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What is wrong with Calvinism ?

ReverendRV

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The renewal is a renewing of the regeneration. It is the Holy Spirit in us that gets renewed and renewing occurs post salvation.
I disagree with you friend, what you said would be Redundant; IE a Tautology. The Renewal is also Regeneration? I think the Verse draws a Distinction; why wouldn't the Verse say we are Saved by the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of Regeneration, if that's what it means?

Titus 3:5 NIV; he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

The distinction is drawn. The Renewal is the New Birth; IE becoming the New Creature. This comes after the Washing of Regeneration; all in the Twinkling of an eye...

Temporally speaking...
 
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ReverendRV

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Scripture doesn’t make that distinction but Calvinism does hence it’s unbiblical . Here is the biblical order as the new birth follows faith and repentance.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin, believe/faith
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit, new birth, born of the spirit, born again etc...

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
I have to disagree with you. Titus gives us the Logical Order. I would say that any Verse you can Post for your side, speaks of the Temporal Order. I think I will Hunker Down on the Logical and Temporal Orders for a while...

Wouldn't you agree that Ephesians 1:13 is speaking of the Temporal Order? Sure, you could say it also speaks of the Logical Order; but for now I'm sure you agree with me that it is the Temporal Order of things. When other Verses exist that also describe the Order but in opposition, this is when we need to start weighing them out as Categories between the Logical and Temporal Order of things...
 
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Clare73

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Just curious, if I could ask you if what you say here that the penalty is for the guilt of Adam and we are all condemned to what? Death or going into everlasting torment ?
Condemnation in the NT is to spiritual perdition; i.e., eternal death.
 
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Clare73

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I hear people saying this all the time but cannot find it in the bible, calling saints a sinner, where is that found in the bible? True that we still can and do sin but that doesn't do away with the fact that we are still saints, set apart in Christ Jesus unto eternal life. Sin does not have dominion over the saints, and we are not to yield to those temptations. We are still perfect in Christ and will never lose that position, and as Romans 1-3 says, 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh. No sinner is partaking in these verses only saints. V2 for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death, sinners do not have this blessing, only saints. We walk by faith and not by sight. The only 2 places in the N T where some show as proof text are actually talking about the lost, such as James 4:8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. At the end of this verse he mentions the double minded ones like in 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. I forget the other place right now. We need to learn to apply 2 Cor 5:7 we walk by faith and not by sight, Jesus set the saints apart and we are always saints, and as Phil 2:13 says, For it is God working in you to will and to obey, this is to be our goal and practice, though we do still commit sin but we will not shrink back and live habitually in sin or else we were like those in would said something like this 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. V3 uses keep whereas in chapter 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. With the Holy Spirit working in us to will and to obey our growth in His wisdom and knowledge should as we apply ourselves produce the practice of righteousness. We are saints, consecrated, set apart to the gospel because of what it says in Eph 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Saints forever more.
You've convinced me!

So all are sinners except the born again who are saints.

Any objections, anyone?
 
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Clare73

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No reply, could not find where to delete this, so: I will do what Adrion Rogers once say, when you lay an egg, step back and admire it, and move on, I am moving on.
You can't delete it, all you can do is erase it and leave something in its place.
 
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Clare73

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Paul said, "in my flesh", he did not include his spirit, something to contemplate don't you think? I see almost no differentiating between fleshly man and spiritual man around here.
Do you mean in theology or practice?
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 
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Clare73

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Well, yes. But Paul explains how He does it. Jesus says that "no man comes to the Father except by Me", and "there is no other name by which any can be saved except the name, Jesus Christ." This is what Paul preached - that those who would be saved need to believe that Jesus died for their sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead. If people don't believe in all three, then according to Paul their faith is in vain. So it is not just to believe in God in a general sense that saves anyone. It is believing the Gospel that Paul preached, not any other gospel.
Yes, he saves in remitting, by faith in and trust on Jesus and his atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25), their sin which Jesus paid for.
 
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Clare73

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I`m not using a man-made formula. Verses that talk about regeneration and renewal are salvific or else they are about sanctification. Renewal and regeneration are the work of the Holy Spirit. Show a verse that talks about a regeneration that occurs before someone hears about Jesus.
"And all that were appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48, in response to the preaching of Paul and Barnabas. See John 8:47.

They were ordained/appointed before they believed.
And to be clear I`m not talking about the draw or the knock at the door. Those things are not a regeneration.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Ephesians 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
 
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RickReads

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I disagree with you friend, what you said would be Redundant; IE a Tautology. The Renewal is also Regeneration? I think the Verse draws a Distinction; why wouldn't the Verse say we are Saved by the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewal of Regeneration, if that's what it means?

Titus 3:5 NIV; he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

The distinction is drawn. The Renewal is the New Birth; IE becoming the New Creature. This comes after the Washing of Regeneration; all in the Twinkling of an eye...

Temporally speaking...

