What is Wrong with going to Church?

[BeforeThereWas]

Everyone can believe what they want, but personally, I will put as much distance as I can between me and a congregation that has accepted creation science as sound religious doctrine and scientific fact.

This does say something. I tend to shy away from almost everything that gains popular acceptance by the institutionas, because if they embrace it wholeheartedly, then there is usually something wrong with at least some of its defining construct.

BTW

 

[strikerchris0411]

This does say something. I tend to shy away from almost everything that gains popular acceptance by the institutionas, because if they embrace it wholeheartedly, then there is usually something wrong with at least some of its defining construct.

BTW

Why?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

A good example is PK. Organizations all over the country cast themselves headlong into supporting it and starting their own branch of that philosophy with thier men. PK started out with a good idea, but there were philosophical and theologcial elements within the thinking of its defining leadership that is disturbing to anyone who accepts God's word as authoritative. Some institutions refused to accept these false teachings that eminated from PK, and were, sadly, looked down upon. I applaud those who refused to support PK and developed their own programs that are more consistent with biblical teachings.

Mainstream religion tends to buy into things that subtly ignore scriptural teachings that run counter to cultural sway. When called onto the carpet for their inconsistency with biblical teachings, they generally have meaningless, long-winded explanations, and sometimes even go so far as to pit God's word against itself.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

On the lighter side of things, here are some humorous letters to God, from kids of various ages, who were allowed to write their notes on the walls of their Sunday school classrooms for all to...enjoy:

Each one starts with "Dear God," so I will leave that out for the sake of space:

Are you really invisible, or is that a trick? Lucy

I want to be just like my Daddy when I get big but not with so much hair all over. Sam

Did you mean for giraffe to look like that or was it an accident. Norma

I keep waiting for spring but it never comes yet. Don't forget. Mark

You don't have to worry about me. I always look both ways. Dean

Instead of Letting people die and having to Make new ones, Why don't you just Keep the ones you got now? Jane

I went to this wedding, and they kissed right in church. Is that ok? Neil

I think the stapler is one of your greatest invention - Ruth M.

In bible times did they really talk that fancy? Jennifer

I think about you sometimes even whem I'm not praying. Elliot

I am American what are you? Robert

I bet it is very hard for you to love all of every body in the whole world There are only 4 people in our family and I can never do it. Nan

Thank you for the baby brother but I prayed for a puppy - Joyce

Please put a-nother holiday between Christmas and Easter. There is nothing good in there now. Ginny

If you watch in Church on Sunday I will show you my new shoes - Mickey D.

We - come - back - as - something - please - don't let - me - be Jennifer - Horton because - I - hate her. Denise

I WOULD LIKE TOO LIVE 900 YEARS LIKE THE GUY IN THE BIBLE - LOVE, CHRIS

We read thos. Edison made light. But in Sun. School they said you did it. So I bet he stolted your idea. Sincerly, Donna

If you give me Genie laml like Alladin I will give you anything you want except my money or my chess set. Raphael

If you let the dinasor not extinct we would not have a country. You did the right thing. Jonathan

Please send Dennis Clark to a different camp this year. Peter

I do not think anybody could be a better God. Well I just want you to know but I am not just saying that because you are God. Charles

Maybe Cain and Abel would not kill so much if they had their own rooms. It works with my brothers. Larry

BTW

 

[strikerchris0411]

A good example is PK. Organizations all over the country cast themselves headlong into supporting it and starting their own branch of that philosophy with thier men. PK started out with a good idea, but there were philosophical and theologcial elements within the thinking of its defining leadership that is disturbing to anyone who accepts God's word as authoritative. Some institutions refused to accept these false teachings that eminated from PK, and were, sadly, looked down upon. I applaud those who refused to support PK and developed their own programs that are more consistent with biblical teachings.

Mainstream religion tends to buy into things that subtly ignore scriptural teachings that run counter to cultural sway. When called onto the carpet for their inconsistency with biblical teachings, they generally have meaningless, long-winded explanations, and sometimes even go so far as to pit God's word against itself.

BTW

You cannot say that about all of it though

 

[GraceMan]

The church is the Body of Christ, which means you and me and our christian neighbors. Now, if you are talking about a church building, that is a place that I don't like to go to because what the leaders of that building talk about mostly is legalism. The christian is not under the law and never has been (as it were in the old testament days). These are the days of grace. You can't mix law with grace.

