What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

That's what it means...

I am THAT Christian...

I want to bring this quote to your attention, copied from another member.

Reformed theologians … place regeneration before faith, pointing out that the Holy Spirit must bring new life before the sinner can by God’s enabling exercise faith and accept Jesus Christ (Killen, “Regeneration,” 1449).

 

[ReverendRV]

And what you are telling me is that salvation occurs before we even believe.

Not really, I am telling you that Justification through Faith Alone is Salvation Proper. It seems you are telling me that Regeneration is our Justification; not Faith. It's True that Faith Alone is Justification for every Believer; I would never tell you otherwise. Since Faith Alone is Justification, you shouldn't be trying to tell me I believe Regeneration is my Justification in the sight of God. I do not believe Regeneration is Justification; please keep this in Mind, and read the next Post...

Why do you think Regeneration is Salvation Proper for All Believers? Is it because you believe the First Factor of Salvation must be Salvation Proper? The Protestant Reformation fought and died for the belief in Justification through Faith Alone; right? So why would they believe Regeneration is Justification?

 

[ReverendRV]

Regeneration is the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit, the new birth hence it is salvation prior to belief and repentance in Calvinism .

I disagree. The New Birth is the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Human Spirit; a two fold action. Washing without Renewing is nothing. We are told if the Holy Ghost casts out a spirit, cleanses, but does not indwell; more spirits will return. The human spirit is Washed through Regeneration and Renewed by the Holy Ghost through Faith all at one time; the Temporal Order is a simultaneous Act of One New Birth. It is also the Logical Order; Regeneration occurring before Renewal... @Clare73

 

[RickReads]

Not really, I am telling you that Justification through Faith Alone is Salvation Proper. It seems you are telling me that Regeneration is our Justification; not Faith. It's True that Faith Alone is Justification for every Believer; I would never tell you otherwise. Since Faith Alone is Justification, you shouldn't be trying to tell me I believe Regeneration is my Justification in the sight of God. I do not believe Regeneration is Justification; please keep this in Mind, and read the next Post...

Why do you think Regeneration is Salvation Proper for All Believers? Is it because you believe the First Factor of Salvation must be Salvation Proper? The Protestant Reformation fought and died for the belief in Justification through Faith Alone; right? So why would they believe Regeneration is Justification?

I`m not using a man-made formula. Verses that talk about regeneration and renewal are salvific or else they are about sanctification. Renewal and regeneration are the work of the Holy Spirit. Show a verse that talks about a regeneration that occurs before someone hears about Jesus. And to be clear I`m not talking about the draw or the knock at the door. Those things are not a regeneration.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Ephesians 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

 

[misput]

I disagree. The New Birth is the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Human Spirit; a two fold action. Washing without Renewing is nothing. We are told if the Holy Ghost casts out a spirit, cleanses, but does not indwell; more spirits will return. The human spirit is Washed through Regeneration and Renewed by the Holy Ghost through Faith all at one time; the Temporal Order is a simultaneous Act of One New Birth. It is also the Logical Order; Regeneration occurring before Renewal... @Clare73

Sounds like a lot of chicken and egg, I love m both : )

 

[RickReads]

I disagree. The New Birth is the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Human Spirit; a two fold action. Washing without Renewing is nothing. We are told if the Holy Ghost casts out a spirit, cleanses, but does not indwell; more spirits will return. The human spirit is Washed through Regeneration and Renewed by the Holy Ghost through Faith all at one time; the Temporal Order is a simultaneous Act of One New Birth. It is also the Logical Order; Regeneration occurring before Renewal... @Clare73

The renewal is a renewing of the regeneration. It is the Holy Spirit in us that gets renewed and renewing occurs post salvation.

 

[RickReads]

Sounds like a lot of chicken and egg, I love m both : )

Not really. You are regenerated when the Spirit of Christ walks through the door of your heart. Your renewal is maintenance/sanctification. It occurs after we are saved and should occur daily if you are spiritually healthy.

 

[RickReads]

So why would they believe Regeneration is Justification?

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 Corinthians 5:5

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I disagree. The New Birth is the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Human Spirit; a two fold action. Washing without Renewing is nothing. We are told if the Holy Ghost casts out a spirit, cleanses, but does not indwell; more spirits will return. The human spirit is Washed through Regeneration and Renewed by the Holy Ghost through Faith all at one time; the Temporal Order is a simultaneous Act of One New Birth. It is also the Logical Order; Regeneration occurring before Renewal... @Clare73

Scripture doesn’t make that distinction but Calvinism does hence it’s unbiblical . Here is the biblical order as the new birth follows faith and repentance.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin, believe/faith
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit, new birth, born of the spirit, born again etc...

