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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

TedT

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Romans 5:18 So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.
says all men are condemned to death when born into Adam, not that they inherited his sin...

Sinners who are sown, not created, into the world, Matthew 13:36-39, receive Adam's sentence of death so that Christ only has to die once for all sinful elect, that is, sinful people of the kingdom, and not over and over for each of them.
 
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Clare73

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Romans 5:18 So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.
says all men are condemned to death when born into Adam,
not that they inherited his sin...
Correct. . .I failed to distinguish between "inherited sin" and "imputed guilt," Adam being the pattern for Christ (Romans 5:14) where,
as Adam's guilt is imputed by birth to all those born of Adam (Romans 5:18),
so Christ's righteousness is imputed by faith (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24, Romans 4:2-3) to all those re-born of Christ (Romans 5:18b, 19b),
just as Abraham's righteousness was imputed by faith (Genesis 15:6).
Sinners who are sown, not created, into the world, Matthew 13:36-39,
Well, for that matter, the good seed (sons of the kingdom) is also sown (Matthew 13:37).
Sinners" (tares) are sown among the sown wheat--the two seeds of Genesis 3:15.
receive Adam's sentence of death so that Christ only has to die once for all sinful elect, that is, sinful people of the kingdom, and not over and over for each of them.
 
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zoidar

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The notion that God caused absolutely all things may be unpalatable, but to me it appears an inescapable logic. I do understand that it is not instinctive, and perhaps, with a counter-intuitive feel to experience. But, I think, to deny it is to claim not only that science and intuition has always been wrong about cause-and-effect (that it is pervasive), but it also implies that mere chance can determine things (which is logically self-contradictory).

I will just say that I don't agree that it's the inescapable logic. Cause and effect just explain some things, not all things. I'm sure you don't buy everything science comes up with. Our intuation says we have free will, we experience it, yet may deny it through the intellect. But if that is you conclusion through your reading of the Bible and logic, you are welcome to believe it. I just can't agree with your assessment (I hope i use that word correct). God is light and no darkness is within Him. If your view is correct, I think it tells a different story about God. If you find it unpalatable how can you believe it's true?
 
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zoidar

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Not that this is doctrine, nor can I say that I see it correctly, but I think there is something to it: It is possible that even the smallest motion or force of matter/energy is a very physical substance, that we call, "the love of God." (And no, haha, that isn't a Calvinist teaching). Such a thing would imply an awful lot, and explain an awful lot of things, that we have been discussing on this thread.

I don't fully get that, but it sounds optimistic...
 
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zoidar

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There is a whole lot more to Romans 7 than that, though yes, I agree, from vs 7 up to vs 25, that is what Paul describes rhetorically there. But in verse 25 we see that what came before it also applies to the sin nature, which in other places scripture says the sinful nature must constantly be put to death in the believer, which is possible because his body of death is not the same thing as his spirit —so he is no longer a slave.




"Received" is used different ways in the NT, some of them not at all implying choice or willed acceptance, nor necessarily implying permanence. (There is a difference, for example, between "being filled with the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of God taking up residence within me". They may happen simultaneously, and they can happen separately. "Being filled" is not necessarily permanent. But being his residence is permanent. In fact, there are places where it appears that the Spirit of God caused even unbelievers to, for example, prophesy.)

"Yet both dead in sin", and therefore unable to repent. If one dead in sin is convicted, he may know that he should repent and believe, but the 'how' escapes him. He may intellectually know how, but he remains unable to do so. He may even convince himself that he has done so, but has not. Even the Arminian claims that he is unable to do so apart from the work of the Spirit. But I say that repentance is nothing, apart from the Spirit of God working in me. If I am indwelt by the Spirit I will and I must repent. If I am not indwelt by the Spirit I should, but I cannot repent.

The part where this difference between Arminian and Calvinist is most stark, is more than simply a "Regeneration vs Prevenient Grace" argument; it is the rare fact of monergism vs synergism. Does man's "cooperation" mean what Arminians, when pressed as to just what they mean, must admit —that in fact the effort of man adds to the effort of God to effect a greater result than the work of God alone; it is a claim that man is able to improve on God's work, when Scripture attributes the whole business to God (this is the very definition of 'Grace'). The core behind even that, is the notion that fallen man is of himself able of himself to actually choose what God has not predestined to happen, and like it, that God must depend on, even wait for, the will of man to accomplish what God decides to do. As my wife insisted, "God cannot use me unless I obey him." But Scripture shows God accomplishing whatever he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants it to be done.