Read:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

~G-Man

 

[Qidron]

The church is the Body of Christ, which means you and me and our christian neighbors. Now, if you are talking about a church building, that is a place that I don't like to go to because what the leaders of that building talk about mostly is legalism. The christian is not under the law and never has been (as it were in the old testament days). These are the days of grace. You can't mix law with grace.

Read:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

~G-Man

I didn't see legalism as the problem at the "building" congregations. At least it didn't seem like we were being taught to do things to get salvation kudos....it might have been insinuated however. I'll have to think about that.

I do however see a problem with the meaning of the term legalism. There were those who cried "legalism!" in order to do whatever they wanted. Like crying rape just to divert attention from oneself and throw everyone in a tizzy about who they were pointing at. A jezabel spirit infecting a person is really good at this.

Some would throw out anything OT and say it was all legalism. The OT wasn't legalistic, it always pointed to the messiah for salvation. "Man HAS to obey the Law...man CANNOT obey the Law... therefore man deserves death...so God sent His son to die in our place....want a ticket? Follow Jesus, He is the Way, the Truth and the Life."

What the Law could not do, Jesus DID. HE IS THE GRACE WE ARE UNDER. If we are not under the sentence of the Law...that's why...not that the law was obliterated.

If we leave a fellowship because someone requires us to agree to and to adhere to God's way...then we have to look at where our allegiance lies...with God..or in getting our own way.

As for the "building" congregations...I think as soon as a group gets a building they get all wound up in the keeping up of the building...like a housewife who is more interested in the condition of her house than the condition of her heart.

Qidron

 

[BeforeThereWas]

You cannot say that about all of it though

That's why I used words like "tend", which keeps my statements from being taken as blanket statements.

BTW

 

[discernomatic]

That's why I used words like "tend", which keeps my statements from being taken as blanket statements.

I do that too.

I agree with your reasoning about popular spiritual trends and mainstream churches. Even emerging churches and house churches can have the same problems too.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I didn't see legalism as the problem at the "building" congregations. At least it didn't seem like we were being taught to do things to get salvation kudos....it might have been insinuated however. I'll have to think about that.

Many groups insinuate it and only insinuate it . They know that they cannot outright say that it is for salvation . Nowadays , I hear them say , "It isn't about works , it is about *obedience* " . That , of course , is double-talk . That is precisely what the Jewish believers were saying to the Gentile believers . Paul says otherwise .

As for the "building" congregations...I think as soon as a group gets a building they get all wound up in the keeping up of the building...like a housewife who is more interested in the condition of her house than the condition of her heart.

Qidron

Definitely . I wouldn't be surprised that the building maintainence is a major reason why the doctrines of tithing and church membership came about . They saw a need to lock people into the group and then demand a weekly membership fee to pay for the possessions .

 

[Qidron]

Concerning "legalism" I remember talking to one young girl in the congregation who had stopped attending. I asked what was wrong and she said that she was expected to be perfect and never sin, that the place was full of hypocrites and she couldn't handle that.
Now, was she saying that she was a sinner saved by grace, or was she saying she was a sinner...leave me alone...? OR was the insinuated message going out that she had to be sinless to please GOD..or was it simply to please the ppl at that church? Whatever it was, she never went back there. But then, I don't go there any more either.

Qidron

 

[New_Wineskin]

Well , here is a typical legalism ... "you must go to church" . "Must" ? "Have to" ? "Should" ?

It insinuates that salvation is maintained only if one goes to "church" .

 

[Qidron]

Well , here is a typical legalism ... "you must go to church" . "Must" ? "Have to" ? "Should" ?

It insinuates that salvation is maintained only if one goes to "church" .

I always figured that had to do with the scripture that says
Heb 10:25 We should not stop gathering together with other believers, as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even more as we see the day of the Lord coming.


Depending on the heart of the hearer..."must" could have to do with salvation. But we ought to know better, if we read the Word. Dontcha think? Guess that's why I never picked that up...but youre right..they certainly might have been saying that...it just never got to me.

Q

 

[strikerchris0411]

I always figured that had to do with the scripture that says
Heb 10:25 We should not stop gathering together with other believers, as some of you are doing. Instead, we must continue to encourage each other even more as we see the day of the Lord coming.

ok i encourage you to go to church, well the same churches tha5t were written in biblical days. Oh there are none

 

[BeforeThereWas]

popular spiritual trends and mainstream churches. Even emerging churches and house churches can have the same problems too.

