scripture. You are reading into it what you want to see. Yes, it is a good thing to have a good example to nonChristians, but that is not the primary audience for our faith. We must demonstrate our faith to God.
    As Jesus in the parable asks, Which son did the will of his father?

    That is a cute thought, but it doesn’t fit with the rest of the chapter. The very next verse talks about the demons as we covered above, and here he again covers that action less belief is not faith. Actionless belief is dead.

    Yes, I understand what the Gospel is. That is partly why I limited myself to the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. That and the fact that His death paid for our sin, and if we believe in Him, we can be baptized into Him and saved from the penalty of our sin, that is the Good news.

    No, all the rest does not need to be understood to receive salvation.

    No, I am talking about their faith. Faith goes beyond belief into action. Belief stays in his seat and does nothing; faith gets up and does what is commanded.

    No, I am not satisfied to take one verse and build my doctrine on it to the exclusion of other passages that contradict that doctrine.

    No, that is not all of what repentance is. It is also turning away from sinful life to a life of following Jesus’ commands.
    That is exactly what John told the Pharisees in Matt 3:8.

    I understand what you are saying, but you make a mistake in saying “His blood saves no one”. His blood is the only thing that can save. You are correct that it is received through faith, but as I said, faith is only the conduit of the blood. Faith is not what saves.

    It is like me giving you a gift and sending it by mail. Did the mail give you you the gift? No. I did, the mail just delivered it.

    No, it is our faith. Faith goes beyond even trust. Faith demonstrates our trust with action.

    Yes, he is talking to those in the Church about the moment when they were saved. He is taking them back to when they were not saved and explaining what happened in that moment.

    As I have said, I am not absorbing anything that does not agree with Scripture.
    Most of what you have said is contradicted by Scripture.

    Yes, through faith we come in contact, figuratively, with the Blood of Christ that washes away our sin (it is the only thing that can). It is the Holy Spirit doing the work in baptism to remove our sin by the power of the Blood. The Spirit does not remove our sin when we believe, only when we, in faith, obey His commands to repent, confess His name, and be baptized INTO His Name.

    There are half a dozen passages that state that baptism is the point at which we enter into Christ (are saved).

    I have tried to get you to open your eyes to that truth, but since your heart is hardened to the truth, I shake your dust off my feet as I leave you to your false ideas.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Faith and belief are basically interchangeable.

    That is quite incorrect. Mental assent means AGREEMENT with something. That's the SAME as belief. If you believe what someone says, you are in AGREEMENT when them.

    You comment about a "mental exercise only" is silly. Mental assent and agreement are both THINKING.

    Faith is trust. Go ahead and look it up.

    You still haven't proven that from Scripture.

    It is dead in the sense that it is not observable.

    No He wasn't.

    Didn't you understand the explanation that belief from experience doesn't involve TRUST?

    Please quit abusing James 2:19. It has nothing to do with saving faith. In fact, believing that "God is One" is what EVERY Pharisee believed. Were they saved by that belief? No.

    So believing in monotheism is NOT saving faith. So 2:19 is NOT about saving faith, or the lack of it. But, more importantly, we can't compare demons to humans.

    Well, read it again. The jailer asked a question. And Paul answered it fully. You just don't like the answer, so you make up stuff.

    If you would read the text more carefully, after Paul's full answer to the jailer, Paul then spoke to his household so they would know how to be saved. Only then did the jailer and household get baptized.

    Again, please read the text more carefully. Philip preached Christ from Isa 53. Only after he did that did the Ethiopian ask about baptism. Philip didn't even bring it up. That should be instructive. Why isn't it? Philip didn't preach Christ AND baptism.

    That's ridiculous.

    This paragraph is rather confusing. The pont is that the "action in response to belief is salvation. Absolutely.

    It appears you have missed the teaching that believers OUGHT to obey. There are many many verses in the NT about what believers OUGHT to do.

    This is absurd. Jesus never commands what seems to be senseless.

    OK, you're still stuck on James 2:19 huh. Look, believing in monotheism is NOT saving faith. No one will get saved by believing that "God is One".

