What is your view of atonement?

[~Anastasia~]

I love your footer - is it yours???!!!! As a somewhat increasingly 'ex-evangelical' I find that sort of statement about cure and asceticism deeply appealing (though I'd like to include mysticism too - a la Gregory) How much do we need to recover these things

It is a sort of merging of thoughts expressed by Fr. John Romanides and Met. Kallistos Ware. My signature is at the very upper limit of characters, so I had to edit it while hopefully keeping the sense of it, and no space for attribution.

I change my signature pretty regularly, but this was an important thought, in my estimation, as well as being very true.

I am grieved that so relatively few have the benefit of it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You know I have always wondered about that question Sdowney71. I just pose it as a question but is having the Holy Spirit the same as being 'saved'? So was salvation open to the 'normal' person who wasn't a Jewish 'Priest, Prophet or King?' I would suggest that whilst salvation is only through Christ, that to suggest it is only available from the time that Jesus was incarnate onwards is an error. And it also depends how you understand the idea of 'original sin' It would seem to me that if God is merciful and good and just (which is claimed - clearly) then there has to be provision and that in turn suggests that our understanding of the atonement is itself too limited. We are, as someone once suggested, looking in a mirror (and mirrors in those days weren't as we know them now!)

Christ descended into Hades and preached to the spirits held captive there, and He "led captivity captive" ... those who died before Christ's resurrection had the opportunity to be reconciled to God as well.

One might think that would be an outstanding opportunity to place faith in Him.

But yes, there are those seen as righteous from the OT period, some listed in the NT writings, such as Abraham. Those we know who were faithful to God and did not apostasize.

 

[rturner76]

I read your earlier posts as well and while I understand your reaction to your experience with Penal Substitution, my understanding of this doctrine is different and not that different from Ransom. Nor do I find a particular difficulty with the debt language.

I understand Penal Substitution this way. Sin separates us from a full relationship with God. Thus separated from God, the source and author of life, without any positive action from him we are dead. Relegated to destruction by the inherent penalty of our own action. Having no life in us and rightly deserving God's displeasure and destruction. We cannot return to him for he is wholly just and righteous--it would destroy us. He cannot just overlook our unrighteousness and rejoin us--it would destroy us. The Son, out of the great love that God has for us, became flesh. He maintained his human relationship with God, he did not become unrighteous, he did not seek to become his own God, etc. But, he suffered death anyway--an unjust death. God cannot be unjust. Because Christ, who was blameless, spotless, and righteous, died, it would be unjust to exact punishment again. In essence, the Son says, "my punishment is enough" and the Father agrees.

The Father did not insist that someone be punished for Man's sin. Christ willing became Man to rescue us from the pit we made for ourselves. But the demands of justice and righteousness required death, a debt he paid.

This point of view can be seen in Paul, in Anselm, in Julian of Norwich, in the Reformers, in Lewis, and others, but the mystery of it all is actually beyond us and we can't see or grasp it clearly. Human concepts of justice, debts, penal systems, etc aren't quite up to the task.

Ultimately, I think most of the atonement theories have part of the whole--but all are insufficient alone.

I actually agree with pretty much all of this. The only difference between the Satisfaction theory and the Penal Substitution theory is that in one Christ dies and is punished instead of us. In the other Christ dies and gives himself to God as an offering.

In both scenarios Christ has suffered and died so that we might be redeemed. From my understanding it was Anselm's Satisfaction theory that Calvin and the Reformers based Penal Substitution theory on. Especially when it came to justification by faith.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Colossians 1:20)

All that said, I am not a theologian and have only been studying this for a short time. I could have been mislead. I have only gone by a few sources that provide summaries of different theories and not dug into and first hand writings of any theologians.

 

[sdowney717]

Well, OT believers such as prophets like David had the Holy Spirit:
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)

They were not born again.
Hebrews 11, speaks of the OT saints, who were though saved persons because of their faith.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

When you are born again by the Spirit, then your spirit is perfected and does not sin.
2 Corinthians 5
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

 

[PeaceByJesus]

They were not born again.