Absolutely. It's people who bring inferior concepts into any group setting. That's why it's so difficult to find a home group that doesn't have the usual religious bone of institutionalism still protruding from the brokenness of their ability to function as spiritual giants.

BTW

 

[newday]

I come here to read threads alot but I don't post much.

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.
My husband and I and a few others have decided to participate in a home church at our home.
I have not turned my back on God nor His precious Son Jesus.
I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.
When it is all over and I have to stand before God ALL BY MYSELF, I only have to answer for what I believed and what I said and done in my body.
I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.
I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.
I am not the judge. Thank God!
Glad to be here with you all.
Newday

 

[Qidron]

I come here to read threads alot but I don't post much.

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.
My husband and I and a few others have decided to participate in a home church at our home.
I have not turned my back on God nor His precious Son Jesus.
I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.
When it is all over and I have to stand before God ALL BY MYSELF, I only have to answer for what I believed and what I said and done in my body.
I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.
I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.
I am not the judge. Thank God!
Glad to be here with you all.
Newday

And you are most welcome NewDay.

I understand what you say about extending grace and allowing people to be who they are, without requiring them to do differently than they have chosen. What I have experienced is that if those people are wicked at heart, they will require YOU to change...so stand firm in what the Lord gives you in this new day.

Qidron

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I live in a very traditional city. The idea of "home church" means that you are "off" and not "hearing from God correctly."
That's just how it is.

Yeah! That's the way I like. I don't like hearing from the insitutional god, because that gets in the way of hearing God.

I just no longer choose to follow and live by man's traditions.
My eyes have finally been opened to see that there is only one that I have to please and that is my Father in Heaven.

Not even Jesus was able to please men, so it's an exercise in utter futility for institutional religion to think that its people can do what even the Lord of Glory Himself was not able to accomplish.

I don't talk negatively about my other brothers and sisters in Christ.

I do! Heh heh. It's fun. That way I can make myself look better. Maybe it doesn't work with the Lord, but it sure has its advantages here on earth...

Hey! Just kidding. Actually, Jesus commanded that we judge NOT according to the appearance, but to judge righteous judgment. Does that mean that we at times must level a judgment against one who professes Christ who is acting or teaching inappropriately, or some other outplay of fallen humanity? Most who post here speak in general rather than using specific names, unless it's someone like Benny Hinn and his antics. Some like to ask how anyone could "tyouch God's annointed?". Quite frankly, I want to know how those people gained a knowledge that Benny Hinn is God's annointed? What evidence is there of such? Aren't we all annointed who are in Christ? These little tidbits used as a means of derailing others who have the courage to call a spade a spade serve only to try and gain the upper hand in defense of those who are not worthy.

I read a book that helped me so much called the "Grace Awakening."
I can extended people the grace to be who they are and where they are without judging them and telling them they are off or have to do things a certain way.

What a tragic book (from what you have said thus far). It defies the very teaching of Christ in this regard. Even unbelievers know that verse "Judge not..." Well, people who recite that as wrote generally have no depth to their understanding. Jesus doesn't want us "...as we are..." He said quite plainly, "If you love me, keep my commandments." If we are to edify one another, that doesn't mean that we sit back and refrain from spurring one another to greater heights, and even having to get into one another's face, just as Paul did with Peter.

I am not the judge.

We are judges, just not of the calibre of the Lord. We do not judge in the place of the Lord. We do not judge another's ultimate destination in eternity, for we have no such knowledge. We judge according to the standard of God's righteousness. That book pulls out from under the feet of those who follow its teachings the very authority (although limited) we have been given by the Lord. If we are His ambassadors, His emissaries, then refusal to serve in that capacity is a denial of the very heritage to which we have been called. We MUST spur one another on to righteousness. I sometimes need a swift kick in the kiester for my error. I expect it. Those who refuse to honor me with such a kick are dishonoring not only myself, but themselves and the Lord.

Glad to be here with you all.

Me too. Loving one another means that we somtimes must do the unsavory in this fallen world of ours.

BTW

 

[If Not For Grace]

Where I am from Home Church/School also has a negative connotation it = those who could not cut learning in a traditional setting. These are often seen as eclectic or geeks or special needs persons, or at best "drop outs".

 

[Qidron]

Where I am from Home Church/School also has a negative connotation it = those who could not cut learning in a traditional setting. These are often seen as eclectic or geeks or special needs persons, or at best "drop outs".

I've heard the same thing said about the folks who hang around internet forums. If that's what it takes to break away from the maddening crowd...okedoke...then ima Special Needs person.

the QID