    FreeGrace2 said:
    James was encouraging his audience to demonstrate their faith to others so the others can see their faith. Period.
    I'll prove it again, from Scripture which blows away your first sentence above.

    James’ justification is in the eyes of others.

    Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.

    Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

    Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

    Luke 16:15 - He said to them (pharisees), you are the ones who justifiy yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

    1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

    Clearly Peter is emphasizing that believers who live out their faith, not being hypocrites, will have a positive effect upon unbelievers.

    1 Pet 2:15 - For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

    Notice that is our ACTIONS (deeds) that silence others. iow, they SEE what we do.

    1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

    Respect = approval = justification in the eyes of men

    1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

    Again, respect, approval, justification in the eyes of men

    2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.

    If this verse doesn't convince you, you don't want to be.

    Do you know what you are insinuating? That God is NOT omniscient. That He doesn't know everything, and therefore, He needs to SEE our faith in action in order to KNOW we have faith. That is blasphemous, imho.

    God doesn't need to see our faith. Being omniscient, He already KNOWS when a person has faith. The demonstration of faith is for the benefit of others.

    As all the verse above PROVE.

    FreeGrace2 said:
    The example James gave in v.15,16 shows a believer who didn't demonstrate his faith to the cold and hungry believers. Instead, he gave lip service instead of actual help.
    It fits perfectly but with your closed eyes, you just aren't seeing it.

    No, there are 2 verses between v.16 and v.19.

    But you continuously prove that you don't even understand v.19.

    You keep repeating this mantra but without any Scriptural support. What the Bible does is encourage and exhort believers to demonstrate their faith. As I've proved.

    False claim. I've shown you many verses that all teach the same thing. But you are not willing to accept the truth.

    I proved it from Scripture as to what saves. It is faith in His blood (work of Christ).

    Define what you mean by "blood". That may be where your disconnect lies.

    Some of your statements are so unbiblical it is just stunning.
    Eph 2:8 specifically says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. So yes, we ARE saved by faith. Same as Paul's answer to the jailer.

    This is ridiculous. Jesus doesn't send His gift of eternal life by mail.

    Most of what you post is unbiblical.

    It is your eyes that are closed, tightly.
     
  8. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Freegrace: "How can an unbeliever (spiritually dead) believe the gospel UNLESS and UNTIL they hear it?"

    Rom 10-13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
    14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
    15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”




    They cannot call unless they can believe in Christ.

    They cannot believe unless they heard.

    Jesus calls them, and chooses them ( when chosen they are ordained/given the Holy Spirit) which is also chosen them to hear..



    John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.




    All who call on Him in truth, and truth is Spirit. No Spirit of truth, means no calling in truth.

    Israel called not in truth, as none can seek the Lord, the Lord must seek them and enable them ( by the gift of the Holy Ghost)


    Isaiah 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

    Psalm 145:18 The Lord is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;




    That is how we know the Spirit of truth, and the spirit of error, as the ones of the spirit of error ( the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience) cannot hear...


    1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
     
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    That wasn't my question. It was "how an an unbeliever believe the gospel UNLESS and UNTIL they hear it?"

    Of course. And unbelievers are spritually dead. Yet, they CAN hear and CAN believe.

    Fail. Please quote any verse that says this.

    Don't you know who Jesus was speaking to here? 11 SAVED people. And this election is clearly about service, from the RED WORDS, which has been my point all along.

    So, thank you for finding verses that support my view.

    This is about Paul. The BEST verse on Paul's election is Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

    Again, chosen for service.

    None of the other verses you quoted in your post proves your claim.
     
  10. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Freegrace: ""how an an unbeliever believe the gospel UNLESS and UNTIL they hear it?"

    "And unbelievers are spritually dead. Yet, they CAN hear and CAN believe."




    Your question is how to hear the Gospel, and you answer kit also, that even though they are spiritually dead, they can hear and can believe.




    No verses show anyone can hear, or have their own faith in Jesus, all show Jesus doing the calling and the choosing, otherwise it would not be all by Gods grace, it would be our own strength, our own holy faith, when it is testified and proven, all men were filthy ( opposite of holy faith) none sought the Lord, so the Lord sought us ( by His faith in us)



    You can keep to the opinion that all does not show the Spirit of God doing all, and I can keep showing it is.


