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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Mark Quayle

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While God certainly chose Israel, His choice of Israel was not a salvific choice but a choice of them for the purpose of Christ being born to them, chosen to a task. The notion that God chose a particular group for salvation is essentially exactly what is being disputed here, so simply declaring that to be the case does nothing for the discussion. The notion that God chose an elect requires denying the passages that speak to God's desire to save all, because of the law of non-contradiction if God is the sole deciding factor in salvation then God cannot desire all to be saved unless all are saved. So Calvinists tie themselves in pretzels to preserve a philosophical view of God's sovereignty that denies what the Bible plainly says about God's desire to save all despite some being condemned. After all, what would prevent God from saving all if it is entirely within His prerogative and He desires all be saved?
Well, I struggled through your post. And thanks for the constructive criticism concerning mine.

I said nothing about God choosing Israel salvifically. The point is irrelevant. The point is, that he chose them instead of others, and dealt with them with particular love and attention, and for his particular purposes concerning them, for his own sake.

The notion that God desires equally and effectually to save absolutely all who ever will have lived denies Scriptural references to the Elect. I don't know if you accept the authority of scripture.

You have a worse problem than me, in exegesis; it is no pretzel to see that God does not desire equally and effectually that all be saved, since he is omnipotent. But you must maintain a fiction about uncaused freewill, in order to save your personal notion of the meaning of God's love. And then you are left with how to pretzel your way around the many passages that contradict your notion.
 
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Fervent

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Well, I struggled through your post. And thanks for the constructive criticism concerning mine.

I said nothing about God choosing Israel salvifically. The point is irrelevant. The point is, that he chose them instead of others, and dealt with them with particular love and attention, and for his particular purposes concerning them, for his own sake.
You may not have directly stated as much, but being chosen to a purpose is a far different issue than being chosen to salvation so unless Israel's election is salvific your point is not salient.

The notion that God desires equally and effectually to save absolutely all who ever will have lived denies Scriptural references to the Elect. I don't know if you accept the authority of scripture.
This is simply injecting words to create a loophole. God desires all to be saved, it's explicitly statd in Scripture. "equally and effectually" is simply a non-scriptural injection that bears no real meaning. What God desires, He desires effectually. For God there is no reason to put a wall of division between His will and His desires, because everything within His desire is within His power.

As for references to "the elect," the phrase like all other words is used differently in different contexts. It is only by imposing a homogeneity that does not exist in the text that the unscriptural Calvinistic view of "the elect" arises, which is why it was not an issue until the Reformation and it never became an issue in the Eastern church. "The elect" as Reformed theology understands it is a construct built on injecting a philosophical view into the text that simply is not present.

You have a worse problem than me, in exegesis; it is no pretzel to see that God does not desire equally and effectually that all be saved, since he is omnipotent. But you must maintain a fiction about uncaused freewill, in order to save your personal notion of the meaning of God's love. And then you are left with how to pretzel your way around the many passages that contradict your notion.
Again, there is no reason to separate God's desires from His will so to deny that God desires to "effectually and equally" save is tantamount to denying He desires to save them, which is a denial of explicit Biblical statements. What you perceive as my issues of exegesis involve a construct that did not exist until the Reformer's, built upon taking Augustinian concepts to an extreme and developing logical consequences from them. Its fruit of a rotten tree, and poses no issue in exegesis on my part as I am able to understand what Scripture means by "the elect" on the basis of the context the phrase appears in rather than applying a rigid construct that is not actually present.
 
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setst777

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the Father’s will is to give to the Son only those who believe in His Son after learning the Gospel (John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 1:21). To these who believe, the Father grants to come to the Son (John 6:36-37). Lord Jesus will raise up on the last day those who believe in Him and continue to stand firm in the faith to the end. That is the will of the Father

There are people who read, are taught and are preached the Bible and they don't believe. Both my parents attended religious schools and they were stone cold atheist.
I see God's will here. I see God granting to believers, I see the Will of the Father.
I don't see anything about the believers choosing willing or working with God
My parents truly believe religion is a superstitious fairy tale. They cannot by an act of will change that view except they tell a lie. I believe it is the truth and I cannot by an act of will change that except I become a liar. Neither of us chose that view. Belief is not an act of volition or will. It is an act of God.

You interpret what you express as meaning that God, by some mysterious election, chooses to give spiritual life so they are guaranteed believe and be saved, and the rest, God has formed and decreed to be damned for all eternity.

However, as sincere as your understanding is, it is the opposite of what the Scriptures are teaching us. Review the Scriptures I provided in my response.

