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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Mark Quayle

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#1727 (was either missed or ignored for some reason)

"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1 Corinthians 2:14


That is true about the common man. He doesn't understand or accept the things of the Spirit until he repents and receive the Spirit. Then he can accept and understand.

You can be unsaved and be a natural man and still believe in Christ death and resurrection. So that can't be what Paul talks about in 1 Cor 2. The natural man has to get the Spirit to know God, and be saved. I think that is Paul's point."​

1 Cor 2 explains the difference between the natural man and the Spiritual man. But it doesn't explain how a natural man becomes a Spiritual man.

Paul says they are Spiritual because they have received the Spirit of God. Does it say how they received the Spirit of God? Does it say they were first regenerated? I don't see that in the text.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
— 1 Corinthians 2:12

I should have thought it was obvious! Receiving the Spirit of God IS the regeneration, that is, the Spirit dwelling within regenerates the person. I don't think either Arminianism and certainly not Calvinism, claims that one is regenerated before receiving the Spirit of God, (unless the 'receiving' is a separate kind of thing, usually, a 'filling', for a particular purpose, unrelated to salvation and justification.)
 
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RickReads

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Please try to be a little more constructive. Paul says:

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
— Galatians 5:13-16

Alrighty then, Thx.
 
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zoidar

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I should have thought it was obvious! Receiving the Spirit of God IS the regeneration, that is, the Spirit dwelling within regenerates the person. I don't think either Arminianism and certainly not Calvinism, claims that one is regenerated before receiving the Spirit of God, (unless the 'receiving' is a separate kind of thing, usually, a 'filling', for a particular purpose, unrelated to salvation and justification.)

I knew that. I don't remember what I was thinking, but it doesn't say how they received the Spirit anyhow (the order of things). Possibly I meant "Does it say they were first regenerated, before repentance?"
 
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RickReads

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In the passages below I find teaching on the judgment straight from the Judge. Jesus reveals a severe judgment upon unbelievers and unfaithful servants. Yet a distinction is made between the unfaithful, the unbelieving, and those who knew not. Those who knew not receive a light punishment. Think about the ramifications of that. Revelation tells us that the book of life is to be opened at the White Throne judgment. Why open it if no one's name is written in there?

Luke 12
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
  1. Matthew 10:15
    Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
  2. Matthew 11:22
    But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
  3. Matthew 11:24
    But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
 
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Mark Quayle

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In Acts 2:38-39, Peter promises remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost to those who repent. If we respond with repentance, which is not a work of the law, then God changes our nature. Just take God at His word.

Nice. It is good to have a simple heart toward the Scriptures. But that doesn't mean that any of them should be abandoned or neglected.

Does Acts 2:38-39 deny these can happen simultaneously? Nevertheless, the cause-effect relationship is clear according to multiple scriptures, such as Romans 8 and Eph 2, that the mind of the flesh cannot do what is spiritual, until it is made spiritual. The dead cannot do anything until they are made alive. And that happens by Grace, not of yourself.

More on 'receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit' below.

I see God's continuing work in us as being correction and guidance. He has already given believers the Holy Spirit and many promises - as you dig into the word. He does not make us do anything. God will not do for us what He has commanded us to do.

How about he will do in us what he has commanded us to do? "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." I have yet to claim what I have been accused of, that the believer does not choose, does not will to do, does not work.

You seem to imply correction and guidance being external in some sense, that is, that he acts, we respond in gratefulness or whatever the case may be, by our own choice and hopefully by our continually increasing integrity. God does his part, we do ours. Cooperation. Total sum better by the two of us, than simply by the unimproved will of God.

I have had it explained by some that our relationship with Christ, of growth in Christ, is a give and take sort of thing, where God takes us through more and more independent duties of our own, until we can do on our own, and are mature, strong, etc. But a simple reading of Scripture shows that independence as not only foolishness but sin, and that our maturity grows by our dependence on him. John 17 is scary how Christ regards his own, attributing us with a personality that sounds so like himself, that I tend to fear it, wanting to shrink back from such a duty, such a standing: ONE with him. Not separate from him. ONE IN HIM. No more of this world than he is. I submit that nobody is ever up to that challenge. But the indwelling Spirit of God is.