    That is the prayer for us in Psalms, for God to renew a right Spirit in us, which is the joy of salvation ( of Christ as David did have the Holy Ghost but we need the Spirit of the Son of God formed in us, then sinners are converted to God..



    Psalm 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
    12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
    13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.




    The Spirit of God God pours out to us, this is God making His words KNOWN TO US..


    Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.





    The Spirit of God on the anointed Messiah, the same as on us who are anointed..


    Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    2 Corinthians 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;





    God was unseen, because of no Spirit poured out on us, now the Spirit was poured out we can see..



    Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.



    This is thew word of the Lord, not by our on power or might, but by His Spirit.

    The Spirit freely given to us of God to discern with.

    By strength no man prevails ( cannot believe cannot see cannot hear cannot live)..



    Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.



    The Lord sent all by His Spirit, in all the ones given to believe in God and to preach the suffering Christ would fulfil.

    God pours out on the house of David, the Spirit of grace, to look on Jesus who they pierced, and then to mourn as they are given to believe what they had done,, that was all by Spirit, as David again calls the Lord in Spirit..




    Zechariah 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.

    Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Matthew 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
     
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    No, it is not. It is simply about the fact that unbelievers CAN hear and believe the gospel.

    You continue to error. There are NO verses showing that Jesus chooses who will hear.

    John 5:25 does NOT say anything about God or Jesus choosing who will hear. The verse is clear: "the dead WILL HEAR". It seems you just don't believe that.

    Of course it is, since God created mankind with a conscience, with which to discern right from wrong. And to understand the gospel.

    While all this is rather dramatic, it is just as wrong. Hearing and believing aren't by "our own strength", since strength isn't even an issue. So you are only creating red herrings by such claims.

    And who says our own faith is "holy" anyway? Please quit making up such red herrings.

    David's prayer was for renewed fellowship v.10 and 12. And his request to not remove the Holy Spirit isn't applicable today since the indwelling Holy Spirit resides in every believer permanently.

    I was unable to see anything in the verses you quoted that say what you claim.
     
  12. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Freegrace: "You continue to error. There are NO verses showing that Jesus chooses who will hear.

    John 5:25 does NOT say anything about God or Jesus choosing who will hear. The verse is clear: "the dead WILL HEAR". It seems you just don't believe that."





    Does not have to say there, Paul was dead, and now lived, and Jesus chose Him to hear the voice of His mouth ( Spiritual voice as nobody else heard the words..


    Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
    9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

    Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.



    It is freegrace that does not believe what was shown to the world, the Apostle Paul is allowed to hear, and others are not. That is the difference between who is chosen and who is given the Spirit to discern with and who is not..






    Freegrace: "Of course it is, since God created mankind with a conscience, with which to discern right from wrong. And to understand the gospel."



    The conscience is given by God, all men had no conscience. no discernment, or to understand the Gospel, it is given by Christ as also the Spirit of fear of God is given to begin in wisdom and understanding. freegrace does realize ( or care) that he speaks his own words and has no interest in what the scriptures are saying, preferring to restate his own ideas without Gods word anywhere to be seen.


    1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

    Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
    14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Colossians 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

    Psalm 111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.





    Freegrace: "David's prayer was for renewed fellowship v.10 and 12. And his request to not remove the Holy Spirit isn't applicable today since the indwelling Holy Spirit resides in every believer permanently."


    All scriptures speak of Christ, only those who do not believe in Christ, think not.

    To not remove the Holy Spirit, is maybe because the humble and meek inherit the earth, i is what the Gospel speaks everywhere, as the exalted boasters are now cut off, permanently.


    Psalm 12:2 They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
    3 The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
    4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
    5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Once again, none of these verses say what you believe; that the spiritually dead cannot hear.

    Why do you continue to say this? John 5:25 doesn't say this at all.

    Yet, you STILL haven't provided any verse that says that "only the chosen will hear".

    Again, John 5:25 says "the dead will hear". It does NOT say "the chosen dead will hear" as you continue to opine.

