What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Thanks, but I mean a Reformed resource that says Regeneration is Salvation before Faith...

Believe me, I don't wanna get on your nerves asking for a resource. I appreciate your contributions...

Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “The Reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again.” (Chosen By God, p.72,
Sproul adds: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ Our nature is so corrupt, the power of sin so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ.” (Chosen By God, pp.72-73, )

 

[ReverendRV]

Take this test, please. Walk me through the steps to salvation beginning with the state of depravity.

Depravity can be described as Native Depravity, Total Depravity, Nominal Depravity and Utter Depravity. Native Depravity speaks of our Natural disposition as Sinners because of the Unconditional Consequences of Original Sin. Total Depravity speaks of just how invasive Sin is in our Being; there is no unaffected area, including the Will. Utter Depravity means we are as Sinful as we can be; like Satan, or when we are in Hell. Nominal Depravity is the State of a Born Again Christian who has Remaining Sin...

The first part of the Gospel presentation is the use of the Ten Commandments to expose a person's Native Depravity. The Gospel Presentation is not meant to include the Doctrines of Total or Utter Depravity. Exposing Depravity is the first Work of the Evangelist...

 

[ReverendRV]

Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “The Reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again.” (Chosen By God, p.72,
Sproul adds: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ Our nature is so corrupt, the power of sin so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ.” (Chosen By God, pp.72-73, )

Amen; and thanks for that. I do not see him saying that Prevenient Regeneration is Salvation though...

 

[ReverendRV]

Reformed sources are quoted in the article. I wouldn't hand you propaganda

Sorry, I didn't see them. I trust your intentions...

 

[ReverendRV]

Depravity - by ReverendRV

Romans 7:18 NET; For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it.

Last weekend a couple of Church friends tragically died in a murder suicide. They had moved away and fallen on hard times in their marriage. There is no need to disparage the dead by laying blame, what’s done is done. At the end of the day the husband had shot his wife three times then put the gun to his own head. ~ When it came time to comfort those left behind, it felt like there were many we could call a “Job’s friend”; someone that tries to help but it’s almost an impossible situation. How can you comfort the husband’s loved ones without offending the wife’s survivors?? And then there are those who loved both of them; imagine what they are going through? One of the most confusing things about this is that it was said the husband was into his Bible every day; how does a real Christian do something like this?? ~ I found myself examining the situation and it lead to the obvious thoughts of my mortality, but that wasn’t what seemed to be bothering me; the situation lead me to think of my Depravity. Even the likes of Saint Paul said that nothing good lived inside of him…

What is Depravity? Depravity is the Sinful part of our Human Being. Paul called it ‘Remaining Sin’ or ‘the Old Man’ we used to be, lurking within us. It is the part of us that loves Sin. ~ Have you ever stolen anything? What do you call a person that steals? Have you ever committed Adultery? What would you call someone who had an affair with YOUR spouse? Have you ever Coveted? You ask, “What is Coveting?”. Coveting is loving something that belongs to someone else SO much that you conspire ways to take it; like stealing and seducing. The Love of money is a root of all kinds of evil; Theft and Adultery have roots in the rock hard ground of your heart, reaching depths you cannot fathom. These are only three of the Ten Commandments, if God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Be honest, Lying to yourself means that you are coveting your life but in a Sinful manner. God sends guilty Sinners to the Lake of Fire for their Crimes; does this bother you?

There is only one way to never go to Hell and that is by The forgiving Grace of God, through Faith in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ; and without conspiring your own way of escape! Jesus lived a perfectly good life; he’s the only person who has ever lived and heard God say that he was pleased with him. Jesus came from Heaven to earth to be THE sacrifice for the whole world, a sacrifice that paid the fine for our Sin; this is called Propitiation. He shed his blood and died on a cross, taking punishment from God for us, so we wouldn’t have to take it. He was buried but after three days he arose alive, teaching believers all the things that were written in the Bible about him. Confess Jesus as your Lord, Repent of your Sin and find a Bible believing Church. ~ NOW there is Good in you, but it’s not in your flesh; it is your Spirit. You are born again but the New Man wars with the Old man you used to be; you are no longer Totally Depraved but it is clear that you’re still Depraved. Nail your remaining Sin to the cross of Christ and carry your figurative cross daily. Never forget that you’re a Sinner, and don’t give the Devil a chance to showcase your Depravity for the whole world to see…

Galatians 5:24 NIV; Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

 

[RickReads]

Amen; and thanks for that. I do not see him saying that Prevenient Regeneration is Salvation though...

born again means saved, and so does regeneration both are same thing and he said this has to happen before a person can choose Christ. changed heart also is the same thing.

 

[ReverendRV]

born again means saved, and so does regeneration both are same thing and he said this has to happen before a person can choose Christ.

Amen...