Based upon your following debatable premise:

Hebrews 11, speaks of the OT saints, who were though saved persons because of their faith.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
When you are born again by the Spirit, then your spirit is perfected and does not sin.
2 Corinthians 5
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Well, that would be worthy of its own thread!

 

[sdowney717]

Based upon your following debatable premise:

Well, that would be worthy of its own thread!

Yes it would. People are spirit, soul, body. The spirit of a man is perfected and does not sin when born of God. The Holy Spirit indwells the born again spirit of man, He has made a home for Himself in His people and lives there.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Tell me, surely you know, could anyone be born again as Christ describes in the New Covenant before the first coming, death and resurrection of Christ.

The OT saints were saved in a totally different category than those "born again", who become one with Christ--- happening since the Cross, Resurrection, and Pentecost. The OT prophets had the Holy Spirit come upon them, but never to remain and live within them.
Since the Incarnation, the Lord has been forming the Church and calling His Bride, who will reign (as one body with Him) forever. OT saints are friends of Bridegroom but have not the same intimacy and destiny.
Note what Jesus said about John the Baptist, the greatest prophet in Matthew 11:11: “Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”
As great as John was (and is), he was never "born again" by the Holy Spirit, he cannot be "in Christ" and live "the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory." (Col 1:26-27)

 

[sdowney717]

The OT saints were saved in a totally different category than those "born again", who become one with Christ--- happening since the Cross, Resurrection, and Pentecost. The OT prophets had the Holy Spirit come upon them, but never to remain and live within them.
Since the Incarnation, the Lord has been forming the Church and calling His Bride, who will reign (as one body with Him) forever. OT saints are friends of Bridegroom but have not the same intimacy and destiny.
Note what Jesus said about John the Baptist, the greatest prophet in Matthew 11:11: “Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”
As great as John was (and is), he was never "born again" by the Holy Spirit, he cannot be "in Christ" and live "the mystery of Christ in us, the hope of glory." (Col 1:26-27)

Yes, that is right, for their time on this earth, they are now perfected living with the Holy Spirit, Saints (God's people) and the elect angels in heaven. They were not to be made perfect apart from us. Heb 11.

Hebrews 12
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[victorinus]

That is my personal view of Christ;s atonement, what is yours?

atonement is an old testament word
-so-
I wonder why you are using it and not redemption
-
to me it is very simple
-
before Jesus redeemed us, no one could be saved -
after Jesus redeemed us, anyone could be saved
-if-
they did the right thing

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Yes, that is right, for their time on this earth, they are now perfected living with the Holy Spirit, Saints (God's people) and the elect angels in heaven. They were not to be made perfect apart from us. Heb 11.

Hebrews 12
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake

22 but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Thanks much! It is rare these days for me to come upon a passage or phrase which I never recall seeing, or more often, whose significance I had never realized. But Hebrews 12:23b is just that.

 

[Best friend]

We have to aproch this subject with extreme caution, if I understand correctly the question is what is the Attonmen, what was the primary need for the Attonmen.

I read in the OT how the high priest springle the blood of the Attonmen on the Altar, and cover with the blood all the people,

( the names of the twelve tribes where on the Altar),

(and the priest also springle the blood of the Attonmen on the people)

That's how I see it:
Before the covering of the names of the twelve tribes on the Altar and the springle of the people, the Lord God can see the people as they are, in their personal standing, (and the people were afraid, of the judgement of their Lord, as nothing was hidden from him, and ignorance was not an exuse,
(perhaps for the severity of punishment may well be)
But the Momment the blood was springle on the people and the names of the Altar was cover, the people found their peace, together with the High Priest.
At that Momment the Lord God show the people and the High priest filtered through the blood of the Attonmen sacrifice.
The sacrifice was pure, perfect, according to the requirements, and the High preist had to attest to that, and so were the people,
When the Lord looked upon the people he show the qualities of the sacrificial lamb on them,
They were under the blood of the sacrifice, as the sacrifice was , so they were .
( the Lord new the specific state of been of everyone),
But he show them under the blood, the blood cover them and all their iniquities, they had peace with him, through the blood of the sacrifice.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

atonement is an old testament word
-so-
I wonder why you are using it and not redemption
-
to me it is very simple
-
before Jesus redeemed us, no one could be saved -
after Jesus redeemed us, anyone could be saved
-if-
they did the right thing

