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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

John Mullally

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Ah yes, total depravity. I'm sure somewhere in the scriptures it must say something about what mankind is like. Oh yes Romans 3:11 thru 18 "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” But wait that was just the Apostle Paul (who wrote almost half on the New Testament), so lets see what God the Son has to say and THAT should settle it. Matthew 15:19 "“For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Hmm, nuttin good there either? Nope, we are rotten to the core.

I feel sorry for your God, a God who is a slave to man's sinful free will. If our free will tells us to get saved, we get saved (of course satan will have something to say about that, like NO you are not!) And if our free will says "I love to sin more than righteousness" then we stay unregenerated. Eve used her free will in the Garden of Eden instead of following God's revealed will and we now reap the whirlwind of it. Death, wars, destruction, sin, murder, rape, adultery, abortion, lies, homosexuality, sexual perversions galore, lies, stealing and the list goes on and on. King Saul lost his kingdom because he followed his free will and not God's revealed will (1 Samuel 15:9.)

So you are worried about God's will in leaving some people in total depravity. We were all in total depravity at one point in our lives and then God "chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4) God in His sovereignty decided to save some of us and He left the rest to their own devices and you are questioning Him for doing that? The clay has no right to question the Potter about what the Potter makes from the same lump of clay, either a thunder mug or a water pitcher. (See Romans 9:21.) Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory." Meaning? If God chooses to glorify Himself through letting people go their own way (free will) and letting them righteously receive His wrath so as to make His power known, who can oppose Him? He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy. As well, if God desires to be more than fair with others, showing them His mercy, who can oppose Him? God is sovereign. We do not have the right to question His authority to do as He wishes with His creation.

1 Timothy 2:4 "[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." So we have two choices, since God desires ALL to be saved ALL will be saved, 100%! Hell will only be inhabited by satan and his demons. That means that Judas made it, even though Jesus said he didn't in John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." So ALL didn't make it. Millions die every day and go to a Christless grave. Neither of my parents were saved, neither was my older sister or brother, and I'm sure you know of people that were not saved when they died.

Two, it means the gospel must be presented to ALL without reservation, Jews and Gentiles, Kings and knaves, rich people and poor people, males and females, young and old, famous and not famous people, ALL must be presented with the gospel because Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. The God of the Holy Scriptures is like that, sorry about yours.
Calvinists use inductive reasoning to formulate their 'Total Depravity' by showing a laundry list of scriptures depicting man's corrupted nature. That is not sufficient. Calvinist 'Total Depravity' goes beyond saying that man is corrupt - it says that man's corruption is at a level he is unable to repent in response to the Gospel while under the influence of the Holy Spirit without having his nature changed first (i.e. what they call regeneration and others call the new birth).

If Calvinist 'Total Depravity' is an important truth I believe there will be at least two scripture passages showing that man must undergo 'transformation', 'the new birth' or 'regeneration' before he can respond in repentance to the preaching of the Gospel under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Just because God desires all people to be saved does not mean they are - man is subject to judgment. Look on-line, even John Piper and John MacArthur admit that God desires all to be saved - although I don't agree with much else they preach. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 provide strong evidence that God desires all to be saved.
 
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RickReads

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No, I don't! I'm fine with the answer that the Bible isn't giving us the answer. But you go on saying the Bible does give the answer to my question. That's where I have a problem.

The reason I posted about this was as a defense to the belief of free will. Trying to show that Calvinism and Armininism has a similar problem.

What problem for Arminianism? Please clarify.
 
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AVB 2

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Concerning Arminianism it's the question Mark Quayle posted. Something like why A is "choosing" Christ but not B. What is it with A that makes him do the better choice, is A better than B? Is it chance? The answer is, I have no idea why, other than I believe free will is involved. So I see that as a similar dilemma as we have in Calvinism where we don't know why God creates A for heaven but not B.

