What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

The Pharisees made the Laws more specific, so they wouldn't fail to keep them. Repentance was not among them. How do I know? (Could I be wrong? I don't think so, but possibly) Because it's not in the Mosaic Law, so the Pharisees would have no reason to pretend it was in there to make it more specific. Also when Paul says works of the Law, I'm pretty sure he means the Mosaic Law (could even say it's obvious, since that is what he is referring to all through the letter), not some made up law by the Pharisees.

Hm, haven't you made up on your own authority that repentance is a work? Can you biblically demonstrate it is? I haven't made it up, it's not in the Law, so how could it be a work of the Law? I have yet to see the Bible refer to repentance as a work.

An act of the will is a work. But, being a work does not make it faithless, anymore than the act of the will in 'accepting Christ' makes it faithless. What it does is make neither accepting Christ, nor repentance, the deciding factor in "salvation by grace through faith, not of works", and the cause of regeneration. Agreed, that repentance will occur —in fact, it must! But true repentance, while a work of the will, is also the work of the Spirit of God in us —the same Spirit that regenerated us.

I didn't say repentance was among works of the law, nor even among the works the Pharisees added to the law. My point in bringing up what the Pharisees did, is that it does not need to be law to be works. I did not say repentance is a work of the law. It seems to me more than obvious that what is done by the will of man is works. Thus, repentance, even if done through faith and through Christ and through the Holy Spirit, is still a work. And repentance, so called, done not by faith and not through Christ and not through the Spirit of God, is a work, too. And no, in case someone gets the notion that I am saying that Salvation is by works, since repentance is a work, that is not at all what I am saying.

Because you seem to say it shows we have to be regenerated before we can have faith. Even if you look at the whole chapter of Ephesians 2 (or Romans 3), there is nowhere where it says we are regenerated first. What it says is that we are saved by grace and grace doesn't mean we have no free will (libertarian) part in our salvation. Ephesians 2 doesn't say whether repentance comes before or after regeneration. We have to look at other passages.

Sure you can refer to "dead in sins". It's just that you will have a hard time to show it means what you say it means.

Those references talk about God making us alive, who were once dead. The dead cannot do anything.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"Acts 11:18, we read that “to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” And in 2 Timothy 2:25, Paul says that we must gently instruct those who oppose us in the hope that “God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.”

God granted repentance. It is the cleansing of the conscience by the Holy Spirit?

So repentance is automatic, man doesn't repent, it is a gift granted by God?
That is what I said before, it is an act of the Holy Spirit to cleanse or wash away sins, not man to cleanse himself of sin through the work of repentance, which man can't do or what is the point of Christ. Man could will himself sin free.

This is a little confusing. Can you restate? Among other things, I'm guessing your last sentence was meant to be, "Man couldn't will himself sin free.", or, "—after all, if man can cleanse himself, then man could will himself sin free."

 

[zoidar]

I have question I like to ask you guys. How does a Christian get a clean, pure heart?

 

[QvQ]

I have question I like to ask you guys. How does a Christian get a clean, pure heart?

Blessed are the pure in heart.
That is where I started, being an atheist, born and raised. To me, it was a simple desire to discover the Truth about God. Just curiosity, then intrigue, then a certainty It is still a "pure in heart" venture as my only goal, my only motivation is to know, love and serve God.
It doesn't have to do with sin for me. It doesn't have anything to do with gain or loss. It is a pure heart that seeks God for no reason other than to know God. And to know the truth about God. The more I know, the more I want to discover.
That is what "pure of heart" means to me. JMHO

 

[zoidar]

An act of the will is a work. But, being a work does not make it faithless, anymore than the act of the will in 'accepting Christ' makes it faithless. What it does is make neither accepting Christ, nor repentance, the deciding factor in "salvation by grace through faith, not of works", and the cause of regeneration. Agreed, that repentance will occur —in fact, it must! But true repentance, while a work of the will, is also the work of the Spirit of God in us —the same Spirit that regenerated us.

