What is your view of atonement?

[rturner76]

Besides this being a false dichotomy, so it was not a sacrifice to God?

Your right, I worded that wrong. We are actually talking about the same act. Christ's sacrifice as a substitution for our sin. That I do not dispute though I failed in my expression. What is different about my belief is that i believe it was the satisfaction of a debt, not punishment for sin. Christ paid our debt with his blood out of love and obedience, he wasn't our whipping boy accepting our punishment. It is the same event but it's satisfaction instead of a punishment. It's just a small difference in dogma

 

[marineimaging]

Does this make sense or is it too simplistic, too out there? Evil is the natural order for mankind in a post Garden of Eden Sin partaking of the tree era. In the universe, Justice is as real as is time, space, matter, energy. Justice must be satisfied for good to dominate evil. Otherwise, evil has no confinement. Satan, judged and in the lake of fire is the manifestation of Justice as it is meted out by God. Not that God could not have made Satan's eternal confinement satisfactory. Justice was what God created to be the lock and key. However, man became as subject to Justice as Satan when he violated the one rule in the Garden. For all that time there after, justice could not be met without judgement but judgement was always one sided. No man could be found worthy to escape Justice. Until Jesus took all sin and buried it in hell. Then justice was satisfied and man returned to his former glory of simply needing to accept that God is the one and only, I am. How? Acknowledge the sacrifice of Love by the creator.

 

[rturner76]

Does this make sense or is it too simplistic, too out there? Evil is the natural order for mankind in a post Garden of Eden Sin partaking of the tree era. In the universe, Justice is as real as is time, space, matter, energy. Justice must be satisfied for good to dominate evil. Otherwise, evil has no confinement. Satan, judged and in the lake of fire is the manifestation of Justice as it is meted out by God. Not that God could not have made Satan's eternal confinement satisfactory. Justice was what God created to be the lock and key. However, man became as subject to Justice as Satan when he violated the one rule in the Garden. For all that time there after, justice could not be met without judgement but judgement was always one sided. No man could be found worthy to escape Justice. Until Jesus took all sin and buried it in hell. Then justice was satisfied and man returned to his former glory of simply needing to accept that God is the one and only, I am. How? Acknowledge the sacrifice of Love by the creator.

Makes sense to me. So in other words Christ Satisfied justice?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Your right, I worded that wrong. We are actually talking about the same act. Christ's sacrifice as a substitution for our sin. That I do not dispute though I failed in my expression. What is different about my belief is that i believe it was the satisfaction of a debt, not punishment for sin. Christ paid our debt with his blood out of love and obedience, he wasn't our whipping boy accepting our punishment. It is the same event but it's satisfaction instead of a punishment. It's just a small difference in dogma

Is not punishment for sin actually a justice satisfaction of a debt? We hurt others (and thereby God) and thus owe them? The OT Law was an eye for an eye, etc. but the Cross eliminated this for those of faith. Jesus took the punishment and thus paid the debt for us.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Does this make sense or is it too simplistic, too out there? Evil is the natural order for mankind in a post Garden of Eden Sin partaking of the tree era. In the universe, Justice is as real as is time, space, matter, energy. Justice must be satisfied for good to dominate evil. Otherwise, evil has no confinement. Satan, judged and in the lake of fire is the manifestation of Justice as it is meted out by God. Not that God could not have made Satan's eternal confinement satisfactory. Justice was what God created to be the lock and key. However, man became as subject to Justice as Satan when he violated the one rule in the Garden. For all that time there after, justice could not be met without judgement but judgement was always one sided. No man could be found worthy to escape Justice. Until Jesus took all sin and buried it in hell. Then justice was satisfied and man returned to his former glory of simply needing to accept that God is the one and only, I am. How? Acknowledge the sacrifice of Love by the creator.

Agree. So the only sin that really matters now is the sin of unbelief. Jesus paid for the rest. Unbelief keeps people doing all kinds of sins, but belief causes us to truly want to please God; we are so thankful for what Jesus did that we seriously fight temptations and as we mature in the faith, His Spirit enables us to be increasingly victorious.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

The only problem I have with that is "God says that ALL of us are sinners deserving of death." All are dead already without Him. Ephesians 2:1 and we're made alive in Him Colossians 2:5-15 He is the atonement because He redeemed us to Himself.

Also the "divine incinerator" is in place for satan and the family thereof, yet hell begins and ends in one day Revelation 20:5, Revelation 5:7-10, Revelation 21:2, Revelation 21:8

In the fire and brimstone reference in Rev the angels sit about watching that. Do you think they sit there for an eternity ... I don't

Not only does Jesus use metaphors that indicate that some people are ultimately His sheep (all saved) and others are Satan’s goats (none saved), He also called the goats “children of the devil.” (John 8:42-44, Matthew 13:37-42, John 6:70, echoed by John (1 John 3:10) and Paul (Acts 13:10). If they are actually children of Satan, then it makes perfect sense that that they would accompany him in his eternal destiny in the divine incinerator.

