What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Does not Matthew 20:28, "to give his life as a ransom for many" make clear which meaning of "all" is intended in 1 Timothy 2:6; i.e., "all without distinction," rather than "all without exception". . .seein' as Paul got his gospel from Jesus n' all (Galatians 1:11-12).

My view on Matthew 20:28 is that it refers to the many that receives him. Jesus' sacrifice is a ransom for everyone that receives him, but Jesus has still been punished for the sins of those that deny him . He is just not "a ransom for them" until they believe.

 

[Clare73]

My view on Matthew 20:28 is that it refers to the many that receives him. Jesus' sacrifice is a ransom for everyone that receives him, but Jesus has still taken the punishment for the sins of those that deny him . He is just not "a ransom for them" until they believe.

Does that not make God unjust, payment twice for the same debt, because the sinner will pay again in hell the penalty that Jesus has already paid?

Doesn't that make God cruel to Jesus, having to pay the price needlessly for someone else who will be paying it for himself anyway. . .laying all that suffering on Jesus for nothing?

 

[RickReads]

Does that not make God unjust, payment twice for the same debt, because the sinner will pay again in hell the penalty that Jesus has already paid?

Doesn't that make God cruel to Jesus, having to pay the price needlessly for someone else who will be paying it for himself anyway. . .laying all that suffering on Jesus for nothing?

If you are perishing in thirst, the bottle of water given by the Good Samaritan will do you no good unless you open it up and drink the water.

 

[Clare73]

If you are perishing in thirst, the bottle of water given by the Good Samaritan will do you no good unless you open it up and drink the water.

Jesus' sacrifice compared to a mere bottle of water?

Limps a little don't you think?

And I was asked to pay for a truck load of bottled water when there were only three people perishing on the road to whom to give it?

 

[RickReads]

Jesus' sacrifice compared to a mere bottle of water?

Limps a little don't you think?

And I was asked to pay for a truck load of bottled water when there were only three people perishing on the road to whom to give it?

I don't get what you're trying to say and it was just a very simple analogy.

John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[zoidar]

Does that not make God unjust, payment twice for the same debt, because the sinner will pay again in hell the penalty that Jesus has already paid?

There is only One payment for sin, a sinless sacrifice. The meaning of this sacrifice is to justify, and all who receives Christ are justified though his blood. Even the punishment for sin for the unbeliever has struck Jesus, the unbeliever still stands unjustified since he is not washed clean by the blood of the sacrifice through being clothed in Jesus, by the Holy Spirit.

I think like this: Jesus is punished on the cross for the sin of the world. Not like he was specifically punished for me when I was stealing a cup of coffee. More like a general sacrifice, punishment for sin (stealing, lying etc.) that washes a believer clean. So having a punishment for my sin won't help me unless I get the cleansing effect of that sacrifice. So Jesus being punished for "stealing" won't make God punish my sin twice. He was punished for the sin of stealing, not for my stealing specifically. My thoughts anyway...

Doesn't that make God cruel to Jesus, having to pay the price needlessly for someone else who will be paying it for himself anyway. . .laying all that suffering on Jesus for nothing?

Well, to me it's not needless since it gave them the possibility to be saved.

Jesus took the punishment for sin. He would have had to go through the same punishment even to just save one man. So no, Jesus didn't suffer more because he also was sacrificed for those that deny him, so it doesn't make God cruel.

P.s. God deals with us in present time, not from His foreknowledge.

 

[Clare73]

I don't get what you're trying to say and it was just a very simple analogy.

John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The subject is atonement of Jesus on the cross. . .not quite analogous to procuring a bottle of drinking water.

 

[John Mullally]

I don't get what you're trying to say and it was just a very simple analogy.

John 4:14
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

And you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

 

[RickReads]

The subject is atonement of Jesus on the cross. . .not quite analogous to procuring a bottle of drinking water.

Atonement is analogous to a drink of water as I have shown in my previous post.

 

[Clare73]

There is only One payment for sin, a sinless sacrifice. The meaning of this sacrifice is to justify, and all who receives Christ are justified though his blood. Even the punishment for sin for the unbeliever has struck Jesus, the unbeliever still stands unjustified since he is not washed clean by the blood of the sacrifice through being clothed in Jesus, by the Holy Spirit.
I think like this: Jesus is punished on the cross for the sin of the world. Not like he was specifically punished for me when I was stealing a cup of coffee. More like a general sacrifice, punishment for sin (stealing, lying etc.) that washes a believer clean. So having a punishment for my sin won't help me unless I get the cleansing effect of that sacrifice. So Jesus being punished for "stealing" won't make God punish my sin twice. He was punished for the sin of stealing, not for my stealing specifically. My thoughts anyway...