Yes, simply said and true. However, atonement was an OT revelation, preparing for the New Covenant. The OT saints had a covering by the blood sacrifices (looking ahead to Jesus as the Lamb of God, even if they did fully understand this). They, like us, were saved by their faith. But OT saints were not called (as we are in this age) to be part of the Bride of Christ... Christ in us, and we in Christ. We are so blessed.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

We have to aproch this subject with extreme caution, if I understand correctly the question is what is the Attonmen, what was the primary need for the Attonmen.

I read in the OT how the high priest springle the blood of the Attonmen on the Altar, and cover with the blood all the people,

( the names of the twelve tribes where on the Altar),

(and the priest also springle the blood of the Attonmen on the people)

That's how I see it:
Before the covering of the names of the twelve tribes on the Altar and the springle of the people, the Lord God can see the people as they are, in their personal standing, (and the people were afraid, of the judgement of their Lord, as nothing was hidden from him, and ignorance was not an exuse,
(perhaps for the severity of punishment may well be)
But the Momment the blood was springle on the people and the names of the Altar was cover, the people found their peace, together with the High Priest.
At that Momment the Lord God show the people and the High priest filtered through the blood of the Attonmen sacrifice.
The sacrifice was pure, perfect, according to the requirements, and the High preist had to attest to that, and so were the people,
When the Lord looked upon the people he show the qualities of the sacrificial lamb on them,
They were under the blood of the sacrifice, as the sacrifice was , so they were .
( the Lord new the specific state of been of everyone),
But he show them under the blood, the blood cover them and all their iniquities, they had peace with him, through the blood of the sacrifice.

Thank you for your response. I confess that I was a bit distracted at first by the many misspellings and poor English grammar, but that was more my problem as an English writer than your problem.

You revealed that you understand the need in the OT for the blood sacrifices (all looking forward to the ultimate blood sacrifice of the Lamb of God at the cross.) All those who believed in what the priests did and accepted that covering of blood, we accepted by their faith. This still applies today regarding the Atonement sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

 

[Addvantage]

The answer is Biblical. The atonement is found in the Sanctuary as given to Moses by God. The Day of Atonement was where the Sanctuary was cleansed... the most holy day of the year. The congregation had spent the previous ten days since the Feast of Trumpets, during the 10 Days of Awe, confessing and repenting. The sins confessed by the daily sacrifices transferred the sin to the symbolic lamb, which was killed, and the blood was then transferred to the Sanctuary by sprinkling it before the Most Holy Place, where the Ark of the Covenant was. On the Day of Atonement, another sacrifice was held and one of two goats were chosen to be the Lord's goat. This blood was taken into the Most Holy Place and sprinkled on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant. This was the "TYPE". The Antitype of this is that Christ Himself, after the cross, ascended to heaven and offered His blood to atone for all who have sinned and have accepted His sacrifice in substitute for our penalty of death.

 

[ViaCrucis]

For a number of years now I've primarily identified with the Christus Victor theory. To which I have some other thoughts that I've expressed and contemplated over the years:

The stress which Irenaeus places on the idea of Recapitulation, I think, is important (obviously); I also think there's another dimension to this. Christ does not merely take upon Himself our humanity even unto death, rather God has, in Christ, identified with the lowly, the unwanted, and the victims. After all, if it were only death itself that were important, this could have been achieved by a natural death, or some kind of accidental death; but what we have instead is the brutal execution of Christ by way of the Roman cross, the symbol of Roman terror, torture, and oppression. God has, in Christ, become the Victim of our own human ugliness--we killed Him, we nailed Him there, we mocked Him. God bore humiliation and defeat at the hands of wicked men. There is, in this, a profound reversal of power, namely that the powers of this world acted in concert to crucify the Son of God; and in dying (and rising) Jesus has overcome those powers. Overcome sin, death, hell, and the devil--yes!--but also the world. Christ has triumphed over Caesar, not through a bloody coup, but in the humiliation of defeat and transforming that defeat into victory. St. Paul says that Christ made a "public spectacle" of the powers and principalities. Christ has disarmed the powers of violence--He took upon Himself the brutality and inhumanity of the world, and disarmed them, robbing violence of its power; and embracing His persecutors in love, and in Himself calling forth reconciliation between oppressed and oppressor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Best friend]