Paul said, "I die daily." and he was talking about dying out to self on a daily basis. We need to be renewed in Jesus Christ every day if we are to live out Romans 8. it's a wonderful thing that we can have but we cant do that on our own.
 
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RickReads

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"And all that were appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48, in response to the preaching of Paul and Barnabas. See John 8:47.

They were ordained/appointed before they believed.

Predestined yes. Presaved no.
 
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Clare73

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Clare this is what I am getting from your post:
Is that all is needed is Scripture?
Why I said what I said (without reason):
Hermeneutics has been around since written material as it is grammar, context, application...
Thanks.

But I am speaking of the modern hermeneutics used today, originating in the 19th and 20th centuries,
developed for human literature, which the divine literature of the word of God got along very well without for 19-20 centuries, and which has limited applicability to the meaning of the Biblical text.
God chose to use written form to communicate to us and that is the object where all peoples in all times can, with proper study, arrive at the same truth... to put further requirement upon The Holy Spirit to magically place the truth into each heart is mysticism and
taking the responsibility placed upon man and man trying to put it back on God!
The "responsibility placed upon man" is not executed by modern hermeneutics, but by the whole counsel of God interpreting itself in its own light.

The mechanics of modern hermeneutics developed for human literature has no divine light to bring to the word of God written, which has its own hermeneutic-- the whole divine counsel of God.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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Yes a "command" for believers to walk in the spirit. Jesus said if you really love Him you will obey His commands. And John says the exact same thing as Jesus above and adds this: and His commands are not burdensome.

1 John 5:3
Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome

hope this helps !!!
True, John 14:15 if you love Me keep My commandments; 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Of course, you know there are many more; we can overcome yielding to the flesh and should for the remainder of our lives; but will never reach our goal of never yielding to the flesh, that is until we reach our heavenly home with the Lord. And I as typed these last few words I had a thought that I had never contemplated, when the saints are reigning with the Lord in the 1000 years it would seem that we will not sin then because we have a new body, just off the top of my head, I would think not,what say you?
 
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Clare73

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True, John 14:15 if you love Me keep My commandments; 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Of course, you know there are many more; we can overcome yielding to the flesh and should for the remainder of our lives; but will never reach our goal of never yielding to the flesh, that is until we reach our heavenly home with the Lord. And I as typed these last few words I had a thought that I had never contemplated,
when the saints are reigning with the Lord in the 1000 years it would seem that we will not sin then because we have a new body, just off the top of my head, I would think not,
what say you?
I say that is a personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle, subject to more than one interpretation, and which personal interpretation is in disagareement with NT apostolic teaching that the saints are reigning with the Lord now (Ephesians 1:20-23, Ephesians 2:6) and, therefore, is an incorrect interpretation.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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I say that is a personal interpretation of a prophetic riddle, subject to more than one interpretation, and which personal interpretation is in disagareement with NT apostolic teaching that the saints are reigning with the Lord now (Ephesians 1:20-23, Ephesians 2:6) and, therefore, an incorrect interpretation.
Maybe so, actually I do not believe there is a text that would cover the thought that I expressed, at least I cannot think of it. thanks for your input.
 
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misput

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My point is that renewal in the Holy Spirit can only occur after regeneration/salvation/circumcision of heart/baptism in the holy spirit/Jesus through the door.
That is not what I asked, read it again, please.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I have to disagree with you. Titus gives us the Logical Order. I would say that any Verse you can Post for your side, speaks of the Temporal Order. I think I will Hunker Down on the Logical and Temporal Orders for a while...

Wouldn't you agree that Ephesians 1:13 is speaking of the Temporal Order? Sure, you could say it also speaks of the Logical Order; but for now I'm sure you agree with me that it is the Temporal Order of things. When other Verses exist that also describe the Order but in opposition, this is when we need to start weighing them out as Categories between the Logical and Temporal Order of things...
The order is a Calvinist thing . Belief in the gospel always precedes the new birth . One believes the gospel first and regeneration, salvation follow the faith and repentance of the person trust-in in Christ as per Romans 10:9-15 and John 1:12-13.
 
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iwbswiaihl

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"And all that were appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48, in response to the preaching of Paul and Barnabas. See John 8:47.

They were ordained/appointed before they believed.
They were ordained/appointed before they believed. This is what I question, I Acts 48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. All this is saying is that these many believe what Paul and Barnabas had said, therefore, they were born again. Because that is what is taught in many places of the word of God, like Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Is this your same point? My old mind was confused with your point, if it is the same as mine, forgive me and I will give you like on your post.
 
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Clare73

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They were ordained/appointed before they believed. This is what I question, I Acts 48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. All this is saying is that these many believe what Paul and Barnabas had said, therefore, they were born again. Because that is what is taught in many places of the word of God, like Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Is this your same point? My old mind was confused with your point, if it is the same as mine, forgive me and I will give you like on your post.
In the text, didn't the appointment to eternal life occur before they believed?

All who had been appointed (prior) believed (currently).
 
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