I didn't say repentance was among works of the law, nor even among the works the Pharisees added to the law. My point in bringing up what the Pharisees did, is that it does not need to be law to be works. I did not say repentance is a work of the law. It seems to me more than obvious that what is done by the will of man is works. Thus, repentance, even if done through faith and through Christ and through the Holy Spirit, is still a work. And repentance, so called, done not by faith and not through Christ and not through the Spirit of God, is a work, too. And no, in case someone gets the notion that I am saying that Salvation is by works, since repentance is a work, that is not at all what I am saying.

In the Bible a work is a deed you offer or abstain to earn righteous before God. Drinking milk or going fishing is not a work of the Law, since that has nothing to do with being righteous before God. Avoid stealing and giving money to the poor are things of the Law, since it has to with earning righteousness. Repentance/turning to God for forgiveness is not a work of the Law, since you ask for mercy, without offering any deed to earn righteousness.

That's my two cents.

Just because we do something, doesn't make it a work, from a biblical perspective.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have question I like to ask you guys. How does a Christian get a clean, pure heart?

Get? Or have? Or keep? Only by imputation of Christ's righteousness, and forgiveness of sins. Continued repentance and obedience by the power of the Spirit of God.

Thank God we are not as we assess ourselves, but as God's use for us and assessment of us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In the Bible a work is a deed you offer or abstain to earn righteous before God. Drinking milk or going fishing is not a work of the Law, since that has nothing to do with being righteous before God. Avoid stealing and giving money to the poor are things of the Law, since it has to with earning righteousness. Repentance/turning to God for forgiveness is not a work of the Law, since you ask for mercy, without offering any deed to earn righteousness.

That's my two cents.

Just because we do something, doesn't make it a work, from a biblical perspective.

You are referring to only one use of the term. The works of the flesh need not have anything to do with to the law. The law is not the determining factor of whether an act of the will is a work or not.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm not saying repentance must be by our own free will to get our sins remitted. I don't even think it's all by our free will, but a work through the Holy Spirit as a person is convicted of sin.

Is that also true of the first repentance? Or just subsequent repentance, after a person's will has been transformed?

 

[zoidar]

Is that also true of the first repentance? Or just subsequent repentance, after a person's will has been transformed?

I meant the initial repentance. It's not that simple to answer. My thoughts are when you are a Christian you already know the truth, so the Holy Spirit doesn't need to convict you of sin and righteousness again. As I think of conviction, it is the understanding you have sinned against God. A Christian already knows his sins are against God. So I would say for a Christian it is more of a free will choice to repent than for the unbeliever coming to Christ.

Maybe I misunderstood QvQ?

 

[zoidar]

Blessed are the pure in heart.
That is where I started, being an atheist, born and raised. To me, it was a simple desire to discover the Truth about God. Just curiosity, then intrigue, then a certainty It is still a "pure in heart" venture as my only goal, my only motivation is to know, love and serve God.
It doesn't have to do with sin for me. It doesn't have anything to do with gain or loss. It is a pure heart that seeks God for no reason other than to know God. And to know the truth about God. The more I know, the more I want to discover.
That is what "pure of heart" means to me. JMHO

To me a pure heart loves righteousness and hates sin. It's a heart that rejoices in good, and feels harm by evil.

 

[zoidar]

You are referring to only one use of the term. The works of the flesh need not have anything to do with to the law. The law is not the determining factor of whether an act of the will is a work or not.

You are right, but it's works of the Law Paul puts in opposition to faith. Repentance is not something Paul puts in opposition to faith. Repentance and faith go together in opposition to works of the Law.

 

[zoidar]

Get? Or have? Or keep? Only by imputation of Christ's righteousness, and forgiveness of sins. Continued repentance and obedience by the power of the Spirit of God.

Thank God we are not as we assess ourselves, but as God's use for us and assessment of us.