Yes, simply said and true. However, atonement was an OT revelation, preparing for the New Covenant. The OT saints had a covering by the blood sacrifices (looking ahead to Jesus as the Lamb of God, even if they did fully understand this). They, like us, were saved by their faith. But OT saints were not called (as we are in this age) to be part of the Bride of Christ... Christ in us, and we in Christ. We are so blessed.

None of the people of the Lord God, including the OT saints, were saved from the descent after they die, but they were saved for not descenting in the same place as the people of the rest of the world.
They had been given their own place in the Land of the dead.

There, they were waiting for God's Christ to come and take them out from there.
Abraham had this revelation before he died, (jesus said; Abraham had seen my day and he rejoice ),

I am not saying that all the children of the Lord had this knowledge, that did not really mater, because when they gather to Abraham , he would informed them.

David was one who knew, for he said my Lord God is the Christ to be, I will descent to Seol when I die, but he won't leave me there forever .

That's where Abraham received his Descendans and he show that indeed the Lord had bless him, and he made him a Greate Nation.
As the people were descending to Abraham's BOSSOM they informed him about everything.

That was the first stop of Jesus after his death on the Cross.

Jonh the Baptis who announce the coming of Christ here on earth, he also had the mission to anouncing his coming to Abraham and to all the others who were in the Bossom of Abraham, the paradise of the children of the Lord God,
(today you will be with me in paradise),
while they were waiting for him as the Christ to take them to Heaven with him at the time of his resuraction.
Jesus died for all And he preach the Gospel to all who had died before him, unto the first man who die and was taken captive by the Devil,
ABEL, and the first man ADAM.

God Raised Jesus from the dead and gave him the Heavens as his inheritance.
That's where Jesus took everyone who believed in him, when he preach the Gospel to those who had die before him.
When God raised him from the dead , they were raised up together with him, God's children in the name of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said; I will descent to the very low parts of the earth and show my self to all the powers and fallen angels down their, before I ascent to the very high,
Every one must seem me and bow down to me, I hope that no one expects the fallen angels to go to Heaven to bow down to him, that's why Jesus had to go to their place of prison to show himself to them.

Not only the OT saints , but everyone who had die before him and believe in him, down in Seol, Jesus took out from their in the new Promish Land, the Heavenly one.

Hope that no one expects those who had die before Jesus to be in their body when they head the Gospel from Jesus and believed.
They were saved by faith only, the way we are saved ourselfs.

That's the mission of Jesus those three days, everyone must here the Gospel, and the dead heard it from Jesus and believed, and were saved first, before the living.

Jesus said; the dead will hear his voice and raised up first. The dead will raise first.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

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Mark
CF Admin

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

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[Light of the East]

I am assuming that you are a Christian and thus you know that it is basic Christian doctrine (the mind of Christ) that ALL of us are sinners and deserve, at best, elimination from existence. This is why the forgiveness bought by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is so meaningful.

No, children do not deserve "elimination from existence." If a child is miscreant in conduct, you do not take you child and shoot him. You correct him, perhaps severely, and perhaps repeatedly if he does not learn, but you correct him so that his behavior changes. This is what a father - Our Father - does. He is not like the descriptions of the pagan "gods" that apparently Dante and the Western Church has fallen in love with.

God is a pure, perfect, and holy God who cannot allow imperfection in His world and especially in His Kingdom.

Well, philosophically, this is an interesting statement because He did exactly that, didn't He? He created Adam and Eve knowing that they would fall and bring evil into His world that He had created. Not only that, but He allowed the Evil One to tempt them, knowing beforehand (omniscience) that they would do exactly that.


But this is indeed a fallen world with not only imperfection and unjust suffering, but downright evil. God has a perfect plan to fix this problem. The Incarnation, the atonement, and the Word of God written. And according to this message, God says that ALL of us are sinners deserving of death.