Not trying to be rude, but I am only responsible to follow NT directives - among which is not being anxious about things I am not called to address. Is this the kind of stuff that many Calvinists spend there time contemplating?
Not trying to be rude, but you are being —(what's the word?)— dismissive of what you don't see necessary for you to have the habit of being or doing. As if, since it doesn't matter to you, why should it matter to anyone else?

There are many gifts. If you don't see the need for accurate doctrine, it's either because "maybe that's just not [your] gift" (i.e. you're simply just not really that interested), or you don't understand the importance of Scripture, or because you are satisfied with 'freewill' as superior to God's sovereign choice. Calvinists are amazed and compelled by God's Grace. Why God would bother to exalt us, at such cost to himself, "while we were yet sinners...", is beyond our ability to praise adequately. We MUST look into it. "The lion has roared —who will not be afraid?" comes to mind.

I take exception to the notion that we are not called to address the question of GRACE. It is endemic to the Gospel. ALL the credit goes to God, from first to last, beginning to end.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Your ongoing hostility suggests otherwise. To me, you are demonstrating that the floor is clean and you have a noticeable rash on your forehead, figuratively speaking of course.
Well, that is funny, if a bit on the bitter side... kudos!
 
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Mark Quayle

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Please try to be a little more constructive. Paul says:

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
— Galatians 5:13-16

Alrighty then, Thx.

Likewise. Good lesson. I am guilty. Thx
 
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Mark Quayle

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I knew that. I don't remember what I was thinking, but it doesn't say how they received the Spirit anyhow (the order of things). Possibly I meant "Does it say they were first regenerated, before repentance?"
My apologies. On a second reading of what I responded to, I'm not sure why I answered as I did. It was a little beside the point.
 
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Mark Quayle

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"God’s omniscience permitted Him to perfectly foreknow, before any creation, A.) who would accept and follow Jesus"

Does God call all to repentance?
He even commands it.
 
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Greg Cheney

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He even commands it.
So in reference to the quote I tried to capture (I'm new here and trying to figure this out), if he foreknew who would follow Christ and who wouldn't, why does he call all to repentance? Who would try to talk someone into doing something he knew would never happen?
 
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RickReads

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"God’s omniscience permitted Him to perfectly foreknow, before any creation, A.) who would accept and follow Jesus"

Does God call all to repentance?

That is His will. The gospel is the call but it is not available to everyone, the Body of Christ still has a responsibility to fulfill. The gospel must be revealed to a person before anything can happen. Resistance to this spiritual principle is the big debate of this thread.

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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Greg Cheney

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That is His will. The gospel is the call but it is not available to everyone, the Body of Christ still has a responsibility to fulfill. The gospel must be revealed to a person before anything can happen. Resistance to this spiritual principle is the big debate of this thread.

So your claim is that God commands all to repent, but the call is not available to everyone?
 
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RickReads

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So your claim is that God commands all to repent, but the call is not available to everyone?

There are still a lot of people who have not heard about Jesus. As such they know not and have not received an opportunity to make a choice.
 
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Greg Cheney

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There are still a lot of people who have not heard about Jesus. As such they know not and have not received an opportunity to make a choice.

Ok, so you are saying that the call is not available to everyone in the sense that they have not yet heard? But if they hear, they can repent?
 
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RickReads

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Ok, so you are saying that the call is not available to everyone in the sense that they have not yet heard? But if they hear, they can repent?

That is the opinion expressed by the Apostle Paul in Romans 10 which I cited in message #2073
 
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Greg Cheney

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That is the opinion expressed by the Apostle Paul in Romans 10 which I cited in message #2073

I agree with you sir; I was asking because I have read some Calvinistic perspectives on here and I was wondering if you were in that camp. I think one of your responses to another post revealed that you are not, unless I am mistaken. I, for the record, am not in that camp. Thanks for answering.
 
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RickReads

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I agree with you sir; I was asking because I have read some Calvinistic perspectives on here and I was wondering if you were in that camp. I think one of your responses to another post revealed that you are not, unless I am mistaken. I, for the record, am not in that camp. Thanks for answering.

My views reflect the views of the Arminian side in this debate.
 
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