What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Der Alte]

Not fully sure what it's called in English. I work part time as "personal care assistant". Basically, I go out and do fun stuff together with people with autism, asperger's etc. I'm blessed with that job, I have to say.

I found three job descriptions. Personal Care Assistant, Personal Assistant, Care Aissistant.

 

[misput]

Ps 22:24 as I read it does not indicate what you stated. Matter of fact, I could not find anything like that in Ps 22. Mind finding it, and copy and paste it, so I can see what I am missing, please?

As for being predestined? Yes.. We were chosen IN Him (Ephesians 1:4).

In Him? Just like the woman was in Adam before she was to be revealed. As Eve became bone of Adam's bones and flesh of his flesh? So are we going to be when He gives us a resurrection body just like his own glorious heavenly body. Right now we are hidden in Christ awaiting our resurrection body.

Now... Since OT saints will not be the Bride of Christ? They are the friend of the Groom. Clare and company will have to say Jesus did not predestine the likes of Moses, etc. For they were not chosen IN Christ to be His Bride. It gets messy when that kind of thinking is dogmatized and finally hits a wall of light. God's Word is light.

If you read Psalms 22 carefully down about verse 16 & 18 it becomes obvious that Ps.22 is a prophecy by David about the crucifixion of Jesus and by verse 24 it becomes clear that God did not forsake Jesus.

 

[zoidar]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
The Bible is about the glory of God, and specifically, about the Gospel of grace.

Is that not about the Gospel? Is it not to his glory?

It's about the gospel. The gospel is not for His glory, but to His glory. If it was for His glory it would not give Him glory. The gospel is about God restoring His relationship with man, and that gives Him glory.

"Unconditional Election" is about Grace. We are saved by grace (specifically denying that it is by the will of man), the phrase refers to the fact that we cannot merit grace, nor are we more 'worth' saving than anyone else. The fact that he made us for a different purpose doesn't even merit us anything but is totally by his special love for those he has chosen for that purpose, and showed us mercy. That too, is about the Gospel. So no,I'm not referring doctrines like "unconditional election". I'm referring to the Gospel which is what those doctrines are about.

I agree with you that we can't merit grace, that we are not worth saving more than anyone else and that salvation is of grace.

I don't view what "those doctrines describe" as the gospel. To me the gospel is simple: God sent His Son to die for our sins. Repent, believe and be saved.

HOW do we believe, then?

We can discuss that, but the gospel is not about how we believe, but that we believe.

Have you plumbed the depths of the Gospel? None of us have. But if you think YOUR choosing to believe is the hinge upon which eternity swings, consider the height of Grace. And consider the depth of sin, and the ignorance of any of us to even really know what he is doing when he chooses to repent and obey, or the inability to be constant instead of fickle, and to know the power of burning purity of the God he is giving his heart to, and what it was for God to become man, and what really happened at the cross, and what a sacrifice it really was. Consider that only the Holy Spirit within us is up to this task, and to cause in us HIS saving faith; we can't generate that kind of faith, can we?

No, we cannot generate that kind of faith. We need to repent so God will generate that faith in us. I don't think our eternity hangs on our willpower, but on His mercy to forgive.

Yes, our will is intimately involved, more strongly than we even know, with the ridiculous promises we make to be what God demands of his servants, but it is not our will that drives us, but God's —by the Spirit of God indwelling us. We are reborn, not to independence, but dependence on him.

Only God can do this. And we do it because it is him doing it in us.

I don't think it gives God honor to say our promises to follow Him as servants are ridiculous, if you mean that. We are children of God and if our promise is sincere, God looks at us with joy and honors that promise. We can take pride in making ourselves "great", but we can also take pride in making ourselves "worthless". Neither glorifies God. Not saying you do that, but I see it happen.

I'm a bit puzzled how we see these things so differently. Still we are of the same body, have the same Lord, and we have to be thankful for that. You have said many nice things about me, so it's my turn to say something. I have noticed you are a good thinker and I'm sure you are much further in your studies of philosophy than I am. To me these discussions feel a bit like, you "win" some, you "lose" some, and I think that is natural when it comes to these huge questions.

Btw, did you see the video I posted with Gavin (Calvinism isn't crazy)?

 

[Der Alte]

If you read Psalms 22 carefully down about verse 16 & 18 it becomes obvious that Ps.22 is a prophecy by David about the crucifixion of Jesus and by verse 24 it becomes clear that God did not forsake Jesus.

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?​

And Jesus quotes Psalm 22 from the cross.

Matthew 27:46
(46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
why art thou so far from helping me, מישׁועתי and from the words of my roaring?​

Right in the middle of the word translated "helping me" is the word Yeshua ישׁוע

 

[Clare73]

A lot of different things. Sometimes we just go for a walk or just sit and chat. Other times swimming or playing billiards, watching movies, playing chess, or going to the gym. Regular stuff...

Good catch, by the way. . .

 

[Clare73]

It's about the gospel. The gospel is not for His glory, but to His glory. If it was for His glory it would not give Him glory. The gospel is about God restoring His relationship with man, and that gives Him glory.

I agree with you that we can't merit grace, that we are not worth saving more than anyone else and that salvation is of grace.

I don't view what "those doctrines describe" as the gospel. To me the gospel is simple: God sent His Son to die for our sins. Repent, believe and be saved.

We can discuss that, but the gospel is not about how we believe, but that we believe.

No, we cannot generate that kind of faith. We need to repent so God will generate that faith in us. I don't think our eternity hangs on our willpower, but on His mercy to forgive.

I don't think it gives God honor to say our promises to follow Him as servants are ridiculous, if you mean that. We are created in God's image and if our promises are sincere, I'm sure
God looks at us making them with joy.