“Who can say, ‘I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin’"? (Proverbs 20:9)

“As it is written: ‘There is no one righteous, not even one…’” (Romans 3:10-12)

“…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…” (Romans 3:23, see also; Ps 14:1-3, 53:1-3; Eccles 7:20)

So for something that I cannot help doing, rather than give me a cure, I am to be terminated? I think I would find it much more merciful and in line with God as love if He gave me a big old does of spiritual castor oil, even though I will not like it.

So sinners (all of us) are doomed. The penalty for our sinfulness is elimination or worse; it is what we truly deserve.

Not getting banned from this board keeps me from speaking my mind about the above comment.

We get thrown into the divine incinerator--- IF we do not repent and believe in the Savior.

I think I'm beginning to understand why Anglicans thought it perfectly okay to kill Catholics a couple of centuries ago. Your statement shows the mindset of such theology towards all who are "heretics" and "deserve to be incinerated." Of course, Presbyterians and Calvinists were no better, especially the savage John Knox who hunted down Catholics as if they were animals.

Romans 6:23 reads, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” And all it takes to be saved is belief/faith in Christ and what He did for us at the cross and in the resurrection. But we must believe the gospel as found in the New Testament* (and prophesied in the OT).

*Properly interpreted. The Western soteriological interpretation quite frankly gives me the willies, and makes God someone whom I'm not sure I want to know. I find the God of the Eastern Fathers of the Church to be more in line with the biblical statement that God is love.

 

[Light of the East]

Does this make sense or is it too simplistic, too out there? Evil is the natural order for mankind in a post Garden of Eden Sin partaking of the tree era. In the universe, Justice is as real as is time, space, matter, energy. Justice must be satisfied for good to dominate evil. Otherwise, evil has no confinement.

What exactly is meant by "justice?" In the Western world, which is dominated by Roman legal thought, justice means has a legal sense. It looks forward to punishing the one who has done wrong, with the idea of retribution or evening the score.

I think the more biblical understanding, based on Strong's definition, is "to do justly, or what is right." And since the Eastern Church sees sin not as a legal issue, but as a medicinal issue, we see to do justice in the divine sense as offering us a CURE FOR OUR ILLNESS and restoration to whole health (divinization or theosis).

Since God is just, He always does right. And since God is love, the right thing to do is to act in love towards sick sinners, not burning them forever in fire tortures, but giving them the spiritual medicine they need to be healed. In this life, that medicine is the Eucharist (the "medicine of immortality" according to the Early Fathers), in the next life, it is much more severe, being administered with fire for the chastening and correction of the wayward soul. Even some who are receiving the Eucharist in this life may well have to have some fire chastening (1 Corin 3) done to remove the last vestiges of stubborn sin.

Satan, judged and in the lake of fire is the manifestation of Justice as it is meted out by God. Not that God could not have made Satan's eternal confinement satisfactory. Justice was what God created to be the lock and key. However, man became as subject to Justice as Satan when he violated the one rule in the Garden.

Nope. That's Augustine's legal view of penal substitution. I am not guilty of Adam's sin. My own sins are quite enough, thank you!

For all that time there after, justice could not be met without judgement but judgement was always one sided. No man could be found worthy to escape Justice. Until Jesus took all sin and buried it in hell.

In the East we say "By death He conquered death." Being in a state of death (i.e., separation from God) is why we sin. Christ gave unto the Father the perfect obedience which is man's due to the Father, and took upon Himself our broken human nature and healed it.

Then justice was satisfied and man returned to his former glory of simply needing to accept that God is the one and only, I am. How? Acknowledge the sacrifice of Love by the creator.

I think it goes deeper than that. What of those who have never heard in the past 20 centuries? Romans 2 states that it is by following the Law of love placed in the heart by the Holy Spirit by which pagans who have never heard would be saved. In short, it is union with God by becoming like God in our actions, either consciously because we have heard the Gospel and respond in obedience to it, or unconsciously because we have had the Gospel put in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and we follow those inclinations which He gives.