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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Clare73

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We went over this before. 1 Timothy2:1-6 only makes sense if Paul is speaking of all without exception. Christ propitiation is for all men (1 John 2:2, 1timothy 2:6, Romans 5:18).
Makes sense according to whom. . .the mind of man or the purpose of God?
It makes perfect sense just the way it is, if you understand it correctly.

Surely you are aware that Christ's propitiation is conditional for all men, it is only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," by faith declared righteous (justified) with the imputed righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:20-24) of Jesus Christ, just as Abraham's righteousness was imputed to him by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Christ's propitiation does not save all men because it is conditional, and not all men meet the condition.
Not all receive this promise by faith (Hebrews 4:1-2).
Correct, not all receive the promise of salvation by faith because not all believe.
 
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John Mullally

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Makes sense according to whom. . .the mind of man or the purpose of God?
1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God desires all to be saved. The purposes of God are in alignment with that.
 
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Clare73

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No need. Half the battle against Calvinism has been achieved. I don't care if you want to
tell yourself that you knew it all along.
???????
 
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ReverendRV

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Someone on my other Forum said,

It's not a work to obey God's command to believe.

I said...

The Commandments were not given for us to Keep, but to Prove we are Sinners. We are Commanded to Keep the Sabbath Holy; this is a Work under the Mosaic Covenant. All 316 Commandments and Ordinances are Works. This means the First Commandment is a Work. This is why no one can Keep the Commandment to not have any gods before HIM. The First Commandment means thou shalt have the LORD as your God. Without Grace, the Command to Obey the Gospel is a Work; because a Graceless Command belongs to a Covenant of Works...
 
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Clare73

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1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God desires all to be saved.
The purposes of God are in alignment with that.
And we find those purposes in which God does not fail in understanding all texts in the light of all the NT.

Does all mean "all without distinction" (Jews and Gentiles), or "all without exception" (everyone)?

In the context of:
Matthew 20:28:
"The Son of Man (came). . .to give his life as a ransom for many."

Revelation 5:9
:
"with your blood you purchased men for God from all tribes and languages and peoples and nations,"

and many other Scriptural statements (e.g.; John 3:18, John 3:36; etc.)

"all" in 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 means "
all without distinction"--from all tribes, languages, peoples and nations."

Not to mention it harmonizes that text with all the NT rather than setting that text against it, for the word of God does not contradict itself.
The purposes of God are in alignment with that.
The purposes of God are in alignment with the context of all Scripture, just as this verse also is when correctly understood.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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Someone on my other Forum said,

It's not a work to obey God's command to believe.

I said...

The Commandments were not given for us to Keep, but to Prove we are Sinners. We are Commanded to Keep the Sabbath Holy; this is a Work under the Mosaic Covenant. All 316 Commandments and Ordinances are Works. This means the First Commandment is a Work. This is why no one can Keep the Commandment to not have any gods before HIM. The First Commandment means thou shalt have the LORD as your God. Without Grace, the Command to Obey the Gospel is a Work; because a Graceless Command belongs to a Covenant of Works...

That answer that you stated about commandments are meant to keep is not well though out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!To many to quote, but these two sum them up; John 14:15 if you love Me, keep My commandments 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

You said: I said...

The Commandments were not given for us to Keep, but to Prove we are Sinners.
 
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atpollard

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1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God desires all to be saved. The purposes of God are in alignment with that.
1 Timothy 2 supports that within the context of the surrounding the verses.

The context of 2 Peter 3:9 is “usward”, making the “all” that God desires to be saved (and God’s delay of the end times) being a desire for “all those that will be saved” … past, present and future … rather than any statement of desire for universal salvation. Exegesis requires taking the verse in context to understand what is being said.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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1 Timothy 2 supports that within the context of the surrounding the verses.

The context of 2 Peter 3:9 is “usward”, making the “all” that God desires to be saved (and God’s delay of the end times) being a desire for “all those that will be saved” … past, present and future … rather than any statement of desire for universal salvation. Exegesis requires taking the verse in context to understand what is being said.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1 Tim 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
 
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atpollard

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What is wrong with Calvinism ?


Two big things:
  1. It does not actually exist. Far too many people make far too many false claims about what “Calvinism” is or teaches. Ultimately, it has nothing to do with John Calvin (that was a slander created by the Lutheran Church in the 16th Century to discredit reformers by claiming that they were following the teaching of a man rather than the Bible). It exists only as a shorthand for the 20th Century “TULIP” teaching on Sotierology (how God saves people). Too few people are willing to acknowledge that Reformed Sotierology (the heart of TULIP) is based on an honest exegesis of Scripture … even if you completely disagree with the Reformed understanding of those verses. From this springs both arguments of “unfairness” (which are human and not biblical) and misrepresentations of what the “Doctrines of Grace” (aka. TULIP or ‘Calvinism’) actually teach about salvation.
  2. It is only about “soteriology” (how people get saved), so many of the other arguments for and against points of Reformed Theology (like Predestination) fall outside of the scope of “soteriology”, thus having nothing to do with “TULIP” or so called “Calvinism”.