    Why do you keep making up stuff? Rom 2:14,15 is a statement about the Gentiles having a conscience (compared to the law) so that even THEY can know the difference between right and wrong.

    Rom 2:14,15 -
    14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
    15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

    All just made up. Nothing here is found in Scripture.

    lol. I am giving the Scripture that REFUTES your opinion.

    This makes no sense. What I said about what David wrote is clearly seen.
     
  14. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

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    Free: "Why do you keep making up stuff? Rom 2:14,15 is a statement about the Gentiles having a conscience (compared to the law) so that even THEY can know the difference between right and wrong."

    Rom 2:14,15 -
    14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
    15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)




    These are the justified in Christ, who hear the law of God ( the law written in the heart is the new covenant God gives us) now as you claim, that it is already in them, nonsense..


    Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)




    Freegrace: " lol. I am giving the Scripture that REFUTES your opinion."

    I am glad you go lol now, this is your answer and how you are revealed in all..

    Luke 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
     
  15. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    let me ask you, to what are you more committed: your opinions and philosophy? Or Scripture?

    Be careful how you answer; this is a trick question.
     
  16. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    OK, thanks for making clear that you haven't read the 2 verses. It says NOTHING about Gentiles "justified in Christ". You just keep making up stuff.

    They "do BY NATURE things required by the law".

    Correct, this is total nonsense.

    As if this verse applies to me. That's a ROTF for sure.

    You have NO verses that say what you claim. I have verses that refute what you claim.
     
  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    FreeGrace2 said:
    I did tell you but you aren't listening or absorbing.
    I'm always careful how I answer. I answer from what I know the Bible says.

    My commitment is to Scripture. That's why I am able to quote verses that say what I claim and refute what you have claimed.
     
  18. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    I did not ask you if you can regurgitate Scripture verses. A lot of unbelievers can do that.

    I asked you what you were more committed to.

    So let’s test your commitment.

    In Heb 5:9, what is the condition and what is the result?
    Does the verse say that those who are saved will obey?
    Or does it say that those who obey will be saved?
    “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”
    Salvation goes to those who obey. Or,
    Obedience comes from those who are saved.

    Answer honestly this simple question.
    Tell me what SCRIPTURE says.
     
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    +1,617
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I haven't regurgitated Scripture. I quote it to PROVE that my views are in line with Scripture.

    I told you what I was committed to.

    Obey and be saved. Fine. I never denied that. But given every other verse on salvation, it is obvious to rational people that in this verse "obey" means to believe Jesus.

    You are free to feed your fantasy that obedience to commands will get you into heaven.

    The only command that will get anyone into heaven is the command to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

    This is truly pathetic. I've given you loads of verses that say to believe in the Lord jesus Christ and be saved. Yet, your only focus is on 1 verse.

    It is clear where your single committment is: salvation by your own efforts.

    Every command of action is done by yourself. So you essentially your own savior.

    The single exception is belief. Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2;8,9 prove that faith is NOT a work.

    Obeying commands constitute work. Except faith.

    But you aren't interested in truth, just your own opinions, or what some slick preacher convinced you of.
     
  20. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Well-Known Member

    +128
    Christian
    Freegrace: "OK, thanks for making clear that you haven't read the 2 verses. It says NOTHING about Gentiles "justified in Christ". You just keep making up stuff.

    They "do BY NATURE things required by the law"."





    Three verses, and then verse 13 says, the doers of the law shall be justified.


    Showing the law written in their hearts ( cant write it in themselves, it is written by the Holy Ghost)..



    Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)




    Here is by nature again.

    The uncircumcision ( Gentile believer in Christ) if he fulfils the law ( of Christ) judges the ( Jew) who by the letter ( WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT WRITTEN IN THE HEART LAW) transgresses the law, by the circumcision of the law and not of faith/of Christ, as circumcision is in the heart ( new heart given/new covenant given by Christ) in the Spirit, by God to have praise of God, and not men keeping any law by themselves..


    Romans 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.




    We worship God in His Spirit, that is when anyone is circumcised with the circumcision of Christ made without hands, calling the dead by entering them..


    Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

    Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.




    This is how they worship in Spirit and in truth, and in what Spirit that is to receive or you cannot do them..


    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
     
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