Who will you believe, your own interpretations founded on limited human understanding, or God's Word, which is founded on the infinite wisdom of God?
 
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zoidar

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Fair question. . .

It is used in Romans 4:2-3 in relation to Abraham's faith in the promise
(seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5)
which faith God imputed/credited/reckoned to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6),
which Paul uses to demonstrate that God likewise imputes/credits/reckons our faith to us as righteousness
(Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:24-25),
according to the pattern of Abraham (Romans 4:1-11).

That faith is reckoned us as righteous is not the question. The big question is if Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith.

Are you of the belief that Abraham was imputed Christ's righteousness?
 
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Clare73

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True. Mark Q does a good job of explaining his doctrine, but such doctrine is actually in opposition the Scriptures, the Gospel (John 3:14-18) and to the very Glory of God's being - which is founded in Love and Righteousness.

God shows no favoritism, for God teaches us that to show favoritism is not only unrighteous, but wicked.
CONTRAIRE. . .

He showed favoritism to Israel out of all the nations, which they did not earn nor deserve.

God shows no favoritism in his justice, which he owes to everyone--to give them their due, what they have earned.
We all know what we are due as enemies of God--wrath (Romans 5:9-10).
God owes no one love, and is free to dispense it as he pleases.
Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

The will of the Father is to give to the Son all those who believe in the Son. The ones who believe receives eternal life. That is the Gospel.

John 6:39-40 (WEB)
39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 This is the will of the one who sent me; that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Who are the ones whom the Father wills to give to the Son, guaranteed, in context?
They are the ones the Father has enabled to come to Jesus (John 6:65).
What does the Scripture say?

God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6; Isaiah 45:21-22),

God’s gracious intention is to have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).

God invites all to be saved, because God desires all to be saved, but the will of God is to save all who believe

God invites all so that whosoever believes may be saved (Matthew 22:8-9; John 3:16).

God’s will and good pleasure is to save anyone who believes (John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 1:21).

God calls and draws and invites all people without favoritism (Isaiah 45:21-22; Acts 10:34-35; Acts 13:47; Matthew 28:19-20; John 12:32; John 12:47; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Titus 2:11).

God shows no favoritism (Acts 10:34-35) or partiality (Romans 2:10-11).
No favoritism in his justice, which he owes everyone, but not in his love which he owes no one.

He showed favoritism to Israel out of all the nations, which they did not deserve or earn.
 
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Clare73

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the Father’s will is to give to the Son only those who believe in His Son after learning the Gospel (John 6:40; 1 Corinthians 1:21). To these who believe, the Father grants to come to the Son (John 6:36-37).
Actually, you have that in reverse.

No one can come to the Son unless the Father has enabled him. (John 6:65)

Enablement from God (regeneration, John 3:3-7) must come first before anyone can do anything spiritually saving, including and beginning with faith.
Lord Jesus will raise up on the last day those who believe in Him and continue to stand firm in the faith to the end. That is the will of the Father

There are people who read, are taught and are preached the Bible and they don't believe. Both my parents attended religious schools and they were stone cold atheist.
I see God's will here. I see God granting to believers, I see the Will of the Father.
I don't see anything about the believers choosing willing or working with God
My parents truly believe religion is a superstitious fairy tale. They cannot by an act of will change that view except they tell a lie. I believe it is the truth and I cannot by an act of will change that except I become a liar. Neither of us chose that view. Belief is not an act of volition or will. It is an act of God.
Precisely. . .through the use of one's will, whereby he is made willing (enabled) to choose
(Philippians 2:13). . .as testified to by Jesus in John 6:65, above.
 
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QvQ

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You interpret what you express as meaning that God, by some mysterious election, chooses to give spiritual life so they are guaranteed believe and be saved, and the rest, God has formed and decreed to be damned for all eternity.
To me, God is as obvious as gravity. God has a reality. Faith is not an intellectual or emotional choice of words or description. If I read about "gravity" or "tooth fairies" there must be a corresponding reality to verify truth.
My personal interpretation of the Bible is based on whether the Word is a true and useful description of the real world. I have found the Bible to be a truthful match, a useful match to the actual world.
The question you pose is whether and how men come to God. These mechanisms are of intense interest to us because, frankly, the fact of my parents unbelief is a genuine puzzle.
I cannot by act of will deny God because God is Truth based on reality.
Therefore God, by some mysterious election, using a mechanism based of His own will and choosing, does save some men, "not all men are saved."

I am not certain about your interpretation of the Bible, but I don't quite have one of my own yet. I am reading along and puzzling it out rather than defending any position.
 
