What is Wrong with going to Church?

[discernomatic]

Discernomatic:

I'm trying to get hold of this. I agree that our life displays our worship...and who we worship. But all these things that we DO can so easily become just actions....I'm trying to put all this into the context of what the Lord means by worship. What does HE expect? Of course He's looking at our every day activities...but scripture seems to be referring to something different here. There was a service of worship performed..no? Help me here.

What I have understood worship to be is that specific time we plug into His presence. I believe that He is always here...but we are not always plugged into him...rather just doing things....maybe good things too...but we can become distracted away from HIM in them. You know, "..the work of the Lord coming before the Lord of the work." (Chip Brogden) At least that's what I have struggle with. I want to be alive and aware of His presence...in and around me...communicating ...24/7. And it ain't gonna happen by my will power. I have this desire and I offer it up to Him to make it be.

There was true revival happening here in the states in the late 90s and I did begin to experience Him in these large "worship" services. These worship services did revolve around singing...so it gets confusing here.Then His presence lifted and we had to make some descisions...and many just fell away. And I don't mean they fell away from those church services...many fell AWAY. I fell deeper into Him. I find THERE IS NO WHERE ELSE TO GO.

Some of us are becoming aware of the fallacies that were taught. God is good to do this for us. I want to get things straight by looking to the Word to make sure that what we adhere to NOW is correct.

Q

I think I see where you are coming from. But how do you perceive His presence? I have been present at revival meetings, crusades and the like, but though I did feel a presence in those places many times, I realized that it was not the same presence I perceived when I was born-again. After years of being misled by false doctrine propagated at those crusades and revivals, I had to go back to that moment to see what had blinded me all those years.

There are a few possibilities as to what happened.

The presence I felt at those meetings was caused by a state of euphoria that can come through an extended praise and worship service, especially one where the songs have relatively little Scripture in them. They go something like, "I praise you, I worship you, I need your presence....". Often such songs are repeated over and over. This can cause an emotional and even physical euphoria, a sort of high, and can be addictive like a drug. I found it to be addictive.

Or the presence I felt was caused by a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, addictive feelings also included here.

Either way, I realized after much going after spiritual experiences, that "feeling" God was not necessary, but knowing Him is. That was when I hit the Scriptures and prayer to really get to know Him. That has brought more fruit in a relatively short time than the whole time I was trying to be in, find, get into what I thought was His presence.

Funny thing is that hardly anyone that had sung, danced, felt euphoric, "fell down in the spirit", felt a presence, spoke in a tongue, prophesied, sang in a tongue.....really felt compelled to go out and witness afterward. The day of Pentecost was not relived. Cards were collected and it was said that so-and-so-many had "made a decision for Christ" but it always fizzled out. If it happened in the morning, everyone went home to lunch. If it happened in the evening, everyone went home to bed. That was a big piece of proof for me that God was not to be found there, that the presence felt there was not Him. Too many are too familiar with that pattern of "revival" to question it.

Maybe you got closer to God in spite of the revival, rather than because of it. God was working to get you closer to Him, as He was me, but despite the false revival. The emptiness that I felt after years of chasing ghosts drove me to Him, too, (not to mention a "spanking" he gave me). It could be that some were saved at those revivals, too, but again, despite the message rather than because of it.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Discern: I have experienced many of the things you describe in your post, some personally and some by observation. What about Long Suffering? Are we not to endeavour to persevere? Are we not guaranteed persecution and false prophets? Should we not stand and have a voice against wrong doings inside the organization. Give our young people a living physical example of your signature? My heart aches and sees the current trend as the beginning of the "great falling away".

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I'm interested in what you say here about the Biblical concept of order. Maybe I've got it wrong...please share. I'm a Berean...you have to use scripture.

Q

When Paul spoke of order, concerning the gathering of believers, in his epistle, he was addressing it in relation to outright chaos...everyone speaking at once. No gathering could get anywhere in such a setting.

Institutionalism, however, pushed this concept far beyond the comparative use Paul was applying. Organized religion took this as meaning that you sit in that pew, participating passively, and only on cue, without speaking directly to anyone else to comfort and edify them. It became a tool by which you and most everyone else are subjected to a stringent program that denies you the spiritual heritage into which we have all been grafted.

Order...yes. Control...NO! Silence...NO! If the Lord abides in the praises of His people, then our silence is very uninviting. I'm not talking about singing hymns. Anyone can do that, even outside the gathering. The early Church had one or two up on us today. They came together, edified one another in an orderly fassion, each believer functioning within the arena of each one's giftings, and then edified people gave praise and glory to the Lord. In other words, He was welcome from start to finish.