We have nothing to "give" God but what he first gives us (1 Corinthians 4:7).
His glory is not in what we give him, but in what he makes of us.

I'm a bit puzzled how we see these things so differently.

Humanity is your reference point. . .God is Scripture's reference point.

Still we are of the same body, have the same Lord, and we have to be thankful for that. You have said many nice things about me, so it's my turn to say something. I have noticed you are a good thinker and I'm sure you are much further in your studies of philosophy than I am. To me these discussions feel a bit like, you win some, you lose some, and I think that is natural when it comes to these huge questions.

Btw, did you see the video I posted with Gavin (Calvinism isn't crazy)?

 

[misput]

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?​

And Jesus quotes Psalm 22 from the cross.

Matthew 27:46
(46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
why art thou so far from helping me, מישׁועתי and from the words of my roaring?​

Right in the middle of the word translated "helping me" is the word Yeshua ישׁוע

and?

 

[Der Alte]

and?

Why are you so far from Yeshua?

 

[zoidar]

Humanity is your reference point. . .God is Scripture's reference point.

I don't think it's way off to say that the Bible is a love letter from God to man.

 

[Clare73]

I don't think it's way off to say that the Bible is a love letter from God to man.

Me neither. . .

Dear Man,

I command all to repent and believe (Acts 17:30).

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).
But with the Spirit, you cannot tell where he is going (John 3:8).
Likewise, the sinful (unregenerate) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful mind (the unregenerate) cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8),
for the things of God are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Apart from me (my Spirit), you can do nothing (John 15:5).

Your only hope is my free mercy and grace, which you neither deserve nor can earn, whicy my love purchased at so high a price.

Love,
God

 

[zoidar]

Me neither. . .

Dear Man,

I command all to repent and believe (Acts 17:30).

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).
But with the Spirit, you cannot tell where he is going (John 3:8).
Likewise, the sinful (unregenerate) mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful mind (the unregenerate) cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8),
for the things of God are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Apart from me (my Spirit), you can do nothing (John 15:5).

Your only hope is my free mercy and grace, which you neither deserve nor can earn, whicy my love purchased at so high a price.

Love,
God

I don't think that sounds too much like a love letter. But great you are on board with the idea!

 

[misput]

Why are you so far from Yeshua?

???

 

[Clare73]

I don't think that sounds too much like a love letter. But great you are on board with the idea!

But it's the Bible, which you said is a love letter!

So perhaps you should amend your statement to: only parts of the Bible are a love letter?

 

[Der Alte]

???

why art thou so far from helping me,
why art thou so far from מישׁועתי [Yeshua]
and from the words of my roaring?
Right in the middle of the word translated "helping me" is the word Yeshua ישׁוע
I thought it was interesting

 

[misput]

why art thou so far from helping me,
why art thou so far from מישׁועתי [Yeshua]
and from the words of my roaring?
Right in the middle of the word translated "helping me" is the word Yeshua ישׁוע
I thought it was interesting

It is interesting but the whole point is verse 24, God did not dessert Jesus. Most never put it together and even quote Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: To show that God had to forsake Jesus on the cross because He was bearing our sins.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't think it's way off to say that the Bible is a love letter from God to man.

Jesus as much as said it was.
God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him should not perish by have everlasting life.
And not as some folks argue God so loved the elect.

 

[GenemZ]

That's a really interesting belief. Please share the scripture that supports your opinion.

John the Baptist died before the church age began. He never became a new creation in Christ, but was an OT believer in the Messiah. John was not chosen in Christ before the foundations of the world, for only the Church was chosen to be in Christ as His Bride.

Now John the Baptist stated that he (being a OT Jew) was not the Bride of Christ. But, rather. That he was considered to be a friend of the Groom. Resurrected Jews like Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.. will all be a friend of Jesus, while we (the church) will be the Bride of the Groom.

The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom
waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice.
That joy is mine, and it is now complete." John 3:29


grace and peace.........​

 

[GenemZ]

If you read Psalms 22 carefully down about verse 16 & 18 it becomes obvious that Ps.22 is a prophecy by David about the crucifixion of Jesus and by verse 24 it becomes clear that God did not forsake Jesus.

Paste it here! Show us those verses for all to see, and then show us how that is so. What translation are you using?

Keep in mind. Psalm 22 covers both while Jesus was being forsaken, and after the action ceased. Ceased because there were no more sins to die for. He was only forsaken while their were yet more sins to bare.

 

[misput]

Paste it here! Show us those verses for all to see, and then show us how that is so. What translation are you using?

Keep in mind. Psalm 22 covers both while Jesus was being forsaken, and after the action ceased. Ceased because there were no more sins to die for. He was only forsaken while their were yet more sins to bare.

Any translation. You may be wright Gene, grace and peace.

 

[zoidar]

why art thou so far from helping me,
why art thou so far from מישׁועתי [Yeshua]
and from the words of my roaring?
Right in the middle of the word translated "helping me" is the word Yeshua ישׁוע
I thought it was interesting

Paste it here! Show us those verses for all to see, and then show us how that is so. What translation are you using?

Keep in mind. Psalm 22 covers both while Jesus was being forsaken, and after the action ceased. Ceased because there were no more sins to die for. He was only forsaken while their were yet more sins to bare.

Any translation. You may be wright Gene, grace and peace.

An interesting thing is what it means that Jesus was forsaken on the cross. Does it mean he was cut off from the Father? That God had turned His face away from him? Or does it just mean that Jesus was forsaken in the way that he had to suffer so badly, being scorned, whipped, nailed, hung when the Father could at any time have stopped it. I know many don't like the idea, because they mean a part of Jesus taking the punishment for sin was to be cut off from God, to show how terrible sin is. But Jesus did pray to the Father on the cross. So I don't know.