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QvQ

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Actually, you have that in reverse.
That was the quote from someone else's post. I was answering but I couldn't get the quote to work so I just copied it. That entire first paragraph is someone else' You disagreed
The rest is mine, you agreed
Interesting..
 
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Clare73

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That faith is reckoned us as righteous is not the question.
The big question is if Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith.
"Faith reckoned (imputed) as righteousness," and "righteousness imputed (reckoned) through faith"
are one and the same thing.


By "Christ's righteousness" (Romans 5:18) is meant one act of Christ's obedience, which was his death on the cross, which paid for our sin.

Yes, Christ's righteousness is imputed to all who believe/are saved.
Are you of the belief that Abraham was imputed Christ's righteousness?
Let's start with the nature of the NT imputation.

In contrast to, and in parallel of, the imputation of (the first) Adam's sin/guilt to all those of the seed of Adam,
is the imputation of the obedience/righteousness (the cross, Romans 5:18) of Jesus Christ to all those of the seed of (the second Adam) Christ.

It being specifically the obedience of the cross (Christ's one act of obedience, Romans 5:18) imputed to them, and which death on the cross pays the debt for their sin, what is actually imputed is the forgiveness of sin, which is salvation.

So Abraham, like all the other OT saints, was saved by faith in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 15:5, Galatians 3:16) in anticipation of Christ's atoning work, as were the OT saints of Romans 3:25-26.
They were saved by faith in an event of the future, just as we are saved by faith in an event of the past.

So when you ask if Abraham was imputed Christ's righteousness (salvation), I answer yes, as were all the OT saints (Romans 3:25-26; Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 11:40).
 
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misput

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To Clare and Mark: Thank you for your detailed replies. I will ponder them and see if they jell for me. Mark, you asked me about Romans 9 the other day: Being chosen to a purpose is a far different issue than being chosen to salvation is the short answer. Copied from a Fervent post, thank you Fervent.
 
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It being specifically the obedience of the cross (Christ's one act of obedience, Romans 5:18) imputed to them, and which death on the cross pays the debt for their sin, what is actually imputed is the forgiveness of sin, which is salvation.

So Abraham, like all the other OT saints, was saved by faith in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 15:5) in anticipation of Christ's atoning work, as were the OT saints of Romans 3:25-26.
They were saved by faith in an event to come, just as we are saved by faith in an event of the past.

So when you ask if Abraham was imputed Christ's righteousness, I answer yes, as were all the OT saints (Romans 3:25-26; Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 11:40).
U have that part right for sure. The other part I am still pondering.
 
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Clare73

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U have that part right for sure. The other part I am still pondering.
"just as the result of one trespass (the fruit) was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (declared not guilty; righteous) that brings life for all men." (Romans 5:18)
 
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zoidar

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By "Christ's righteousness" (Romans 5:18) is meant one act of Christ's obedience, which was his death on the cross, which paid for our sin.

Yes, Christ's righteousness is imputed to all who believe/are saved.

Let's start with the nature of the NT imputation.

In contrast to, and in parallel of, the imputation of (the first) Adam's sin/guilt to all those of the seed of Adam,
is the imputation of the obedience/righteousness (the cross, Romans 5:18) of Jesus Christ to the seed of (the second Adam) Christ.

It being specifically the obedience of the cross (Christ's one act of obedience, Romans 5:18) imputed to them, and which death on the cross pays the debt for their sin, what is actually imputed is the forgiveness of sin, which is salvation.

So Abraham, like all the other OT saints, was saved by faith in the Promise (seed, Jesus Christ, Genesis 3:15, Genesis 15:5) in anticipation of Christ's atoning work, as were the OT saints of Romans 3:25-26.
They were saved by faith in an event to come, just as we are saved by faith in an event of the past.

So when you ask if Abraham was imputed Christ's righteousness, I answer yes, as were all the OT saints (Romans 3:25-26; Hebrews 9:15, Hebrews 11:40).

This is the same view held by Lutherans, if I'm not mistaken. The thing is, one part of me wish it was true and on the other hand I doubt it is. I have allowed this question to dwell in the back of my head, but I'm as for today undecided. I was saved long before I knew anything about this doctrine, but it can be of good assistance to have a well grounded doctrine, won't argue there.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You may not have directly stated as much, but being chosen to a purpose is a far different issue than being chosen to salvation so unless Israel's election is salvific your point is not salient.

Well, of course it is a separate consideration, but they are both the same thing as far as the Elect. God's plan for them is one, though, like the non-elect, they are made also for specific things, to include specific interactions with other humans. God's decree, (specific plans) for individual humans, stands and will not change.