The reason that A "chooses" Christ (actually he didn't, he was chosen by God long before he was born) was determined before the foundation of the world according to Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as He [God] hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." B was not chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Our free will would never allow us to choose righteousness over sin. Eve in the Garden of Eden knew God's revealed will as found in Gen 3:2-3 "And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it..." So it was very clear to Eve; don't eat of the tree in the midst of the garden. So did Eve follow God's will or did she use her free will? You already know the answer.

Romans 9:15 “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” God is sovereign and He doesn't check with our free will before He acts. A god that will not violate our free will is not the God of the Holy Scriptures. Why would any Christian pray a prayer like this: Oh God hear my prayer for my first born son. He is not a believer, he thinks God is a figment of man's imagination and evolution is how this world began 4.5 billion years ago. I want you to change his mind, but as an Arminian I realize that You cannot influence his beloved free will in any way shape or form because his free will is much more important to You than is saving his soul from eternal damnation. Amen.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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I agree completely. It is surprising how God does what he does, often with the mundane, ordinary means, when we would prefer that he do the spectacular.

When I said the main difference between Arminianism and Reformed Theology was the Gospel of Grace, I was perhaps not entirely accurate, because the main difference is really that mindset behind that false Gospel,

that necessarily must separate our activity from God's activity —a notion that is denied emphatically by both Scripture and Reason, not merely by the simple fact that God is the first cause of all fact, but particularly in the unity of the believer to God, that no good is done by us but by God in us.
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I deleted all but this, which I will comment on: And you did say perhaps not entirely accurate, because the main difference is really that mindset behind that false Gospel. I doubt seriously if you know the mind set of many others, although that may just be observation.

But when it comes to grace, as I say below, by grace through faith, is true.
Speaking only from my own post, go back and show where I ever posted any of what you say: One can easily find that whenever I mention salvation, if I took it from the beginning I would say that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. I have also stated that it is the word of God that deals with the heart of man by the work of the Holy Spirit through His word in the heart that brings conviction that I needed Jesus Christ as my Savior. I have shown that faith comes by hearing the word of God. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. Even showed Isa 55: 6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.7Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.10For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, 11 so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.

I could add more but this is sufficient to show the means of conviction is from the Lord by the working of the Holy Spirit through the word which produces the faith which is offered by His grace as I stated above. Plus, I do not think you singled me out nor even mention by name, but felt included, not being of reformed mind set, but to jab a little, but a mind set of rightly dividing the word.
:amen: OR OH ME?
 
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zoidar

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What problem for Arminianism? Please clarify.

Why did I come to Christ, but not my friend F. Why did I "choose" Christ, but not F? We both have free will. But why did I do the better choice? The dilemma as I see it is we believe we have free will, but we don't know why some "choose" Christ, others not.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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God chose Jimmy and not Clark because He is God and God does what He wants to do. Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in heaven— he can do whatever he wants!" Romans 9:18-23 "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory."

As you can easily see we are not permitted to question God's sovereign choices. God will take some people from a lump of clay and make a beautiful pitcher to hold drinking water and the rest of that exact same lump he makes into a thunder mug. (Google that if you don't know what that is.) He is God. We are not. My suggestion is Do not question His authority to do what He wants to do with His creation. To me those who question God about His sovereign choices are treading on very thin ice.

Now we know God hardens sinners, but we need to look at how and why? With Calvinist leanings, you would say men can not come to Jesus unless they are drawn. That it is His sovereign choice. Let’s look at:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.​


It is certainly a choice that God makes, but look at what it is a choice between.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​


The fact is God enlightens those who respond to His love, and the redemptive message He has given.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."​


He hardens, i.e. does not reveal Himself, to the one who once seeing the light goes on in his sins.

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.​

As we see here it is man’s choice between, coming to the light or withdrawing from it.