I agree with that Logical Order. I describe it like this; our Fallen Deeds are like a boy polishing his mother's dining room table with his father's grease rag. The Bible calls our Fallen Deeds "Filthy Rags". We can only smear everything we do because or rags are filthy like a grease rag. Hitler had a Filthy-Rag faith; Christ never knew him. This is why Christianity teaches that Grace is Prevenient; not Faith...

 

[misput]

I mean that because of Sola Scriptura, I have to believe every Verse of Scripture Prima Facie...

Does this mean when in Genesis the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to be understood as a literal tree which bears fruit which if eaten will give one the knowledge of good and evil? If not, please explain.

 

[ReverendRV]

Does this mean when in Genesis the tree of knowledge of good and evil is to be understood as a literal tree which bears fruit which if eaten will give one the knowledge of good and evil? If not, please explain.

That's what it means...

I am THAT Christian...

 

[misput]

That's what it means...

I am THAT Christian...

That's what most bible thumpers believe : ) Thanks

 

[RickReads]

Amen...

I agree with that Logical Order. I describe it like this; our Fallen Deeds are like a boy polishing his mother's dining room table with his father's grease rag. The Bible calls our Fallen Deeds "Filthy Rags". We can only smear everything we do because or rags are filthy like a grease rag. Hitler had a Filthy-Rag faith; Christ never knew him. This is why Christianity teaches that Grace is Prevenient; not Faith...

And what you are telling me is that salvation occurs before we even believe.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Don't forget. . .everyone is born condemned (Romans 5:18).

The penalty is not for unbelief.
The penalty is for the guilt of Adam imputed to everyone (Romans 5:18).

Belief is how you avoid the penalty.
No belief. . .the penalty gets applied.

Just curious, if I could ask you if what you say here that the penalty is for the guilt of Adam and we are all condemned to what? Death or going into everlasting torment ?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “The Reformed view of predestination teaches that before a person can choose Christ his heart must be changed. He must be born again.” (Chosen By God, p.72,
Sproul adds: “A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ Our nature is so corrupt, the power of sin so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ.” (Chosen By God, pp.72-73, )

I know you are posting to this poster, but if you would when you get the time, you are saying that regeneration precedes faith, is that right or is that just what you are quoting from R C Sproul?

I disagree that is Calvinism. Do you have a Source which says Calvinism teaches that Regeneration is Justification before Belief in the Truth? I know you don't like to use resources, but I would need one to believe THAT is Calvinism...

Just for the record I do not believe this, just showing this search about your topic:

I noticed you'all discussing this and here is what I found on a search:
Reformed theologians … place regeneration before faith, pointing out that the Holy Spirit must bring new life before the sinner can by God’s enabling exercise faith and accept Jesus Christ (Killen, “Regeneration,” 1449).

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I know you are posting to this poster, but if you would when you get the time, you are saying that regeneration precedes faith, is that right or is that just what you are quoting from R C Sproul?
Just for the record I do not believe this, just showing this search about your topic:

I noticed you'all discussing this and here is what I found on a search:
Reformed theologians … place regeneration before faith, pointing out that the Holy Spirit must bring new life before the sinner can by God’s enabling exercise faith and accept Jesus Christ (Killen, “Regeneration,” 1449).

Regeneration is the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit, the new birth hence it is salvation prior to belief and repentance in Calvinism .

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Depravity - by ReverendRV

Romans 7:18 NET; For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I want to do the good, but I cannot do it.

Last weekend a couple of Church friends tragically died in a murder suicide. They had moved away and fallen on hard times in their marriage. There is no need to disparage the dead by laying blame, what’s done is done. At the end of the day the husband had shot his wife three times then put the gun to his own head. ~ When it came time to comfort those left behind, it felt like there were many we could call a “Job’s friend”; someone that tries to help but it’s almost an impossible situation. How can you comfort the husband’s loved ones without offending the wife’s survivors?? And then there are those who loved both of them; imagine what they are going through? One of the most confusing things about this is that it was said the husband was into his Bible every day; how does a real Christian do something like this?? ~ I found myself examining the situation and it lead to the obvious thoughts of my mortality, but that wasn’t what seemed to be bothering me; the situation lead me to think of my Depravity. Even the likes of Saint Paul said that nothing good lived inside of him…

What is Depravity? Depravity is the Sinful part of our Human Being. Paul called it ‘Remaining Sin’ or ‘the Old Man’ we used to be, lurking within us. It is the part of us that loves Sin. ~ Have you ever stolen anything? What do you call a person that steals? Have you ever committed Adultery? What would you call someone who had an affair with YOUR spouse? Have you ever Coveted? You ask, “What is Coveting?”. Coveting is loving something that belongs to someone else SO much that you conspire ways to take it; like stealing and seducing. The Love of money is a root of all kinds of evil; Theft and Adultery have roots in the rock hard ground of your heart, reaching depths you cannot fathom. These are only three of the Ten Commandments, if God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Be honest, Lying to yourself means that you are coveting your life but in a Sinful manner. God sends guilty Sinners to the Lake of Fire for their Crimes; does this bother you?