This idea that the minister is to dominate the gathering with his service agenda, and to lecture, sermonize every meeting, etc., etc., is completely foreign to the scriptures. The order that is practiced within churchianity is also completely foreign to the scriptures, especially in light of the fact that we are ALL priests unto and ambassadors for the Most High. There was once an organization of about 3,000 people of which I am aware, where the people edified one another, prayed for one another, and fellowshiped with one another to a far greater depth than any other institution I have ever seen. The "pastor" figurehead [any one of the many elders] only spoke a message when the Lord truly laid it upon one of their hearts. They were not of those phoneys who had to prepare each week for his rheorical, Aristotilian speeches. It was powerful, to the point, and truly organic rather than contrived through rehearsal. Their gatherings sometimes ran from noon till as late as midnight on some Sundays, with all kinds of food on hand for when they got hungry. They had something wonderful...at one time.

The enemy, however, got his way. It's just too bad that some wolves in sheep's clothing came in and successfully wiped it all out. That group is now just as institutional and stiffled as any other. Many left, and other religionists came in to fill their places. Those newcomers were not new converts. They were migrants, malcontents from other organizations who wanted to get in on the ground floor of a new organization and be a part of the inner "clique."

Please pardon my rambling...

BTW

 

[Qidron]

Discern...The only thing I know is that The Lord used that time to revive a lot of people, including me. I don't regret any of it even though there was definitely some strange fire happening. Whatever was wrong in that congregation is still falling apart and whatever was right stayed in the hearts...as they moved on.

And whenever we encounter the HOLY Spirit...it IS in spite of what man tries to do to accomplish this. So, I ain't worried about the controls men try to put on the move of God. He still works with whatever we give Him.

As for WORSHIP....Good Works do not equal worship. First the heart has to be one with God and then whatever of our lives we pour out is also worship, and yeah, that happens wherever we are. At some point JESUS will pull his Body together. It just hasn't happened yet and is not a work man can accomplish. It's a Spirit thing. Meanwhile we trust Him for every move we make.

Q

 

[Qidron]

When Paul spoke of order, concerning the gathering of believers, in his epistle, he was addressing it in relation to outright chaos...everyone speaking at once. No gathering could get anywhere in such a setting.

BTW

Well, that is what I've understood order and disorder to be. It's what goes on in my house. Wish I could bring an end to that....

Anyway, thanks and I did appreciate everything else you wrote. Not a ramble to me. One thing you mentioned was the pastors dominating the services...not only is that not in scripture, but it's too hard on those men as well. Little kingdoms. It is not what God intended. I so desire a fellowship where we will share with one another all the Lord speaks to us during the week. How wonderful that would be.

Q

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Anyway, thanks and I did appreciate everything else you wrote.

And thank you for your posts.

Not a ramble to me. One thing you mentioned was the pastors dominating the services...not only is that not in scripture, but it's too hard on those men as well.

Absolutely.

Little kingdoms. It is not what God intended. I so desire a fellowship where we will share with one another all the Lord speaks to us during the week. How wonderful that would be.

It's in your grasp. Start something in your home, and leave your Bibles on a talbe somewhere out of reach, and just get to know one another, search out each other's needs, pray for one another, and then, if there's time and energy, crack the Bibles open. I say this because Bibles studies can be enjoyed anywhere and anytime people want. Ecourage one another to become immersed in the word of God so that each has something of substance to bring in each week.

BTW

 

[Qidron]

And thank you for your posts.



Absolutely.



It's in your grasp. Start something in your home, and leave your Bibles on a talbe somewhere out of reach, and just get to know one another, search out each other's needs, pray for one another, and then, if there's time and energy, crack the Bibles open. I say this because Bibles studies can be enjoyed anywhere and anytime people want. Ecourage one another to become immersed in the word of God so that each has something of substance to bring in each week.

BTW

I think I understand. It seems simple enough. Except for the PEOPLE part. But I will begin at the beginning. My heart opens to it and He draws people in and shows them to me. Let's go Lord.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I think I understand. It seems simple enough. Except for the PEOPLE part. But I will begin at the beginning. My heart opens to it and He draws people in and shows them to me. Let's go Lord.

Oh, believe me when I say that I fully understand the "people" issue. Been there, done that. The two main issues I have experienced with the people factor are:

1) Getting them to give up on their religiousness, leave it outside on the doorstep, and pick it up on their way out, and

2) The severe lack of genuine commitment. Almost anything else will take top priority to most of the people rather than being at the gathering on a regular basis, ON TIME.