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2 Corinthians 5:5

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Eph 1
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Amen

 

[enoob57]

Seems to leave out the Holy Spirit?

The written Word is the work of the Holy Spirit!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I`m not using a man-made formula. Verses that talk about regeneration and renewal are salvific or else they are about sanctification. Renewal and regeneration are the work of the Holy Spirit. Show a verse that talks about a regeneration that occurs before someone hears about Jesus. And to be clear I`m not talking about the draw or the knock at the door. Those things are not a regeneration.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Ephesians 4:23
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

ditto

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Paul said, "in my flesh", he did not include his spirit, something to contemplate don't you think? I see almost no differentiating between fleshly man and spiritual man around here.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

What is says is true, and as we read the whole chapter we will see the whole context, but I will show the paragraph starting from Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. I would think it clearly shows that the saints that are walking in the spirit at the time will win many victories over the flesh, I may have been missing your point, you may have been thinking the same. Have a great day.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What is says is true, but if we read the whole chapter we will see the whole context, but I will show the paragraph starting from Gal 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. I would think it clearly shows that the saints that are walking in the spirit at the time will win many victories over the flesh, I may have been missing your point, you may have been thinking the same. Have a great day.

Yes a "command" for believers to walk in the spirit. Jesus said if you really love Him you will obey His commands. And John says the exact same thing as Jesus above and adds this: and His commands are not burdensome.

1 John 5:3
Loving God means keeping his commandments, and his commandments are not burdensome

hope this helps !!!

 

[enoob57]

Thanks.

There are several reasoned statements there that could be addressed.

Clare this is what I am getting from your post:
Is that all is needed is Scripture?
Why I said what I said (without reason):
Hermeneutics has been around since written material as it is grammar, context, application... God chose to use written form to communicate to us and that is the object where all peoples in all times can, with proper study, arrive at the same truth... to put further requirement upon The Holy Spirit to magically place the truth into each heart is mysticism and taking the responsibility placed upon man and man trying to put it back on God!
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Clearly God has placed the responsibility upon man to take His Word and take the truth it contains to establish faith that can please God and Yes The Holy Spirit's work is The Scripture...
Romans 10:17 (KJV)
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Hebrews 11:6 (KJV)
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

God's Word has always been the battle since satan fell and it is the final judge of all things
John 12:48 (KJV)
[48] He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

So when people use religious platitudes all I need is The Bible and The Holy Spirit I see this as without Biblical understanding or reason...

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I want to bring this quote to your attention, copied from another member.

Reformed theologians … place regeneration before faith, pointing out that the Holy Spirit must bring new life before the sinner can by God’s enabling exercise faith and accept Jesus Christ (Killen, “Regeneration,” 1449).

Which is the opposite teaching from the prophets, Apostles and Jesus.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I'm confused.

Below I will remove any doubts or confusion you might have in thinking tulip is true and its not. Calvinism is not true, its deception. It all stands or falls upon each letter the tulip represents. I know as I was a calvinist for over 4 decades defending these doctrines of grace ( tulip ). And one of the most famous calvinists of all Spurgeon went on record saying that tulip is the gospel. That is blatantly false and as Paul says in Galatians 1 another gospel and adding to the gospel itself these man made doctrines of grace.

Resistible Grace ( refuting calvinisms " I " irresistible grace )

Acts 7:51

“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.


Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.


Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!


Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,


Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."



Limited Atonement ( the " L " in tulip )


John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.


Loraine Boettner ( a Calvinist scholar ) has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,


"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."


1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

 

[RickReads]

Sorry, I didn't see them. I trust your intentions...

Do you like the pro-Calvin verse I put up? It's a daisy. Post 662.

Let's roll.

 

[misput]

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

To have a renewing of the Holy Spirit in salvation, indicate having the Holy Spirit at some point in the past?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 12:2&version=KJV

 

[RickReads]

To have a renewing of the Holy Spirit in salvation, indicate having the Holy Spirit at some point in the past?

My point is that renewal in the Holy Spirit can only occur after regeneration/salvation/circumcision of heart/baptism in the holy spirit/Jesus through the door.