Joh 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

The passage you quote where Paul states:

Rom 9:18-21 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?​


Is not God saying, “shut up man, I am God”. It is a reply to those people who dishonor His word by not acting in love for Him and His words. The blinded could have an objection, but it is not valid objection. For they were given a chance. As we see from John above.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.​

It is not just the bible that presents this idea the Earliest Church Fathers maintain the free will of man in regard to salvation:

Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 [A.D. 120-202]

5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)​


Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.​
 
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Clare73

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Concerning Arminianism it's the question Mark Quayle posted. Something like why A is "choosing" Christ but not B. What is it with A that makes him do the better choice,
The same thing that it is in John 3:3-8. . .the sovereign Holy Spirit regenerating when and where he pleases, working in the disposition giving one to prefer God's will, which he freely and voluntarily chooses because it is what he prefers.
A better than B? Is it chance? The answer is, I have no idea why, other than I believe free will is involved. So I see that as a similar dilemma as we have in Calvinism where
we don't know why God creates A for heaven but not B.
Scripture answers your question, but it seems you don't like the answer and won't accept it,
which answer is: because it pleases him to do so. . .period.
 
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RickReads

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Concerning Arminianism it's the question Mark Quayle posted. Something like why A is "choosing" Christ but not B. What is it with A that makes him do the better choice, is A better than B? Is it chance? The answer is, I have no idea why, other than I believe free will is involved. So I see that as a similar dilemma as we have in Calvinism where we don't know why God creates A for heaven but not B.

Ok, I get it. Arminians believe everyone has a chance. It's a matter of having freewill to choose sin instead of choosing Christ. The elect are chosen because they choose to respond to His voice.

I think you are accepting Mark's argument instead of examining actual Arminian doctrine.

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
 
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RickReads

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Why did I come to Christ, but not my friend F. Why did I "choose" Christ, but not F? We both have free will. But why did I do the better choice? The dilemma as I see it is we believe we have free will, but we don't know why some "choose" Christ, others not.

I grappled with this issue for many years. I dropped that back of bricks when I found the path away from the blindness of Calvinism. My answer is in post 1888
 
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zoidar

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The same thing that it is in John 3:3-8. . .the sovereign Holy Spirit regenerating when and where he pleases, working in the disposition giving one to prefer God's will, which he freely and voluntarily chooses because it is what he prefers.

Scripture answers your question, but it seems you don't like the answer and won't accept it, which answer is: because it pleases him to do so. . .period.

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with liking, accepting or not liking, not accepting what answer scripture gives.
 
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Clare73

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Calvinists use inductive reasoning to formulate their 'Total Depravity' by showing a laundry list of scriptures depicting man's corrupted nature. That is not sufficient.
"Scripture is not sufficient" to explain unregenerate man's complete inability to please God
(Romans 8:8), as
"Gravity is not sufficient" to explain why what what goes up must come down.
 
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Calvinists use inductive reasoning to formulate their 'Total Depravity' by showing a laundry list of scriptures depicting man's corrupted nature. That is not sufficient. Calvinist 'Total Depravity' goes beyond saying that man is corrupt - it says that man's corruption is at a level he is unable to repent in response to the Gospel while under the influence of the Holy Spirit without having his nature changed first.

If Calvinist 'Total Depravity' is an important truth I believe there will be at least two scripture passages showing that man must undergo 'transformation', 'the new birth' or 'regeneration' before he can respond to the preaching of the Gospel under the direction of the Holy Spirit in repentance.

Just because God desires all people to be saved does not mean they are - man is subject to judgment. Look on-line, even John Piper and John MacArthur admit that God desires all to be saved - although I don't agree with much else they preach. 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 have proven to be difficult to refute.