It's pretty much a given that, since studying the word of God is of such little value to most, that this mentality spills over into a direct outplay of the level of commitment they have to getting to a gathering where they can be filled. Oh, if there's a crisis in their lives that has profound emotional impact upon them, they'll be there, and early for the prayers they covet, but when they are fed, fat, warm and happy, the bluegrass music festival simply ranks as the more important priority. Never mind that someone may need them who is at the meeting. The implications of this are they tend to show that the rudiments of institutionalism are indeed powerful. Within institutionalism, each member mostly lacks functional importance for them to attend each time the gathering is in session. When they are expected to attend only as a passive member, and plop their money into the passing plate, well, their importance is less imperative as compared to a small, intimate group who has an enormously greater need for each member present and functional.

BTW

 

[Qidron]

...Oh, if there's a crisis in their lives that has profound emotional impact upon them, they'll be there, and early for the prayers they covet...

BTW

Well then I guess the Lord will just have to provide a profound emotional impact on our lives. And I'm sure He will.

Q

 

[New_Wineskin]

Oh, believe me when I say that I fully understand the "people" issue. Been there, done that. The two main issues I have experienced with the people factor are:

1) Getting them to give up on their religiousness, leave it outside on the doorstep, and pick it up on their way out, and

2) The severe lack of genuine commitment. Almost anything else will take top priority to most of the people rather than being at the gathering on a regular basis, ON TIME.

It's pretty much a given that, since studying the word of God is of such little value to most, that this mentality spills over into a direct outplay of the level of commitment they have to getting to a gathering where they can be filled. Oh, if there's a crisis in their lives that has profound emotional impact upon them, they'll be there, and early for the prayers they covet, but when they are fed, fat, warm and happy, the bluegrass music festival simply ranks as the more important priority. Never mind that someone may need them who is at the meeting. The implications of this are they tend to show that the rudiments of institutionalism are indeed powerful. Within institutionalism, each member mostly lacks functional importance for them to attend each time the gathering is in session. When they are expected to attend only as a passive member, and plop their money into the passing plate, well, their importance is less imperative as compared to a small, intimate group who has an enormously greater need for each member present and functional.

BTW

Wow . Talking about the point of the thread and your point on religiousness , your post gives me good examples of both . Your issue #2 combined with your explanation after that is very religious to me . "Commitment" to a group or scheduled meetings religious and one of my points on "What is wrong with going to church ?" . I find the point to be hypocritical in that committment to a singular group is contrary to the "do not forsake" law people put out there for obtaining righteousness .

A meeting that has a specific agenda and everything must be performed on time with everyone there are other points that I have to answer the question of the thread title . You bring up another one with your statements concerning the Scriptures . If people aren't reading them on their own , they already have little value in a group setting . If they are reading them on their own , there is no need for them in a group setting .

I would say that the idea of necessity of being at every meeting ( or even regular attendance ) and for the whole meeting of a specific group is the main idea of institutionalism .

Having said that ( and I wanted to say more ) , I completely understand that you have specific desires for how you fellowship . That's fine . However , you wanting others to have the same desires is showing that you are not following step 1) . If everyone has the same mentality at the formation of the group , I would think that would be great .

Edited to add : My desire is that this post was not percievd as accusatory . I was attempting to give my thoughts on certain concepts .

 

[Qidron]

Personally...if I am led to open my home for a gathering to share what the Lord shows those He calls....I will do that regardless of who shows up. It don't matter none to me if they don't come...it ain't MY party. One thing I know is that if the Lord wants to build something IT WILL GET BUILT. So I intend to just start...I'm beginning to feel His nudge. Nothing else we get me moving anyway....and I have a husband who'd have to hear the same thing.

Q

 

[New_Wineskin]

Personally...if I am led to open my home for a gathering to share what the Lord shows those He calls....I will do that regardless of who shows up. It don't matter none to me if they don't come...it ain't MY party. One thing I know is that if the Lord wants to build something IT WILL GET BUILT. So I intend to just start...I'm beginning to feel His nudge. Nothing else we get me moving anyway....and I have a husband who'd have to hear the same thing.

Q

That is a great way of looking at it .

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Wow . Talking about the point of the thread and your point on religiousness , your post gives me good examples of both . Your issue #2 combined with your explanation after that is very religious to me .

I'm not sure how you came to your conclusions, and I refuse to make any judgments without asking, but then you didn't ask me what I meant by my use of the term "commitment" before passing judgment of hypocrisy on my part. But, hey, you're entitled to your opinion and your judgments. I guess I'm as turquois as I can get once you paint me with such broad brush strokes.

Edited to add : My desire is that this post was not percievd as accusatory . I was attempting to give my thoughts on certain concepts .

If the label of being hypocritical isn't accusatory, then your dictionary must have a whole different set of definitions for key words.