Your annihilationism (hell for a day?) is regarded as heretical by most churches and officially by this website. Many scriptures speak of eternal suffering following judgment-- because angels are created to be eternal creatures and the Atonement and Resurrection of Jesus made human beings immortal; both the saved and unsaved will experience a resurrection.

Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that soul and spirit are not extinguished by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Your right, I worded that wrong. We are actually talking about the same act. Christ's sacrifice as a substitution for our sin. That I do not dispute though I failed in my expression. What is different about my belief is that i believe it was the satisfaction of a debt, not punishment for sin. Christ paid our debt with his blood out of love and obedience, he wasn't our whipping boy accepting our punishment. It is the same event but it's satisfaction instead of a punishment. It's just a small difference in dogma

The question then would be, how is atonement (including by animals) shown to be that of paying a debt? You mean as in satisfying the demands of justice?

 

[jessehove04]

My atonement theory is:
Colossians 1:15-20

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything.19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Combined with:

Phillipians 2:6-11
who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
7 but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
8 he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Maxelcat]

Interesting question and discussion. I recently had to write a piece comparing the Orthodox/Western views of the atonement as expressed by Gregory of Nyssa and Augustine. I think it comes down their being many and varied accomplishments/effects from the WHOLE of the life of Jesus from incarnation, participation through to crucifixion and resurrection and onto now and into eternity. Interesting, the churches I have been around only really every mentioned the 'judicial debt we owed' stance - and the more I look at this, the less prominent I see that is is in scripture.

There is no one easy answer. That's part of the mystery, wonder and the beauty of it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Interesting question and discussion. I recently had to write a piece comparing the Orthodox/Western views of the atonement as expressed by Gregory of Nyssa and Augustine. I think it comes down their being many and varied accomplishments/effects from the WHOLE of the life of Jesus from incarnation, participation through to crucifixion and resurrection and onto now and into eternity. Interesting, the churches I have been around only really every mentioned the 'judicial debt we owed' stance - and the more I look at this, the less prominent I see that is is in scripture.

There is no one easy answer. That's part of the mystery, wonder and the beauty of it.

Hello Maxelcat, and welcome to CF, and to Traditional Theology! We are glad that you've joined us.

I have to agree, I found the same thing when I started looking into more traditional views and comparing what I had previously been taught with Scripture. There is much more going on, and it encompasses all of Christ's life, than what I had once thought.

Again, welcome to CF. If you need any help finding your way around, please let us know and we will be glad to help.

 

[sdowney717]

19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

God reconciling all things through the blood is all through the OT as well. All things are reconciled by His death on the cross, so that without the cross killing Him, the blood and the water signifying His death on the cross, for out of Him came both water and blood proving His death, there would be no forgiveness and the OT saints were not completely perfected, they had to wait in paradise in hell till Christ came as their savior and deliverer.

1 John 5:6
This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

Hebrews 9:22
And by the law almost all things are purged with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

The OT sacrifices were only for the people of God, not the world, not for those who had no covenantal relationship with God, not for 'heathen' not for the profane, not for the other nations.

God in the NT has included the gentiles to be a part of His kingdom, key to this is in v14 where it is God who has chosen out from among the gentiles a people for His name, but not all of the gentiles since not all gentiles are saved, but only those God has taken for Himself, only they have the atonement of their sins.

Acts 15:13-1721st Century King James Version (KJ21)
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, hearken unto me.

14 Simon hath declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out from them a people for His name.

15 And to this agree the words of the Prophets, as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down. And I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up,

17 that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name is called, saith the Lord who doeth all these things.’

 

[sdowney717]

Tell me, surely you know, could anyone be born again as Christ describes in the New Covenant before the first coming, death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Tell me, surely you know, could anyone be born again as Christ describes in the New Covenant before the first coming, death and resurrection of Christ.

Well, OT believers such as prophets like David had the Holy Spirit:
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)

 

[Maxelcat]

You know I have always wondered about that question Sdowney71. I just pose it as a question but is having the Holy Spirit the same as being 'saved'? So was salvation open to the 'normal' person who wasn't a Jewish 'Priest, Prophet or King?' I would suggest that whilst salvation is only through Christ, that to suggest it is only available from the time that Jesus was incarnate onwards is an error. And it also depends how you understand the idea of 'original sin' It would seem to me that if God is merciful and good and just (which is claimed - clearly) then there has to be provision and that in turn suggests that our understanding of the atonement is itself too limited. We are, as someone once suggested, looking in a mirror (and mirrors in those days weren't as we know them now!)

 

[Maxelcat]

h

 

[Maxelcat]

Hello Maxelcat, and welcome to CF, and to Traditional Theology! We are glad that you've joined us.

I have to agree, I found the same thing when I started looking into more traditional views and comparing what I had previously been taught with Scripture. There is much more going on, and it encompasses all of Christ's life, than what I had once thought.

Again, welcome to CF. If you need any help finding your way around, please let us know and we will be glad to help.