There is only one way to never go to Hell and that is by The forgiving Grace of God, through Faith in his only begotten Son Jesus Christ; and without conspiring your own way of escape! Jesus lived a perfectly good life; he’s the only person who has ever lived and heard God say that he was pleased with him. Jesus came from Heaven to earth to be THE sacrifice for the whole world, a sacrifice that paid the fine for our Sin; this is called Propitiation. He shed his blood and died on a cross, taking punishment from God for us, so we wouldn’t have to take it. He was buried but after three days he arose alive, teaching believers all the things that were written in the Bible about him. Confess Jesus as your Lord, Repent of your Sin and find a Bible believing Church. ~ NOW there is Good in you, but it’s not in your flesh; it is your Spirit. You are born again but the New Man wars with the Old man you used to be; you are no longer Totally Depraved but it is clear that you’re still Depraved. Nail your remaining Sin to the cross of Christ and carry your figurative cross daily. Never forget that you’re a Sinner, and don’t give the Devil a chance to showcase your Depravity for the whole world to see…

Galatians 5:24 NIV; Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I hear people saying this all the time but cannot find it in the bible, calling saints a sinner, where is that found in the bible? True that we still can and do sin but that doesn't do away with the fact that we are still saints, set apart in Christ Jesus unto eternal life. Sin does not have dominion over the saints, and we are not to yield to those temptations. We are still perfect in Christ and will never lose that position, and as Romans 1-3 says, 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh. No sinner is partaking in these verses only saints. V2 for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death, sinners do not have this blessing, only saints. We walk by faith and not by sight. The only 2 places in the N T where some show as proof text are actually talking about the lost, such as James 4:8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. At the end of this verse he mentions the double minded ones like in 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. I forget the other place right now. We need to learn to apply 2 Cor 5:7 we walk by faith and not by sight, Jesus set the saints apart and we are always saints, and as Phil 2:13 says, For it is God working in you to will and to obey, this is to be our goal and practice, though we do still commit sin but we will not shrink back and live habitually in sin or else we were like those in would said something like this 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. V3 uses keep whereas in chapter 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. With the Holy Spirit working in us to will and to obey our growth in His wisdom and knowledge should as we apply ourselves produce the practice of righteousness. We are saints, consecrated, set apart to the gospel because of what it says in Eph 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Saints forever more.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

No reply, could not find where to delete this, so: I will do what Adrion Rogers once say, when you lay an egg, step back and admire it, and move on, I am moving on.

 

[John Mullally]

And sometimes they fall on the floor and convulse. But to each his own.

Not funny

 

[misput]

No reply, could not find where to delete this, so: I will do what Adrion Rogers once say, when you lay an egg, step back and admire it, and move on, I am moving on.

 

[misput]

I hear people saying this all the time but cannot find it in the bible, calling saints a sinner, where is that found in the bible? True that we still can and do sin but that doesn't do away with the fact that we are still saints, set apart in Christ Jesus unto eternal life. Sin does not have dominion over the saints, and we are not to yield to those temptations. We are still perfect in Christ and will never lose that position, and as Romans 1-3 says, 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh. No sinner is partaking in these verses only saints. V2 for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death, sinners do not have this blessing, only saints. We walk by faith and not by sight. The only 2 places in the N T where some show as proof text are actually talking about the lost, such as James 4:8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. At the end of this verse he mentions the double minded ones like in 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. I forget the other place right now. We need to learn to apply 2 Cor 5:7 we walk by faith and not by sight, Jesus set the saints apart and we are always saints, and as Phil 2:13 says, For it is God working in you to will and to obey, this is to be our goal and practice, though we do still commit sin but we will not shrink back and live habitually in sin or else we were like those in would said something like this 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. V3 uses keep whereas in chapter 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. With the Holy Spirit working in us to will and to obey our growth in His wisdom and knowledge should as we apply ourselves produce the practice of righteousness. We are saints, consecrated, set apart to the gospel because of what it says in Eph 2:10 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Saints forever more.

Paul said, "in my flesh", he did not include his spirit, something to contemplate don't you think? I see almost no differentiating between fleshly man and spiritual man around here.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actually, it is God who saves people. . .right?

Well, yes. But Paul explains how He does it. Jesus says that "no man comes to the Father except by Me", and "there is no other name by which any can be saved except the name, Jesus Christ." This is what Paul preached - that those who would be saved need to believe that Jesus died for their sins, was buried, and rose again from the dead. If people don't believe in all three, then according to Paul their faith is in vain. So it is not just to believe in God in a general sense that saves anyone. It is believing the Gospel that Paul preached, not any other gospel.