You don't think we experience the state of our heart, being mudded or clean? What do you do if you experience having a mudded up heart? The answer you say is continue in repentance and obedience? I believe God can make your heart clean, not in the sense of being seen by God as clean, but being actually clean.

 

[QvQ]

To me a pure heart loves righteousness and hates sin. It's a heart that rejoices in good, and feels harm by evil.

By the Grace of God.

 

[QvQ]

I meant the initial repentance.

Yes, that is what I meant, the initial.
God grants repentance. Then being convicted by the Holy Spirit and repenting seem to be one act of God, after a man believes.

Because a man believes, he is assured of salvation so the Scripture seem to say that God grants repentance and then the man could be regenerated, simultaneously and instantly. It is in the "conviction" that the conscience is regenerated so man would be aware of the nature of sin before the Holy Spirit washed the sins away.

However, I have also heard that the Holy Spirit is received at Baptism.

Just wondered what order or acts or works by whom were required. And what different denominations believed.
Whether some believe a man has to believe, then repent of his own accord or what mechanism is involved.

 

[QvQ]

You don't think we experience the state of our heart? What do you do if you experience having a mudded up heart. How do you get it clean? Maybe the answer is simple? Stop sinning and turn to God for help.

Exactly! The state of the heart is the key to the experience!

 

[zoidar]

Exactly! The state of the heart is the key to the experience!

If I get you right it's not our heart that gets cleaned, but as we turn to God we have a new standing with God. He sees us as though we had a clean heart. That is not what I'm saying. A Christian whose heart has been cleaned by being born anew, can get back a mudded heart again. How does a Christian who is already born anew get his heart cleaned up again, that was what I wondered.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I meant the initial repentance. It's not that simple to answer. My thoughts are when you are a Christian you already know the truth, so the Holy Spirit doesn't need to convict you of sin and righteousness again. As I think of conviction, it is the understanding you have sinned against God. A Christian already knows his sins are against God. So I would say for a Christian it is more of a free will choice to repent than for the unbeliever coming to Christ.

Maybe I misunderstood QvQ?

I think in Christian spiritual growth there is much need for conviction. And there is scripture that says things to that same effect, in different ways. Our understanding becomes more precise and relevant as we grow in him, as a result. But there is much paradox or riddles to explain there too, such as 'in weakness we become stronger as we grow', or even one that strikes me ironic: That the general rules God has given us to follow (to apply to specific circumstances) as though we in ourselves are given the authority to govern ourselves, become almost secondary to the pursuit of Christ and dependence on Christ as we age, yet the precision of meaning behind the command narrows as we grow. (I.e. A valid use of the two main commandments is more surely confirmed as we grow. I find this true for most believers of all denominations.)

 

[Mark Quayle]

You are right, but it's works of the Law Paul puts in opposition to faith. Repentance is not something Paul puts in opposition to faith. Repentance and faith go together in opposition to works of the Law.

Paul only puts the works of the law in opposition to faith in some of his writing, and that for a specific purpose. He also puts all acts of the flesh (sin nature) in opposition to faith.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If I get you right it's not our heart that gets cleaned, but as we turn to God we have a new standing with God. He sees us as though we had a clean heart. That is not what I'm saying. A Christian whose heart has been cleaned by being born anew, can get back a mudded heart again. How does a Christian who is already born anew get his heart cleaned up again, that was what I wondered.

Confession and repentance. 1 John 1:9

 

[Mark Quayle]

You don't think we experience the state of our heart, being mudded or clean? What do you do if you experience having a mudded up heart? The answer you say is continue in repentance and obedience? I believe God can make your heart clean, not in the sense of being seen by God as clean, but being actually clean.

"If the Son of Man shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." If God sees it as clean it is clean. It is only our perception that sees otherwise.

But you are talking about out perception, or "our experience of it". Ok. That comes by confession and repentance, and is maintained by constant obedience and communication with Christ.