Thus any conversation that dives into “the Institutes” (John Calvin’s treatise on Theology) has already “jumped the shark” on the topic of “Calvinism/TULIP/Sotierology”.
 
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atpollard

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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1 Tim 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
“Any verse quoted out of context is a pretext” - a bible teacher.

You have successfully plucked individual verses from their context and strung them together, however real understanding of any verse requires reading it WITHIN its surrounding context. Since you offer no exegesis (commentary on the meaning of the verses) I have little to respond to except …

I agree with what God says and means. That is why I converted from Atheism to Particular Baptist in spite of the teaching of the RCC and Church of God which introduced me to Jesus and His Bible. I believe what I read in the Holy Bible.” - a.t. Pollard
 
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ReverendRV

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That answer that you stated about commandments are meant to keep is not well though out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!To many to quote, but these two sum them up; John 14:15 if you love Me, keep My commandments 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

You said: I said...

The Commandments were not given for us to Keep, but to Prove we are Sinners.
I would say when Jesus told people to Keep his Commandments, he was not telling them to Keep Moses' Commandments. In the New Testament, we have the Law of Christ; that's the Law he meant for us to Keep. We are Unable to Keep the Law of Moses; this is clear...
 
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Clare73

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Someone on my other Forum said,
It's not a work to obey God's command to believe.
I said...The Commandments were not given for us to Keep, but to Prove we are Sinners. We are Commanded to Keep the Sabbath Holy; this is a Work under the Mosaic Covenant. All 316 Commandments and Ordinances are Works. This means the First Commandment is a Work. This is why no one can Keep the Commandment to not have any gods before HIM. The First Commandment means thou shalt have the LORD as your God. Without Grace, the Command to Obey the Gospel is a Work; because a Graceless Command belongs to a Covenant of Works...
The commandments under the Mosaic covenant were given for them to keep, so that in trying to keep them they would realize they could never become righteous by law keeping (Romans 3:20).

The Decalogue is kept in the New Covenant by loving our neighbor.
He who loves has thereby fulfilled the law. . ."and whatever other commandment there may be." (Romans 13:8-10)

Sounds like the discussion on the other Forum was "faith vs. works," and someone claiming that faith was a work.

Works are performance. Faith is a disposition, and is not works, however, faith
produces works.
But it is the faith alone, apart from faith's works, that saves and justifies.
(Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28; Ephesians 2:8-9)
 
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Clare73

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What is wrong with Calvinism ? Two big things:
It does not actually exist. Far too many people make far too many false claims about what “Calvinism” is or teaches. Ultimately, it has nothing to do with John Calvin (that was a slander created by the Lutheran Church in the 16th Century to discredit reformers by claiming that they were following the teaching of a man rather than the Bible). It exists only as a shorthand for the 20th Century “TULIP” teaching on Sotierology (how God saves people). Too few people are willing to acknowledge that Reformed Sotierology (the heart of TULIP) is based on an honest exegesis of Scripture … even if you completely disagree with the Reformed understanding of those verses. From this springs both arguments of “unfairness” (which are human and not biblical) and misrepresentations of what the “Doctrines of Grace” (aka. TULIP or ‘Calvinism’) actually teach about salvation.

It is only about “soteriology” (how people get saved), so many of the other arguments for and against points of Reformed Theology (like Predestination) fall outside of the scope of “soteriology”, thus having nothing to do with “TULIP” or so called “Calvinism”.

Thus any conversation that dives into “the Institutes” (John Calvin’s treatise on Theology) has already “jumped the shark” on the topic of “Calvinism/TULIP/Sotierology”.
That's the clearest and most useful thing I've seen out here so far.

I've always suspected that whatever "Calvinism" was, it was not being accurately represented in most cases. They were making it too bizarre.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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“Any verse quoted out of context is a pretext” - a bible teacher.

You have successfully plucked individual verses from their context and strung them together, however real understanding of any verse requires reading it WITHIN its surrounding context. Since you offer no exegesis (commentary on the meaning of the verses) I have little to respond to except …

I agree with what God says and means. That is why I converted from Atheism to Particular Baptist in spite of the teaching of the RCC and Church of God which introduced me to Jesus and His Bible. I believe what I read in the Holy Bible.” - a.t. Pollard

So if they are out of context tell what the context is actually saying and why they would be out of context concerning the statements in "" :1 Tim 2:4 "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
Eze 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Eze 18:23 "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live"?
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, "declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel"?
 