Well, to me it's not needless since it gave them the possibility to be saved.
Jesus took the punishment for sin. He would have had to go through the same punishment even to just save one man.

This we do not know.

So no, Jesus didn't suffer more because he also was sacrificed for those that deny him, so it doesn't make God cruel.

This we do not know.

P.s. God deals with us in present time, not from His foreknowledge.

God's foreknowledge is not about knowing what man is going to do, it's about executing what he knows he is going to do because he has decreed from the foundation of the world that he shall do it.

"those he foreknew (purposed ahead of time, like Jacob), he also predestined. . ." (Romans 8:29-30)

 

[Clare73]

Atonement is analogous to a drink of water as I have shown in my previous post.

Lacks adequate gravitas. . .

 

[Der Alte]

My view on Matthew 20:28 is that it refers to the many that receives him. Jesus' sacrifice is a ransom for everyone that receives him, but Jesus has still been punished for the sins of those that deny him . He is just not "a ransom for them" until they believe.

I think an analogy is appropriate here. I heard/read this several years ago.
A man wanted to go on an ocean cruise. He was not wealthy so he saved his money until he could afford the least expensive ticket. He took as much food with him as he was able to carry. He ate sparingly but it was not long until he was out of food. He waited as long as he was able but eventually he had to get some food. He went to the ship's dining room and sought out one of the people in charge. He explained his situation and said he would work for food.
.....The dining room worker asked to see his ticket. He examined it and said this ticket entitles you to eat at all the meals. Salvation is "for" all but all do not want it. God is a gentleman He will not force anyone to accept His salvation. I don't care how many verses Origen or Ilaria Ramelli twist out-0f-context.

 

[RickReads]

Lacks gravitas to be adequate. . .

No analogy is adequate. That's not a realistic expectation.

 

[Der Alte]

@Clare73 @RickReads
Where's the beef? Jesus compared the kingdom of heaven to a wayward son who wasted his inheritance.

 

[John Mullally]

"those he foreknew (purposed ahead of time, like Jacob), he also predestined. . ." (Romans 8:29-30)

The Jewish people at that time probably considered "those he foreknew" as being their ancestors and guys like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, etc. who knew God. It wasn't until the "doomed from the womb" talk that things got twisted up.

 

[RickReads]

@Clare73 @RickReads
Where's the beef? Jesus compared the kingdom of heaven to a wayward son who wasted his inheritance.

Clare is resisting my destruction of Calvinist doctrine by my proof that salvation is universally available. She is intelligent and understands the ramifications for Calvins.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Somone posted: God's foreknowledge is not about knowing what man is going to do, it's about executing what he knows he is going to do because he has decreed from the foundation of the world that he shall do it.

John 1:9-12 9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.


But to all who did receive Him He gave the right to become children of God

to all who did

 

[Der Alte]

Clare is resisting my destruction of Calvinist doctrine by my proof that salvation is universally available. She is intelligent and understands the ramifications for Calvins.

I understand just wanted you to be aware of this response. Jesus did not believe in UR.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, [kolasis] but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1 Cleenewerck, 1. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck. ​

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[2]​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal”
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”

 

[RickReads]

I understand just wanted you to be aware of this response. Jesus did not believe in UR.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church from its inception, 2000 years +/- ago. Who better than the team of native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] know the meaning of the Greek words in the NT?

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, [kolasis] but the righteous into eternal life.”[1]
1 Cleenewerck, 1. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 25:45-46). Laurent A. Cleenewerck. ​

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., the second occurrence is 1 John 4:18.

EOB 1 John 4:18 here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[2]​

Note the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars who translated the EOB translated “aionios” as “eternal”
The Greek word translated “punishment” in Matt 25:46 is “kolasis.” Some folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction” but according to the EOB Greek scholars it means “punishment.”

Oh please. I never said Jesus believed in Universal Salvation. I`m tired of your false accusations and wish you would stop stalking me on this website.

 

[RickReads]

?

WHAT! LOL. What's your question brother?