On this site, in other threads, I have had "freewillers" claiming Arminianism, tell me that choice is necessarily uncaused (or it is not real choice) and that all options from which a choice is made are necessarily equally (or at least, actually) possible to happen, (as opposed to just one being possible, and the others being presented to the mind as "possible"). But, if causation is pervasive, as logic insists, and since there can be only one first cause, both of those claims are illogical, bogus, false. And, I add, they are unscriptural.

Thanks for your reply! Right now I don't know what to ask. Yeah, I like to ask, your wife not a Calvinist?

Do you mean me asking God to save me before being regenerated so God will regenerate/save me is to improve on God's work? In that case how?
 
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zoidar

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There is no "common man" in the NT.
There are the unregenerate, who do not have the Holy Spirit, and the regenerate, who do.
That is all covered in John 3:3-8: "No one can see the kingdom of God until he is born from above."

.

Yes, I meant the unregenerated, I thought that was obvious.

Okay. . .taking your advice again. . .still not too sure why these need to be explained.
Is it not evident they present God sovereignly working within man to accomplish his purposes?

Genesis 20:6 - God worked in the disposition of Abimelech to keep him from sinning against God.
Exodus 3:21 - God favorably disposed the Egyptians toward Israel.
Exodus 14:17 - God hardened the hearts of the Egyptians.
Exodus 23:27 - God threw into confusion every nation they encountered.
Deuteronomy 2:25 - God put terror and fear of Israel on all the nations under heaven.
Deuteronomy 2:30 - God had made the spirit of Sidon king of Heshbon stubborn and his heart obstinate.
Joshua 11:20 - God himself hardened the hearts of the northern kings to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy.
1 Samuel 10:9 - God changed Saul's heart.
2 Samuel 24:1 - God incited David against Israel.
1 Kings 22:23 - God put a lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets.
1 Chronicles 5:26 - God stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, who took the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh into exile.
Ezra 1:1 - God moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm.
Ezra 1:5 - Then everyone whose heart God had moved prepared to go up and build the house.
Nehemiah 2:12 - . . .what my God had put in my heart to do for Jerusalem.
Nehemiah 7:5 - So my God put it in my heart to assemble the nobles. . .
Proverbs 21:1 - The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Ezekiel 14:9 - I, the Lord, have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him.
Daniel 1:9 - God has caused the official to show sympathy and favor to Daniel.
Daniel 11:36 - The king will do as he pleases. . .He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.
John 6:37 - All that the Father gives me will come to me.
Acts 2:23 - This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge (decree).
Acts 4:28 - They did what your power and will had decided beforehand (foreknowledge) should happen.
Acts 13:48 - . . .all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
2 Corinthians 8:16 - God. . .put it into the heart of Titus. . .
Revelation 17:17 - God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled.

Ergo: God channels man's supposed free will wherever He desires.

And so much for the "rhetorical device (list of Scriptures) invariably concealing its failure of support."
That is so trite.

Brings an old Arab proverb back to mind.

I see you put a lot of effort to post many verses, but you are still not explaining them. To explain them you need to answer things like: What they mean? Why do you believe they mean this? And show how you come to this conclusion.

Let's take this verse from your first post, I have seen you use a couple of times.

John 3:3-8: "No one can see the kingdom of God until he is born from above"

Then answer things like: What do you mean by "see the kingdom of God"? Why do you believe it means this? Why do you think repentance comes after and not before being born from above? Don't just quote other verses, then you need to explain them too.
 
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RickReads

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Yes, I meant the unregenerated, I thought that was obvious.



I see you put a lot of effort to post many verses, but you are still not explaining them. To explain them you need to answer things like: What they mean? Why do you believe they mean this? And show how you come to this conclusion.

Let's take this verse from your first post, I have seen you use a couple of times.

John 3:3-8: "No one can see the kingdom of God until he is born from above"

Then answer things like: What do you mean by "see the kingdom of God"? Why do you believe it means this? Why do you think repentance comes after and not before being born from above? Don't just quote other verses, then you need to explain them too.

Let`s try these,

  1. Matthew 19:28
    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
  2. Titus 3:5
    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The word regeneration appears twice in scripture. When Jesus used it, He was referring to the resurrection and the time when all judgment will be completed and all creation is going to be
renewed. When Paul used it He was referring to the moment when sins are washed away by the Spirit of Christ. Any other use of this term is unbiblical.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Yes, you are right...but even Satan got created into a perfect creation with a perfect ability to be faithful to GOD but not us!!!