I love your footer - is it yours???!!!! As a somewhat increasingly 'ex-evangelical' I find that sort of statement about cure and asceticism deeply appealing (though I'd like to include mysticism too - a la Gregory) How much do we need to recover these things

 

[rturner76]

The question then would be, how is atonement (including by animals) shown to be that of paying a debt? You mean as in satisfying the demands of justice?

I have highlighted the slight difference in our view in these quotes.

Satisfaction Theory: God's offended honor and dignity could only be satisfied by the sacrifice of the God-man, Jesus Christ.

Penal Substitution Theory: Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law:

As you can see there is no doubt Christ has paid our debt to justice. It's just different view of what that debt is

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Interesting question and discussion. I recently had to write a piece comparing the Orthodox/Western views of the atonement as expressed by Gregory of Nyssa and Augustine. I think it comes down their being many and varied accomplishments/effects from the WHOLE of the life of Jesus from incarnation, participation through to crucifixion and resurrection and onto now and into eternity. Interesting, the churches I have been around only really every mentioned the 'judicial debt we owed' stance - and the more I look at this, the less prominent I see that is is in scripture.

There is no one easy answer. That's part of the mystery, wonder and the beauty of it.

Well, what we can see is that the atonement required:

► The placing of sins upon the object making atonement:

• And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:21,22)

• All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)

• So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28)

• Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

• For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

► The shedding of blood in death:

• For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Leviticus 17:11)

• And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Hebrews 9:22) (forgiveness was given without presently offering an atonement, and atonement was made for sins by other things than blood, but which was done under the rubric of the mandated yearly Day of Atonement with its scapegoat and blood atonement, which in turn was done under the program that culminated in the final perfect sacrifice of the unblemished Christ, which the Day of Atonement prefigured.)

• And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. (Leviticus 16:14-17)

• But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

• And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelation 1:5)

► A sacrifice which has no inherent defilement or actual guilt themselves:

• Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: (Exodus 12:5)

• But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:19)

• Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: (1 Peter 2:22)

• And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:.. (Daniel 9:26)

• And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8:29)

• For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; (Hebrews 7:26)

► A perfect one time sacrifice that would give himself as an offering to God for sin:

• But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord. (Leviticus 1:9)

• And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. (Ephesians 5:2)

• Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. (Isaiah 53:10)

• No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:18)

• Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

• So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28)

• When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19:30)

• For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)

► Which atonement would be for the whole world (but its salvific benefits only appropriated by those who believe with effectual faith):

• And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

• Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Timothy 2:6)

• And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5:15)

• He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

► Which perfect righteous atonement would be confirmed as being so by His resurrection:

• Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (Acts 2:24)

• Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:31)

• And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: (Romans 1:4)

• The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory. (Psalms 97:6)

► And which would enable God to be just, and yet merciful:

• He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (Isaiah 53:11)

• Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:25-26)

► Which enables souls to be justified by effectual faith:

• Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:38-39)

• To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

• And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)

• For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:3-5)

• We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; (2 Corinthians 4:13)

• That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. (Romans 10:9-12)

• Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38-39)

 

[Maxelcat]

I don't think I am saying there is no element as you describe. I think I am saying that penal substitution is not the only valid way of looking at the atonement. One can go round and around with the argument. I just came to the conclusion that the 'my debt was paid' isn't the only valid way. Different sides of the same thing - and given God's infinity, how can we fully expect to understand it? The penal substitution argument leaves many questions too.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I have highlighted the slight difference in our view in these quotes.





As you can see there is no doubt Christ has paid our debt to justice. It's just different view of what that debt is

I read your earlier posts as well and while I understand your reaction to your experience with Penal Substitution, my understanding of this doctrine is different and not that different from Ransom. Nor do I find a particular difficulty with the debt language.

I understand Penal Substitution this way. Sin separates us from a full relationship with God. Thus separated from God, the source and author of life, without any positive action from him we are dead. Relegated to destruction by the inherent penalty of our own action. Having no life in us and rightly deserving God's displeasure and destruction. We cannot return to him for he is wholly just and righteous--it would destroy us. He cannot just overlook our unrighteousness and rejoin us--it would destroy us. The Son, out of the great love that God has for us, became flesh. He maintained his human relationship with God, he did not become unrighteous, he did not seek to become his own God, etc. But, he suffered death anyway--an unjust death. God cannot be unjust. Because Christ, who was blameless, spotless, and righteous, died, it would be unjust to exact punishment again. In essence, the Son says, "my punishment is enough" and the Father agrees.

The Father did not insist that someone be punished for Man's sin. Christ willing became Man to rescue us from the pit we made for ourselves. But the demands of justice and righteousness required death, a debt he paid.

This point of view can be seen in Paul, in Anselm, in Julian of Norwich, in the Reformers, in Lewis, and others, but the mystery of it all is actually beyond us and we can't see or grasp it clearly. Human concepts of justice, debts, penal systems, etc aren't quite up to the task.

Ultimately, I think most of the atonement theories have part of the whole--but all are insufficient alone.