You appear to be the only one who came to the conclusion that my use of commitment was at all within the realm of the sense of strict conformity to some preconceived plan, agenda, schedule, flow of religious entitlement, etc., etc.

Whatever.....

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Personally...if I am led to open my home for a gathering to share what the Lord shows those He calls....I will do that regardless of who shows up. It don't matter none to me if they don't come...it ain't MY party. One thing I know is that if the Lord wants to build something IT WILL GET BUILT. So I intend to just start...I'm beginning to feel His nudge. Nothing else we get me moving anyway....and I have a husband who'd have to hear the same thing.

Q

Well, at least you got my point without trying to nail me to the tree of religious entitlement.

I like your attitude. It says, "The Lord's in charge, and He alone will make this a success since my flesh is weak and incapable in itself."

What wine-licker missed is that institutionalism tends to try and mix both together with the idea that program is the vehicle with God pushing from behind. Well, the Lord isn't any vehicle's engine. He does all at His good pleasure. The problem for most is finding that realm of the Lord's pleasure and keeping one's feet in that realm alone.

BTW

 

[New_Wineskin]

Whatever.....

BTW

ditto ...

 

[PlanN2WalkONwata]

Something I have learned... I fellowship at home and in the homes of other believers... so that should tell you where I stand I guess... but at the same time... through my studies... and through prayers... I cannot condemn the institutional church... there are a lot of people that would never open up to Christ except for the institutional church... and from there their hearts are opened more and more and more of God's wisdom is poured in. The Lord shows and leads His children where He wants them. So for many, the institutional church may be where it not only starts, but where it ends... but for others... it may start there and continue much further. Yes, I do fellowship at home... but I would be ignorant if I even thought that what I'm doing is COMPLETELY correct to the true form of fellowship the Lord truly desires. Truth is, we're all so completely drenched in society and tradition (believe it or not we are... if you want to know more PM me)... that it may take generations before the Lord might be able to turn us into the church he intended us to be... if we can ever become that on this earth... There's a quote (I might mess it up a little... so forgive me if I do... and please correct me if I'm wrong)
"The city is built
To music, therefore never built at all,
And therefore built for ever." - Lord, Alfred Tennyson
I liken this to the body of Christ or the perfect church
We were "built" to do the will of God...
But because we are flesh, we will never completely fulfill the will of God... we will always fail Him somewhere along the line... (therefore the perfect church doesn't exist)
But b/c we will continuously strive to be what the Lord wants us to be... and STRIVE to BE that perfect church... it will exist forever.
All we can do is open our hearts and our ears to the Lord, and then place all our trust and faith in Him and do what He asks of us.
(ACK... sorry if I'm completley off course lol)

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Of course you can condemn the institutional church. It is full of humans after all! But that's not the proper way!

I was watching some stuff on TV yesterday (Sunday) showing some church meeting or other and it finally hit me... what they are promoting has absolutely no appeal to me anymore!!!! I mean it's not just a style issue, it'sthe worldview. They want a "come to us and we'll give you the answer" christianity, where as I want to find Jesus in and with the World, who are my church.

 

[PlanN2WalkONwata]

i cannot condemn... i can say that it is not RIGHT for ME... the Lord has convicted me of it... but it may not be wrong for somebody the Lord has placed there for a season

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I cannot condemn the institutional church... there are a lot of people that would never open up to Christ except for the institutional church...

I agree that it's not right to condemn institutionalism outright with a blanket condemnation. However, to say the Lord could not reach some people except through the use of institutionalism is to utter a level of authority that none of us has. Institutionalism is a tool, and a good one when used properly.

Yes, I do fellowship at home... but I would be ignorant if I even thought that what I'm doing is COMPLETELY correct to the true form of fellowship the Lord truly desires.

Fellowship comes in many different forms, depending on the situation people are in. Some POW's in enemy prison camps used morse code to share information and to fellowship and strengthen one another in Christ. So, yes, fellowship can be expressed in a number of ways. With Christ at its center, it is powerful and pure.

Truth is, we're all so completely drenched in society and tradition (believe it or not we are... if you want to know more PM me)... that it may take generations before the Lord might be able to turn us into the church he intended us to be... if we can ever become that on this earth...

Well, He has allowed the institutional form to continue all these centuries........perhaqps to let it be the acid test for those who erroneously think that the antiquity of institutionalism automaticallt bestows upon itself God's seal of approval. He does have a sense of humor...obviously.

BTW

 

[New_Wineskin]

I was watching some stuff on TV yesterday (Sunday) showing some church meeting or other and it finally hit me... what they are promoting has absolutely no appeal to me anymore!!!! I mean it's not just a style issue, it'sthe worldview. They want a "come to us and we'll give you the answer" christianity,...

Yes . I agree with this part .