There is NO reason, let alone even a bad one, for GOD to create HIS bride and church inheriting the sins or the effects of sinfulness of another's choice to sin. The mind boggles...
Maybe you have listened to too many preachers who have butchered the Biblical text in order to preach their own opinions. When God created the world, it was perfect until Adam disobeyed God's direct instruction. Sin came into the world through Adam. Satan was not created along with the creation, he was created a very long time before creation. He invaded creation to tempt Adam and Eve to sin to blight and corrupt what God had created.
 
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This is a better analogy than mine but don't forget, the people in the house by the circumstances of their conception / birth (ie their creation) CANNOT hear the smoke alarm and CANNOT see the fire escape nor come to realize its usefulness UNLESS the Father opens their minds to HIM and their situation! If HE was going to do that for them anyway, why make them live in a burning house when even HIS greatest enemy got to burn his own hose down by his own free will choice??? !!
There is a vast difference between God's definition of predestination, which is based upon God's love, justice, righteousness; and the Muslim definition which is based on fatalism according to Allah's unalterable and non-negotiable will. God's definition enables prayer to change things, while the Muslim cannot change anything but has to accept that what is destined to happen will happen. But Allah is not Yahweh. Yahweh is the God of the Bible, while Allah is no god at all.
 
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TedT

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Adam's guilt is imputed by birth to all those born of Adam (Romans 5:18),

Having Adam's guilt imputed to us does not make an innocent person (innocent of any choice to sin) to become a sinner any more than having Christ's righteousness imputed to sinners makes us fully righteous with no need for any sanctification!

The only people born into Adam to have his guilt imputed to them were already sinners by their own free will decision to sin against GOD when they were sown, not created, by conception into mankind, Matt 13:36-39. His guilt and death imputed to them do not create them or make them to be sinners (GOD cannot create evil!*) but show them to be already sinners and allows Christ to die but once for all elect sinners.

Imputation of guilt or righteousness changes only how GOD sees and treat us, imputation does not change our condition from innocent to evil nor evil to innocent or fully sanctified!!

*
Light cannot create darkness.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell...so HE would never create a sinner by any means at all.
 
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TedT

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TedT

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When God created the world, it was perfect until Adam disobeyed God's direct instruction.
Yeah, right, only if you ignore the one thing wrong that was corrected and the four other things that hinted at a sinful state in HIS creation which should move us to redefine 'very good'...

First, a note about there being no PROOF verses such as a stick in your eye type of proof. Even Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you...is explained away by the orthodox folk who have had 4000 years to puzzle out alternative meanings for these HINTS to the doctrine of our pce which may be the theology that is to be hidden till the end times.


Sin in the Garden prior to the eating of the fruit:

1. Adam was being rebellious to seek his mate amongst the animals. Not only was it not good (lo tov) that Adam was alone but this was corrected by the arrival of Eve before things were finally called very good.

But why was Adam looking for a helpmeet among the animals in the first pace?? GOD knew HE had Eve planned so an animal wasn't in HIS plans at all. Who thought of the idea to look among the animals for his helpmeet anyway?? Certainly it was not GOD! So if Adam was righteous and faithful, it seems logical that GOD would say, "Not here, bud, I got a woman for you!" Why did GOD let him go through the charade of looking amongst the animals for his helpmeet if Adam was not being rebellious?

2. The root word for Adam and Eve being naked and the serpent being crafty in an evil is the same word, `rm.* They can be read the opposite, ie, Adam and Eve were crafty and the serpent was naked if so desired. The vowels that make them to be naked or crafty were not put into the writing until ç600AD. The reason the Rabbis and the Church Father's chose naked for Adam and Eve was their decision that all mankind was created at conception (traducianism) or at birth (creationism of the soul), so as newly created in the garden they had to be innocent since GOD does not create evil...[at least until HE wants evil people so HE supposedly created the rest of us in Adam's sin but that is a different blasphemy].

*There is also a perfectly good word about Noah that describes the nakedness of being unclothed with absolutely no chance of thinking it meant evil.

Naked is a metaphor for evil in other parts of scripture. Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Where is the sin in being unclothed in your own garden as GOD made you? Even if naked refers to sex, how could it be sinful if they were commanded to procreate? No, the telling part of this verse is "They were not ashamed!". If there was no sin in being naked then why bring up shame? They were not over 12 feet tall either but there is no hint that they should be ashamed of that.

The reference to their shame is echoed in Rev 3:17-18, being a sinner is shameful but those blinded by sin need their eyes opened by the Lord's salve and their shame covered by white garments, the righteous acts of the saints, Rev 19:18.

It is also curious how, when their eyes were finally opened to their sin, they saw their being naked, a nakedness they had before they ate, not their eating. The only thing that happened when they ate was that they now saw their sinfulness / nakedness and were ashamed but their nakedness did not change in the least. So, if being unclothed is no sin, why did they suddenly become ashamed of their nakedness when they sinned?