This is simply injecting words to create a loophole. God desires all to be saved, it's explicitly statd in Scripture. "equally and effectually" is simply a non-scriptural injection that bears no real meaning. What God desires, He desires effectually. For God there is no reason to put a wall of division between His will and His desires, because everything within His desire is within His power.

Is it, or is it not, obvious he does not have the same and equal intention and love toward all people?

As for references to "the elect," the phrase like all other words is used differently in different contexts. It is only by imposing a homogeneity that does not exist in the text that the unscriptural Calvinistic view of "the elect" arises, which is why it was not an issue until the Reformation and it never became an issue in the Eastern church. "The elect" as Reformed theology understands it is a construct built on injecting a philosophical view into the text that simply is not present.

You poo-poo the notion by way of complaining that "Elect" can mean several things. So get specific. Which uses of "Elect" do not apply to those he chose from the foundation of the earth, even before they were conceived, and which uses of "Elect" do refer to what I am referring to by, "Elect"? It actually should only even take one time (yes, necessarily 'in context') for the doctrine to be sound.

Again, there is no reason to separate God's desires from His will so to deny that God desires to "effectually and equally" save is tantamount to denying He desires to save them, which is a denial of explicit Biblical statements. What you perceive as my issues of exegesis involve a construct that did not exist until the Reformer's, built upon taking Augustinian concepts to an extreme and developing logical consequences from them. Its fruit of a rotten tree, and poses no issue in exegesis on my part as I am able to understand what Scripture means by "the elect" on the basis of the context the phrase appears in rather than applying a rigid construct that is not actually present.

Your whole narrative here is suspect, even aside from the fact that, in context, neither mention of God desiring all to be saved can mean, 'all the elect', or 'people of all kinds' etc. You necessarily must proclaim as 'insoluble (irreducible) that "all means all" —at least in these instances', and you must make a rule that God's desire necessarily is consistent with his plans, unless interrupted by chance happenings by uncaused freewill, or by other unforeseeable events.

It is rather obvious, when Christ says, (Luke 22:42) “Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done.” that there were two things going on here. Not both can be done, but the plan will be done, not the wish. We know that God hates sin. But without the fact of sin and its results, there would be no perfect Dwelling Place of God. It is not without wishing it could be otherwise, and it is not without great personal pain, that he decreed that all things happen that have (and will) happen, to the Joy of both God and man, and to the Glory of God.
 
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Clare73

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This is the same view held by Lutherans, if I'm not mistaken.
The thing is, one part of me wish it was true and on the other hand I doubt it is.
"Faith reckoned (imputed) as righteousness," and "righteousness imputed (reckoned) through faith"
are one and the same thing.

I have allowed this question to dwell in the back of my head, but I'm as for today undecided. I was saved long before I knew anything about this doctrine, but it can be of good assistance to have a well grounded doctrine, won't argue there.
It's the clear word of God in the Scriptures. . .can you share what is your reservation regarding it?

Is the word of God in Scripture regarding it authoritative for you?
 
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Mark Quayle

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This is the same view held by Lutherans, if I'm not mistaken. The thing is, one part of me wish it was true and on the other hand I doubt it is. I have allowed this question to dwell in the back of my head, but I'm as for today undecided. I was saved long before I knew anything about this doctrine, but it can be of good assistance to have a well grounded doctrine, won't argue there.
For what it's worth, both @Clare73 and I agree that one needn't know or even agree with Reformed Theology if they DO 'know' it, for God to save them. Except that I know God's will always has a good reason, I wish I had known it earlier, because it would have saved me many sleepless nights. On the other hand, book-learning isn't the same as experience, and this is how he answered my agonized prayers.
 
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Fervent

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Well, of course it is a separate consideration, but they are both the same thing as far as the Elect. God's plan for them is one, though, like the non-elect, they are made also for specific things, to include specific interactions with other humans. God's decree, (specific plans) for individual humans, stands and will not change.
This is nothing but philosophical garbage, as is typical of your posts. You begin with the assumption that God is some kind of puppet master, but as I said earlier such a view is simply not worthy of consideration because if it is true there is nothing in our power to change. It's an untenable position because arguing for it refutes it by implying the effectiveness of the will of the one you're arguing with.


Is it, or is it not, obvious he does not have the same and equal intention and love toward all people?
I would say it is not obvious, either Biblically or practically. After all, God is not a respecter of persons and does not show favortism.


