What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

It's not obvious to me, at least not how you guys think about it.

And how do you think about it? According to the text, I hope.

Is the one that is seeing the kingdom of God but has not yet entered it saved? Or
is he saved first when he enters it?

He is saved when he believes in and trusts on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sin, and only God is in a position to know exactly when that occurs in his heart.

More working knowledge of the NT could be useful.

 

[mccafferty1]

These last posts make me think of Bill Clinton and his definition of what is, is.

“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement". …
(footnote 1,128 in Starr’s report)

 

[zoidar]

He is saved when he believes in and trusts on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sin, and only God is in a position to know exactly when that is.

You don't know if that is when he sees the kingdom or after he has entered it? I think you see there is a problem here.

 

[Clare73]

You don't know if that is when he sees the kingdom or after he has entered it?
I think you see there is a problem here.

I neither see, nor have a problem.

I am content with what the Scriptures present on the matter.
And that is what I have presented to you.

If that is not adequate for you, as it is for me, you will have to take it up with the one responsible for the Scriptures.
I have no problem with them the way they are.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's not obvious to me, at least not how you guys think about it.

Is the one that is seeing the kingdom of God but has not yet entered it saved? Or is he saved first when he enters it?

'Saved' is referring to what, exactly, as you use it here? In one sense, and in fact, I think you have said so yourself, one is saved upon dying and being resurrected and arriving in Heaven. In another sense, one is saved from a life of slavery to sin, and is set on a sure course by having his penalty of death removed from him, in being born again. But neither occurs without being born again.

So the question is a little off, in that, in the one sense, if someone is saved, he has entered the kingdom of Heaven, whether he sees it or not.

To answer your second question, in a sense, like the above, if one is saved, he, by definition, has entered the kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You don't know if that is when he sees the kingdom or after he has entered it? I think you see there is a problem here.

I don't see any problem there. Can you explain?

 

[zoidar]

I neither see, nor have a problem.

I am content with what the Scriptures present on the matter.
And that is what I have presented to you.

If that is not adequate for you, as it is for me, you will have to take it up with the one responsible for the Scriptures.
I have no problem with them the way they are.

I don't see any problem there. Can you explain?

Saved I would say means, have become a member of God's kingdom, a child of God.

From what you say I draw this conclusion: When you receive the indwelling of the Spirit you see the kingdom of God, but you are not yet saved until you enter the kingdom of God and become a member of God's family. In that case it means you can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not yet be saved (that's the problem).

 

[Clare73]

Saved I would say means, have become a member of God's kingdom, a child of God.

From what you say I draw this conclusion: When you receive the indwelling of the Spirit you see the kingdom of God, but you are not yet saved until you enter the kingdom of God and become a member of God's family.

And you have just shown that one must first be born again to believe and be saved.

In that case it means you can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and not yet be saved (that's the problem).

Precisely. . . because you must be born again in order to believe and be saved.

The issue is: can you believe apart from the Holy Spirit?

The NT says no (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Belief requires the Holy Spirit.

And those who have the Holy Spirit are born again.

In the NT, rebirth precedes belief (John 3:5-8).

 

[John Mullally]

So you are claiming that their unbelief meant that God CAN'T do something? Or do you admit that, perhaps, their unbelief meant that God prohibited Christ from performing miracles there?

Either way their unbelief resulted in preventing Jesus from demonstrating God's love and doing what He had done elsewhere.

These passages are not new to me. I've never seen them disprove any of my doctrines.

Excellent that you know the bible. I believe the passage was given to show why God's blessings are not received by all.

Practical application: For our own sake, be diligent in detecting and rooting out personal unbelief (see also Matt 16:23).

 

[Clare73]

Either way their unbelief resulted in preventing Jesus from demonstrating God's love and doing what He had done elsewhere.
Excellent that you know the bible. I believe the passage was given to show why God's blessings are not received by all.

Practical application: For your own sake, be diligent in detecting and rooting out personal unbelief (see also Matt 16:23).

Ad hominem?

Physician, heal thyself?

 

[John Mullally]

Explain what you find vague regarding your argument: requiring payment twice for the same sin being a violation of God's exacting justice.

Payment is not received automatically. Provision was made, but receipt of payment requires faith as I have demonstrated. I am done re-explaining.

 

[Clare73]

Payment is not received automatically.

But according to you, it was made. . .someone is out the payment.

And indeed, it is about receiving payment, your view (he died for everyone) makes it about making payment.

Provision was made, but receipt of payment requires faith as I have demonstrated.
I am done re-explaining.

Your explaining neither addresses nor removes the problem it creates.

Payment may not have been received for all, but you claim that it was made for all.

And if it was made for all by Christ, then it is made a second time for the same sin by the unbeliever.

And that makes God unjust; ergo, payment was not made for everyone.

And again: "for whom" is not the point, when the real issue is "to whom it is applied."

Christ died for the world (both Gentile and Jew) to whom it is applied.

That is the revelation of the NT in agreement with the whole counsel of God--which does not attribute injustice to God.

 

[zoidar]

Precisely. . . because you must be born again in order to believe and be saved.

I don't know if you have thought that answer through. I very much doubt that is a general consensus among the Reformed churches. And you will have a very hard time to show that from Scripture.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

These last posts make me think of Bill Clinton and his definition of what is, is.

“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is. If the—if he—if ‘is’ means is and never has been, that is not—that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement". …
(footnote 1,128 in Starr’s report)

How true lol

 

[Clare73]

I don't know if you have thought that answer through. I very much doubt that is a general consensus among the Reformed churches. And
you will have a very hard time to show that from Scripture.

Are you sure about that?
You just showed it. . .

And have you read Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:5?

Do you apprehend their import?''

.

 

[zoidar]

Are you sure about that?
You just showed it. . .

And have you read Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:5?

Do you apprehend their import?''

.

I have nothing more to add...

What do you do for a living Clare? (Feel free to answer if you like)

 

[Clare73]

I have nothing more to add...

What do you do for a living Clare? (Feel free to answer if you like)

I'm retired.

And you?

 

[zoidar]

I'm retired.

And you?

Not fully sure what it's called in English. I work part time as "personal care assistant". Basically, I go out and do fun stuff together with people with autism, asperger's etc. I'm blessed with that job, I have to say.

 

[Clare73]

Not fully sure what it's called in English. I work part time as "personal care assistant". Basically, I go out and do fun stuff together with people with autism, asperger's etc. I'm blessed with that job, I have to say.

What do they think is fun?

 

[zoidar]

What do they think is fun?

A lot of different things. Sometimes we just go for a walk or just sit and chat. Other times swimming or playing billiards, watching movies, playing chess, or going to the gym. Regular stuff...