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atpollard

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So if they are out of context tell what the context is actually saying and why they would be out of context concerning the statements in "" :1 Tim 2:4 "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".
Eze 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Eze 18:23 "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live"?
Eze 33:11 Say to them, As I live, "declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel"?
Would not the rest of 1 Timothy be the proper context for understanding 1 Timothy 2:4 rather than reading verses from Ezekiel to understand a single verse in 1 Timothy?

Your definition of “context” confuses me and you have still offered no exegesis (commentary or understanding on 1 Timothy 2:4) for me to respond to. What have I said about 1 Timothy 2:4 that you wish to take issue with? I barely remember offering ANY comments on it.

(I did offer commentary on the context of 2 Peter 3:9, but you seem to have taken no issue with my exegesis of that verse.)
 
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iwbswiaihl

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Would not the rest of 1 Timothy be the proper context for understanding 1 Timothy 2:4 rather than reading verses from Ezekiel to understand a single verse in 1 Timothy?

Your definition of “context” confuses me and you have still offered no exegesis (commentary or understanding on 1 Timothy 2:4) for me to respond to. What have I said about 1 Timothy 2:4 that you wish to take issue with? I barely remember offering ANY comments on it.

(I did offer commentary on the context of 2 Peter 3:9, but you seem to have taken no issue with my exegesis of that verse.)

My reply is below, don't know what I did, but my reply is in 978 or 979,
 
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iwbswiaihl

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Whether I responded directly at your text, I did show where in other text talking about the same subject that you mentioned in Timothy that your statement did not agree with the rest of scripture on the same subject. The word of God does not say in one passage something that is not the same meaning in another when it is on the same subject. Most people if we read the statements that are made usually will give references to show whether they agree with all of scripture or not, that was my purpose. Do you think the Holy Spirit inspired one writer and then inspired another on the same subject and they would not agree in context? I don't thing so, nor would many agree that there are contradiction in the word of God. Here are these 3 verses of your context passage, and feel free where they expand your thoughts which you think prove your point in context if you please:
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And in your explanation you make much to do of the word us-ward most if not all of these translation below use the word "patient", that is used by the King James translation, I did not find another that used us-ward, but I did check a couple of well known popular writers who give definitions of the words in the bible and here is what they say about the Greek word used in 2 Peter 3:9
#2248 ἡμᾶςTransliteration hēmâs Phonetics hay-mas' Parts of Speech pronoun Origin
accusative case plural of (G1473) KJV (177) - our, 2; us, 148; us-ward, 2; we, 25
Definition Thayer's
  1. us, we, our etc.
Strong's
Accusative plural of G1473; us: - our, us, we.
Here are several translations, notice the word(s) they use are mostly all "patient"
New International Version
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
New Living Translation
The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
English Standard Version
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Berean Study Bible
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
Berean Literal Bible
The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
King James Bible
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
New King James Version
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
NASB 1995
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
NASB 1977
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Amplified Bible
The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Christian Standard Bible
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
American Standard Version
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
THE LORD JEHOVAH does not delay his promises as people consider delay, but he is patient for your sakes, and because he is not willing that any person would perish, but that every person would come to conversion.
Contemporary English Version
The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.
Good News Translation
The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins.
International Standard Version
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent.New International Version
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
New Living Translation
The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.
English Standard Version
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Berean Study Bible
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.
Berean Literal Bible
The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
King James Bible
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
New King James Version
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
New American Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
NASB 1995
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
NASB 1977
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Amplified Bible
The Lord does not delay [as though He were unable to act] and is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is [extraordinarily] patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Christian Standard Bible
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
American Standard Version
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
THE LORD JEHOVAH does not delay his promises as people consider delay, but he is patient for your sakes, and because he is not willing that any person would perish, but that every person would come to conversion.
Contemporary English Version
The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.
Good News Translation
The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins.
International Standard Version
The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent.
 
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Der Alte

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“Any verse quoted out of context is a pretext” - a bible teacher. * * *
I must take issue with your out-of-context quote. It should read "A text without a context is a pretext. Just sayin';)
 
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FutureAndAHope

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I believe that the passage in Romans, that speaks of Isaac, is not speaking of God loving some and hating others. But rather is using the story as a picture to represent the "promise of faith". As in other writings, Paul refers to Isaac being a child of promise.

Gal 4:23-28 Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise... Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.


What is the promise, that of faith:

Gal 3:6-7 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.

To me it is not a matter of some people can not have faith, but rather those who respond in faith to God's call can become sons.

John 12:36 While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them.

Joh 1:9-12 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world ... But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry
 
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