If God desires that all will be saved, all will be saved. Close the churches, call all the missionaries home and forget about evangelism! God desires all to be saved therefore all will be saved! God always gets what He desires right? After all He is God almighty. Did He desire Adam and Eve to sin? Did He desire to send Christ to die a horrible and painful death at Calvary? No, but He did allow it. Why? To erase the effects of man's free will. Perhaps "all" means all kinds of people; Jews and Gentiles, kings and knaves, rich and poor, freemen and slaves, men and women, famous people and not famous people, ALL must be saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Cannot God override a man's free will? The God of the Holy Scriptures in not some wimp wringing His hands in heaven hoping against all hope that someone somewhere will use their free will to humbly receive Christ. No, He is sovereign over absolutely everyone and everything 100% of the time. Absolutely nothing happens that He has not already predestined to happen, including man's salvation. The Arminian says that God will not violate man's free will which makes God subservient to mankind's sinful free will. William Henley said "I am the master of my fate; the Captain of my soul." Henley was wrong, God is our Master and our Captain. So what did Christ accomplish at Calvary? The possibility that some may receive Him and gain eternal life? Or did His works actually save many from damnation.
Salvation is always the work of God on behalf of man and never a work of man on behalf of God.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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And they start with sovereign regeneration by his sovereign Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8).

When do spiritually dead men (Ephesians 2:1) spiritually cooperate?

Not according to Jesus in John 3:3-8.

And not according to Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Read the rest of John 3

Perfect example when the dead to Christ come to life; by grace through faith just like this John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
 
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zoidar

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I grappled with this issue for many years. I dropped that back of bricks when I found the path away from the blindness of Calvinism. My answer is in post 1888

I believe we have free will. To me that's the only way to make sense of the existence of sin. But I don't understand how it works. Well, I have some ideas...
 
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Clare73

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Why did I come to Christ, but not my friend F. Why did I "choose" Christ, but not F? We both have free will. But why did I do the better choice? The dilemma as I see it is we believe we have free will, but we don't know why some "choose" Christ, others not.
We have limited free will, we are not free to make all moral choices.
We cannot choose to be sinless--to never sin in thought, word or deed.

Nor does the human will operate in a vacuum.
It's not about the will, it's about the disposition, where the preferences and likes reside, which governs the will.

You came but not your friend, because the Holy Spirit gave your, and not your friend's, disposition to "prefer" it, and our will chooses what we prefer, like.
 
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John Mullally

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If God desires that all will be saved, all will be saved. Close the churches, call all the missionaries home and forget about evangelism! God desires all to be saved therefore all will be saved! God always gets what He desires right?
As I said previously, I suggest you look on-line and you will find that John Piper and John MacArthur saying that God desires all to be saved. Those are the leading Reformists - they are YOUR leaders. Put your gun down.
 
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zoidar

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We have limited free will, we are not free to make all moral choices.
We cannot choose to be sinless--to never sin in thought, word or deed.

Nor does the human will operate in a vacuum.
It's not about the will, it's about the disposition, where the preferences and likes reside, which governs the will.

You came but not your friend, because the Holy Spirit gave your, and not your friend's, disposition to "prefer" it, and our will chooses what we prefer, like.

It's not a very fun story. 39 years old, died from heart attack. I gave him a Bible. I doubt he ever opened it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Here is my rephrase: “Escaping the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” implies “escaping the influence of the prince of the power of the air”. Both the "prince of the power of the air" and the “god of this world” are terms for satan.
Yes, I know who "the prince of the power of the air" and "god of this world" is. My point was that what we escape is his dominion over us, not his influence, though granted, "escape" could be used in the sense that we are no longer captives to his influence. I'm hoping that is all you meant.
 
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Clare73

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It's not a very fun story. 39 years old, died from heart attack. I gave him a Bible. I doubt he ever opened it.
Yeah, that hurts.

But there will be no tears in heaven.
 
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Mark Quayle

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As I said previously, I suggest you look on-line and you will find that John Piper and John MacArthur saying that God desires all to be saved. Those are the leading Reformists - they are YOUR leaders. Put your gun down.
Do John Piper and John MacArthur, (our purported esteemed leaders), qualify that statement? Or do they mean by it the same thing you do?
 
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