3. Eve treats the serpent like a mentor or pastor. Is it not a sin to fraternize with a demon this way? IF she was innocent then why did GOD allow the serpent access to her and not warn her to beware of him? How can we consider HIM to be the most loving to this innocent girl, letting the serpent deceive her? BUT if she was already sinful and the serpent was her friend, a friend whom she had to learn to repudiate, then HE might have let the serpent deceive her to open her eyes to her own sinfulness and to the serpent's sin so she would never choose to follow him over her GOD ever again.

4. The bible is pretty clear that the law / commands are given to convict sinners of their sinfulness.
1 Tim 1:9...knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, etc... Why? Romans 3:20 For the Law merely brings awareness [convicts] of sin.
Thus for Adam and Eve to be given a command is an indication that they were sinners who needed their eyes to be opened to their sin by their failure to obey an easy command.

5. Adam was first to bring sin into the world. Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man...yet the serpent entered the garden with an evil nature and evil intent before Adam ate and Eve sinned by befriending him or at least by eating first so Adam was the third person to sin in the world. This contradiction is impossible unless he was already a sinner when he came into the world and brought his sin with him as the first person to be sown, not created as per Matt 13:36-39, ie, brought into the world by the breath of GOD.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Energy and matter are two forms of the same thing, like water and steam.
Matter can be completely changed into energy, which likewise means the reverse, which man has yet to do.
Right. I also meant to say smallest 'particle' besides, 'motion' and 'force'. There's a rather fitting feel to the fact that the Higgs Boson was dubbed "The God Particle" at the time it was.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Why are you answering a question with a question? Is that how you always conversate? Assuming you hold to Calvinistic teachings, you no doubt will claim that God knows because God ordains all that occurs. Which then means you would resort to the tired argument that when God says he commands "all men everywhere" to repent, he really means "all kinds of men." If my assumption is wrong I will gladly acknowledge it.
Sometimes it is fitting to answer a question with a question. The things implied by the first question may be obvious enough to induce the second, and so the conversation moves down the road a little more easily or at least, quickly.

As for your post, here, beginning with the third sentence, how does it follow from the fact that if a Calvinist believes that "...God knows because God ordains..." that the Calvinist "would resort to the tired argument that when God commands "all men everywhere" to repent, he really means "all kinds of men"? " I'm not seeing what the one has to do with the other, or why you relate them.

BTW, I believe God commands absolutely all men everywhere to repent. I do not believe the command implies the ability to obey.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Thanks for your reply! Right now I don't know what to ask. Yeah, I like to ask, your wife not a Calvinist?

Do you mean me asking God to save me before being regenerated so God will regenerate/save me is to improve on God's work? In that case how?

If you asking him, is why he saves you, yes. If he would not have regenerated you apart from your asking, yes.
 
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zoidar

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"Yet both dead in sin", and therefore unable to repent.

The mind of the flesh can't please God. That's true. But Romans 8 doesn't say the fleshly mind can't repent upon being convicted, just that the fleshly mind can't and doesn't want to follow the law of God. It can't keep Jesus commands (the 10 commandments of the law), it steals, lies, cheats, but upon conviction by the Holy Spirit it can repent and be regenerated - get a mind of the Spirit - that can and want to follow Jesus commands.
 
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Clare73

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I don't see a whole lot here that relates to the scriptures so not much entertainment value in trying to figure out what all this is supposed to mean. I`ll pass on responding because this is just a whole lot of bulk with very little substance.

Getting back to topic,I only have two major problems with Calvinism, maybe limited atonement as a third but I see that as a by-product of the two primary errors. I've been through my issues on this thread multiple times so I`m tired of the repetition and the lack of scripture in some of your posts i.e. this one.
The word of God is used for your "entertainment"?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Let`s try these,

  1. Matthew 19:28
    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
  2. Titus 3:5
    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The word regeneration appears twice in scripture. When Jesus used it, He was referring to the resurrection and the time when all judgment will be completed and all creation is going to be
renewed. When Paul used it He was referring to the moment when sins are washed away by the Spirit of Christ. Any other use of this term is unbiblical.
Yes and the calvinists spin on "regeneration" is not biblical. They have come up with their own version to support their doctrines.
 
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The word of God is used for your "entertainment"?
I don't think he meant what you said but I sure have seen some " entertaining " interaction of forums with some discussions. Many of which are far removed from any biblical truth so what is left is much more like entertainment then it is biblical truth and reality. Sometimes there is nothing but a bunch of mud slinging going on rather then a good dialogue discussing issues and differences in our beliefs/doctrines.
 
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