You poo-poo the notion by way of complaining that "Elect" can mean several things. So get specific. Which uses of "Elect" do not apply to those he chose from the foundation of the earth, even before they were conceived, and which uses of "Elect" do refer to what I am referring to by, "Elect"? It actually should only even take one time (yes, necessarily 'in context') for the doctrine to be sound.
My discarding of the Calvinist construct of the elect is not simply because the phrase is contextually dependent, but because the Calvinist notion of "the elect" is a product of Reformation philosophy(which itself is a product of Augustinian original sin). Catholic theology only minorly struggled with Calvinist election with Jansenism, and there is no predecessor before Luther and Calvin as the debate between Thomism and Mollinism is distinctly different since Thomist predestination necessarily involves the cooperation of the human will. Where Augustine's influence is minimal there has been no such theological struggle, nothing resembling Calvinism ever took root in the East and certainly makes no appearance in the pre-Augustinian church fathers.


Your whole narrative here is suspect, even aside from the fact that, in context, neither mention of God desiring all to be saved can mean, 'all the elect', or 'people of all kinds' etc. You necessarily must proclaim as 'insoluble (irreducible) that "all means all" —at least in these instances', and you must make a rule that God's desire necessarily is consistent with his plans, unless interrupted by chance happenings by uncaused freewill, or by other unforeseeable events.
Those are escape hypotheses, nothing in the context of the text or in ordinary usage suggests such a thing. It's simply a desperate attempt by Calvinists to invent a subversion of explicit Biblical texts that contradict their doctrine which is built on philosophical presuppositions being read into verses that have been removed from their literary and historic context. The fact that such a view did not arise until the 16th century demonstrates that it is not naturally in the text, but is instead a product of 16th century philosophy.

It is rather obvious, when Christ says, (Luke 22:42) “Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Thine be done.” that there were two things going on here. Not both can be done, but the plan will be done, not the wish. We know that God hates sin. But without the fact of sin and its results, there would be no perfect Dwelling Place of God. It is not without wishing it could be otherwise, and it is not without great personal pain, that he decreed that all things happen that have (and will) happen, to the Joy of both God and man, and to the Glory of God.
Dyothelitism does not demonstrate a division within God, it is only if Jesus is understood monothelitically that your reference presents a problem. Certainly, I would say that Calvinist theology reduces Jesus to being monothelitic, but that's an entirely different discussion.

The division Calvinism introduces is not between Christ's humanity and His divinity, but in the Godhead itself. It turns God into a schizophrenic willing two opposing things at once. It's bad theology, even if it weren't morally odious and contradictory to the full witness of Scrripture.
 
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Fervent

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To Clare and Mark: Thank you for your detailed replies. I will ponder them and see if they jell for me. Mark, you asked me about Romans 9 the other day: Being chosen to a purpose is a far different issue than being chosen to salvation is the short answer. Copied from a Fervent post, thank you Fervent.
Romans 9 is a great example of how Calvinist's fail to properly resolve the context of the text. The clear background of Romans 8-11 is Jewish history especially prophetically, and so how the Jews understood the references must be resolved to understand what is meant. The Calvinist will tell you that Jacob and Esau refer to the individuals and God's pre-existent selection of them, but that's not what's going on. Instead it is referring to the national identities, with the central point revolving around God's faithfulness. When God says "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy," this does not imply an exclusive claim to God's mercy but the very opposite. This is shown with the nations of Israel and Edom, which those who know the history of will recognize that God blessed Edom with lands of their own despite Esau's rejection of his birthright. While the Calvinist will tell you Romans 8-9 is about Justifying God's rejection of Israel, it's instead a declaration of God's continuing faithfulness to His covenant through a re-shaping in spite of the apparent despising of Israel's birthright in their rejection of the Messiah. Where it speaks of God's hardening of the people, it is not a matter of His instigation of their rejection but His strengthening their resolve just as He did with Pharoah hardening him so that he would not shrink from the judgment that God visited upon Egypt and release the Israelites from fear. Altogether, Romans 8-11 lays out how the revelation of Christ is not an overthrow of the covenant with Israel but its very purpose and a demonstration of God's faithfulness to those who love Him.
 
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It turns God into a schizophrenic willing two opposing things at once.
Fervent
Explain how God could desire one thing and will another, For God desires all men to be saved but wills only some to be saved, explain that please It does sound either schizophrenic:
1) God has two wills, one is desire, the other is what he actually does. God is making choices, selecting between what He actually wants but choosing to do or allow what is against His moral nature

2) Or that God is subject to a higher will.
"God wanted to do that but was unable due to circumstances beyond His control" doesn't sound very biblical to me.
 
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